Let's get ready to rumble!!!

[Spanky Ham]

Tomorrow Chuck and I will have 15 round fight for the World Speakerweight Championship. :rofl: In his corner is the DIY Dayton RS TMWW speakers and in my corner will be the PSB Stratus Golds. This should be lots of fun to see how each speaker compares to each other. The PSBs have been highly regarded for years and have been heard by quite a few people. Hopefully, the comparison will provide some observations that people can use make an informed decision on whether they would like to pursue the DIY route.

Any ideas on this comparison, please feel free to throw them in the ring. This is at Chuck's place, so we will be using his equipment. I am going to throw my ADA amp in the van along with the speakers.

[kingpin]

Chuck with a 2nd round KO. :B

[SteveCallas]

Of course you'll want to position them 1212, and even though the sonic signatures will probably be very distinct, it would be great if someone else did the switching and you guys didn't know which pair was playing when, though the familiarity each of you have with your own speakers might be a dead giveaway.

[Jim Holtz]

Tomorrow Chuck and I will have 15 round fight for the World Speakerweight Championship. :rofl: In his corner is the DIY Dayton RS TMWW speakers and in my corner will be the PSB Stratus Golds. This should be lots of fun to see how each speaker compares to each other. The PSBs have been highly regarded for years and have been heard by quite a few people. Hopefully, the comparison will provide some observations that people can use make an informed decision on whether they would like to pursue the DIY route.

Any ideas on this comparison, please feel free to throw them in the ring. This is at Chuck's place, so we will be using his equipment. I am going to throw my ADA amp in the van along with the speakers.

What do PSB Stratus Gold's sell for these days? That might also be enlightening to see how the RS 3-ways stack up sound and price wise.

Jim

[seattle_ice]

What do PSB Stratus Gold's sell for these days? That might also be enlightening to see how the RS 3-ways stack up sound and price wise.

Jim

MSRP for the Gloss Black is/was $2899. I think the average street value is ~$2000-2400 or so.

[ssabripo]

having heard the PSB's before, and having heard CHuck's in person, I predict Chuck's DIY RS 3-way by way of 8th rd TKO

[jonathanb3478]

Will you guys be measuring them both? (read: Please measure them both!)

[chasw98]

Here's what they look like and where we are listening. We are not measuring because of the time factor involved. (I was rushed all week with work projects, house emergencies, etc. and did not get it together). It is 4:07 PM Sunday July 16, 2006 and we are listening right as we speak. I will post no thoughts, but one of us can't believe some things they are hearing. Go DIY!

[yousuredo2]

hip, hip ...
hurray !!!

Please share thoughs ect...
for the rest of us...

[Spanky Ham]

Sigh, it is to bad what happened to the DIY speakers by the PSBs. :smackbutt: Chuck was so upset that he took them outside and set them on fire. :blowup:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Let me start by saying that I have owned these Stratus Golds (regular no i) for six years. I bought them off Audiogon for $1000 and think I have gotten my moneys worth. They have been well reviewed and I don't believe I have heard a negative comment about them ever.

First, we set them up with the DIYs on the inside and the PSBs on the outside. We listenend to a test demo CD for about half a hour switching between speakers. Chuck then decided to plug in one of each at the same time. This provided an interesting comparison between the two. I should also mention that Chuck equalized the sound levels with his meter during the demo. The DIYs are more efficient.

After listening to them, I think both Chuck and I agree that the DIYs are better. The PSBs cross at 250 to a 10" woofer ported for the low frequencies and the DIY uses two 8" woofers sealed for the lows. The biggest differences were right here. The DIYs sounded more natural and had better dynamics than the PSBs. It wasn't huge but it was noticeable. The midrange and tweeter has better clarity, which we both recognized with some cymbals. The difference here between the two was much smaller though. I think one could hear the human voice male and female a touch better, but definitely not night and day.

After the test, we discussed the relative merits of the speakers. The DIYs are better, but by how much? Not enough for me to ditch my PSBs. Matter of fact, one can buy these pre-built PSBs (I think the going rate on the bay is $750 to $1000) for not to much more the cost of these speakers. If you are into DIY, then the Dayton speakers may be the better option for you. One caveat for me is if I decided to change my HT layout. Depending on how good the center speaker is, I could opt for a larger screen and use the five or six centers for a speaker set up. In the end, these are better speakers. One could build five or six of these towers for a HT set up and not have to apologize to anyone including the Wilson fan boys. :T

Several questions did arrise from this demo. Have drivers not advanced that much since these speakers were designed? Were the PSBs that well thought out in crossover and driver design that they have aged this well? Conversely, what does this say about the PSBs if the DIYs can be done this inexpensively? Is there more performance to be had from these speakers?

P.S. - Chuck wants a mirror black finish on the top of these speakers. I may be able to accomodate him with my leather finishes. I have a patent leather gloss that may give him the mirror he is looking for.

[jkrueger]

Sealed or Ported

This is cool. I am very familiar with the PSB Golds. They are fantastic speakers. I am wondering if the Dayton DIYs were ported or sealed.

[WillyD]

They are sealed.

[peterS]

id expect them to preform better ported
or am i missing something?

[jkrueger]

Interesting comparison

Was your perception of the bass response from the sealed Daytons equal to that of the ported PSBs?

[chasw98]

Here are my thoughts and impressions:

After listening to a Lyle Lovett tune (Baltimore, I believe) on the WWMT's, I paused and switched to the PSB's. To me there was an immediate difference. The difference was in the lo to lo-mid frequency range and the upper range. The mid range portion was virtually identical. The lo to lo-mid had better control of the driver, was more dynamic, and had a more solid feel to it. I believe it was due to the use of 2 drivers in a sealed cabinet. The PSB's seemed to have a little bit more "slop" in the bottom end.

The high frequencies stood out as being clearer. Not louder but more definition. Both units use a metal dome tweeter BTW. This became even more apparent when we hooked up one DIY on the right channel and one PSB on the left channel. During a jazz piece where there was a lot of cymbal work going on, the definition was clearer. Just to check we reversed the channels and listened again. Same results.

The PSB's sounded very good and the differences between the two speakers were not very far apart from each other. They are very comparable speakers. But, had I heard these 2 pairs in a hi fi demo room, I would have immediately picked the DIY's, there was that kind of difference. It was noticable from the beginning and there was no debate about it.

The PSB's have been around for a good number of years so it's kind of like comparing an '05 model year to a '91. OTOH, the PSB's held their own for a 15 year old speaker. They did sound good. They were a well engineered speaker. I believe that once you reach a certain quality/build level with speakers there is a point of diminishing returns. It is hard not too talk about comparisons like this without mentioning the almighty dollar because that is a common reference for judging items like this. So I won't :T

I don't have the ability to write all the flowery things that those paid reviewers keep in their tool box of embellishment sentences that describe loudspeakers and equipment so well that you think you have heard what they are writing about. I don't know that any graphs would tell anything about comparing the speakers except that the listening area needs some help. As Eric said, we came to the conclusion that solid engineering with a little art thrown in and current driver technology can account for most of the differences between the two systems. When you take into account the fact that a commercial manufacturer has to make a profit, usually some corners will be cut somewhere. When you build DIY, you cut your own corners. But it sure is neat when you've built something that compares to more expensive manufactured, mass produced items and compares well both in operation and fit and finish.

[ssabripo]

ok, so it wasn't a TKO in the 8th round, but a 116-112 Unanimous decision :lol:

alright, so the next fight would be to pair these bad boys to a pair of Swan Diva 6.1s, right chuck??

[SteveCallas]

Chuck, then me after him :B Nice work guys.

[Brian Bunge]

If the 6.1's sound anything like the entry level towers (4.1's?) then there will be absolutely no contest. I've heard the 4.1's before and am very familiar with the PSB's. The PSB's beat them hands down, so I'd expect the same from these DIY speakers.

[jonathanb3478]

What (would either/both of you estimate) was the lowest frequency range present, in force, in the source material you used in this comparison?

If that is a non-starter, in what track of what album would you say the lowest content (again, present in force) existed, and when in that track would you say it occurred?

Just trying to get a better handle on what was actually compared.

Thanks! :T

[jonathanb3478]

Boy, I will never tire of seeing the front of your completed RS TMWW's, Chuck. 8)

The PSB's seemed to have a little bit more "slop" in the bottom end.

It would not surprise me if a good portion of that difference was the result of a comparison between a "young" driver and an "old" driver that has just "loosened up" over the (many) years of its life. Thoughts/ideas/flames?

[Jim Holtz]

It would not surprise me if a good portion of that difference was the result of a comparison between a "young" driver and an "old" driver that has just "loosened up" over the (many) years of its life. Thoughts/ideas/flames?

My money says it's the differences in a new ultra low distortion metal cone driver Vs. an older design driver not to mention, the differences in sound quality between ported and sealed designs. Sealed typically is tighter and cleaner sounding to my ears. :T

Jim

[ssabripo]

If the 6.1's sound anything like the entry level towers (4.1's?) then there will be absolutely no contest. I've heard the 4.1's before and am very familiar with the PSB's. The PSB's beat them hands down, so I'd expect the same from these DIY speakers.

very different speaker Brian....the drivers (sans tweeter and the one mid) and the XO's are different.

anyhow, Chuck has heard them at my house...they are pretty slick, and therefore the reason I chose them over the likes of Rockets 750s, Axiom M60ti, Paradigm Studios, B&W 704s, energy veritas 2.4i, and many others I auditioned over a year ago.

I'm kinda interested to see how they sound side by side with Chuck's, because I love both of them, and was planning on building the mains as well (got the CC done as you know)...... what I heard at Chuck's place was awesome, good soundstaging, excellent clarity, etc.... but sounded very much like my Swans as well, so I gotta see what the deal is side by side to see if there is a "business case" to go with this design, or something else.

[---k---]

Chuck,

Cool review. Could you tell me what the finished price was for the pair.

It would be nice to get an locked archive thread of these A/B demos. It seems like every week over at AVS there is someone posting a thread asking if DIY can really hold it's own. So far, from your impressions and my own when Chris brought over his RS150 MTM that we compared to the Ascend 340SEs, my answer would be a resounding yes.

[Brian Bunge]

very different speaker Brian....the drivers (sans tweeter and the one mid) and the XO's are different.

I certainly hope so. The 4.1's were absolutely awful. If the center blends well with your 6.1's then I'd have to say that the 6.1 is a much better speaker than the 4.1.

[chasw98]

There seems to be more interest in this than I would have thought at first.

ssabripo: Bring your swans over and we will have a go at it. With enough notice, I will set up A/B switching and measurement capabilities.

SteveCallas: One of these days it will happen. We WILL be in the same place, same time, with speakers, amps, and measuring tools! Can't wait!

jonathanb3478: I would estimate that there was some low 30ish Hz on one or two of the cuts we listened to. I keep the discs handy so next time I hear the tune, I will jot down the song and album title for you.
Thanks for the compliment!

Jim Holtz: I find your perceptions to be 100% correct. And you know what music we were using, don't ya?

----k----: I would say I probably spent close to $800.00 for the pair. I "splurged" on some extras like router bits I needed to do some parts just the way I wanted to, unclad FR4 circuit boards and hardware for the crossovers, oak veneer to finish them, etc. I would say that if a person could live with basic black speakers, you could get away with well under $600.00 and they would sound just like they are supposed to. Unfinished around $500.00.

In the coming weeks, I am going to take them outside and put them up on something that will get them off the ground around 4 feet and take a free air close miked measurement. Then see what they do inside and look at the difference. They do sound real good with a DIY sub anchoring the bottom end. The soundstage is one of the widest I have ever heard and spatial placement is very good. I can hear in 3D! I just finished putting together the center that goes with them last night around 11 and turned it on long enough to know that woofers woof and tweeters tweet but other than that no real time listening yet.

Chuck

[jonathanb3478]

There seems to be more interest in this than I would have thought at first.

Not any more than I expected.

I keep the discs handy so next time I hear the tune, I will jot down the song and album title for you.

Thank you.

Thanks for the compliment!

Your welcome, and you earned it.

[Dennis Murphy]

Hi This is all very interesting, though not quite what I would have expected. The drivers in the RS tower are solid performers, but not that much of an improvement over the drivers in the PSB's. I don't know what the acoustic slopes are for the PSB, but I suspect they are not second order. Frankly, I would have expected the differences to be in driver blend, with the RS DIY presenting a "rounder," more focused sound. I would not have anticipated much difference in detail. Did you play any really heavily orchestrated cuts with lots of brass?

[chasw98]

Hi This is all very interesting, though not quite what I would have expected. The drivers in the RS tower are solid performers, but not that much of an improvement over the drivers in the PSB's. I don't know what the acoustic slopes are for the PSB, but I suspect they are not second order. Frankly, I would have expected the differences to be in driver blend, with the RS DIY presenting a "rounder," more focused sound. I would not have anticipated much difference in detail. Did you play any really heavily orchestrated cuts with lots of brass?

Hi Dennis.
From my point of view it seemed the drivers in the PSB were last years technology (no phase plugs in any driver, a large weighty dust cover over the woofer a la large Advent, and the tweeter was recessed maybe a 1/4 inch into the cabinet).
The DIY was fuller for sure and as far as blending, the drivers did seem to work more in harmony with each other as opposed to just 3 drivers covering different spectrums. The detail seemed to be very evident in the upper end due to the Seas H1212 driver, I presume. Still, both speakers were very close. We did not have any A/B switching mechanism so it was hard to pinpoint this or that. But we did listen for a good 3 hours.
There were no heavily orchestrated cuts with lots of brass, there were no orchestrated at all. It was jazz, female vocalists, acoustic cuts mostly. A little bit of blues. I am waiting on a Charles Munch "Living Stereo" SACD, but I must confess I don't have much classical. I would like to get some suggestions though if you would.

Chuck

[JohnL]

Chuck with a 2nd round KO. :B

Wasn't this the outcome of the last UFC Light Heavyweight title fight? :rofl:

[Habs4life]

Hi This is all very interesting, though not quite what I would have expected. The drivers in the RS tower are solid performers, but not that much of an improvement over the drivers in the PSB's. I don't know what the acoustic slopes are for the PSB, but I suspect they are not second order. Frankly, I would have expected the differences to be in driver blend, with the RS DIY presenting a "rounder," more focused sound. I would not have anticipated much difference in detail. Did you play any really heavily orchestrated cuts with lots of brass?

Dennis, the PSB's uses a 3rd order (acoustic) slope at 250 and 4th order LR at I believe 2.2K. The tweeter is custom built by Vifa and the mid is variant of the very popular Vifa P17WJ .Woofer is custom but not sure who manufactured it.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi This is all very interesting, though not quite what I would have expected. The drivers in the RS tower are solid performers, but not that much of an improvement over the drivers in the PSB's. I don't know what the acoustic slopes are for the PSB, but I suspect they are not second order. Frankly, I would have expected the differences to be in driver blend, with the RS DIY presenting a "rounder," more focused sound. I would not have anticipated much difference in detail. Did you play any really heavily orchestrated cuts with lots of brass?

Hi Dennis,

Given the fact that the PSB uses a poly mid, I'm surprised that the RS 3-ways weren't waaaay more detailed through the mid range. I remember listening to the Stratus in the late 80's. I ended up buying a pair of Legacy 2+ that I liked better which were a 3-way with Seas mids and tweeter with an Eaton 10" woofer. One of my son's still have the speakers and they sound very good. That was before Duddleston's speakers went to the "boom and sizzle" frequency response model that most of his recent creations have adopted.

I really wasn't surprised with the outcome. The RS drivers are ultra low distortion and have metal cones which increases the detail, not to mention, your superb crossover. How can it not be a winner?

Jim

[dawaro]

With Chuck recently finding out he inavertantly used the RS28 version of the xover with the Seas tweeter a rematch may be in order...

[Dennis Murphy]

With Chuck recently finding out he inavertantly used the RS28 version of the xover with the Seas tweeter a rematch may be in order...

Uh--now that's not true, is it? Naaaaaaaa. The two crossovers are radically different, and the speaker would sound pretty much like crap if there were that kind of mistake. So before I go off and model the response with the mismatched tweeter crossover, could you please confirm that you're serious? Chuck?

[Dennis H]

Yup it's true. Scroll toward the bottom of:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15323&page=33

Edit: so Dennis, which do you like better, the Seas version or the Dayton version assuming the plans are followed?

[chasw98]

Uh--now that's not true, is it? Naaaaaaaa. The two crossovers are radically different, and the speaker would sound pretty much like crap if there were that kind of mistake. So before I go off and model the response with the mismatched tweeter crossover, could you please confirm that you're serious? Chuck?

That's me in the corner with the DUNCE CAP on ;x(
I am afraid it is true and I am serious.

I have to accept it. I screwed up.
I have 2 choices. Buy a pair of RS28AS tweeters and bolt them in or buy the correct parts for the SEAS and rewire the crossovers.

[jonathanb3478]

So before I go off and model the response with the mismatched tweeter crossover...

Oh, please do!

It will be interesting to see the predicted variation. Especially in light of the fact that these two were found to be fairly identical through the mid section in a level matched comparison.

Definate rematch needed, once this is corrected.

Oh, Chuck...

<Bill Clinton impression>
I feel your pain.
</Bill Clinton impression>

[WillyD]

I would buy a pair of RS28As, but I am lazy.

[jonathanb3478]

I would buy a pair of RS28As, but I am lazy.

Ahh... but then you would have to live with them.

[Brian Bunge]

I thought that the design used the RS28A, not the RS28AS. Which is it?

[Jim Holtz]

That's me in the corner with the DUNCE CAP on ;x(
I am afraid it is true and I am serious.

I have to accept it. I screwed up.
I have 2 choices. Buy a pair of RS28AS tweeters and bolt them in or buy the correct parts for the SEAS and rewire the crossovers.

Hi Chuck,

Don't feel bad. This thread has gotten so unwieldy in size it's really tough to keep track of. You know what, if you liked the way it sounds with the wrong crossover think how good it'll sound with the correct one. :T

The easy way would be to spend $100 and buy RS28's. I prefer the H1212's but that's just me. Others think the RS28's are great. They sound too dead on the top for my tastes. I do think Dennis preferred the H1212 version, however.

Jim

[chasw98]

Hi Chuck,

Don't feel bad. This thread has gotten so unwieldy in size it's really tough to keep track of. You know what, if you liked the way it sounds with the wrong crossover think how good it'll sound with the correct one. :T

The easy way would be to spend $100 and buy RS28's. I prefer the H1212's but that's just me. Others think the RS28's are great. They sound too dead on the top for my tastes. I do think Dennis preferred the H1212 version, however.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I accept my fate. I have come this far and won't stop now. I am currently getting ready to place the order for the Seas H1212 parts. I have been soldering and building for many, many years so it is no big deal to rewire. The cost difference between ordering a pair of RS28AS and the Seas XO parts is 10 cents. Just to add insult to injury I will request UPS blue so I have them for the weekend! That will be $20 extra.

[jonathanb3478]

I thought that the design used the RS28A, not the RS28AS. Which is it?

Off of page 1:

Added by moderator....

Dennis's crossovers call for the following drivers:

DAYTON RS28A-4 Unshielded http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=275-130

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jim. I accept my fate. I have come this far and won't stop now. I am currently getting ready to place the order for the Seas H1212 parts. I have been soldering and building for many, many years so it is no big deal to rewire. The cost difference between ordering a pair of RS28AS and the Seas XO parts is 10 cents. Just to add insult to injury I will request UPS blue so I have them for the weekend! That will be $20 extra.

Darn! I'm leaving on a two week vacation Friday but I'm taking a laptop with me so I can stay up on how this whole thing plays out.

Jim

[chasw98]

Off of page 1:

And from the zip file on Page 1 of the WWMT thread.

[Dennis Murphy]

That's me in the corner with the DUNCE CAP on ;x(
I am afraid it is true and I am serious.

I have to accept it. I screwed up.
I have 2 choices. Buy a pair of RS28AS tweeters and bolt them in or buy the correct parts for the SEAS and rewire the crossovers.

Uh---well, we all fall short of perfection now and then. But please detail the full extent of the disaster. Which midrange crossover did you use? They are very similar, but the last component is different. Did you use the mid and tweet crossover for the RS tweet instead of the Seas, or just the tweeter crossover?