SS RLP15 meet its match?

[nick77]

The TC Sounds TC-2000 appears to be the match up to RLP. I am no expect on stats, can someone please tell me if this driver would be superior to the RLP or is the SS still the best buy in the $300 range? I still have a spare channel on EP2500 that I still need to fill and already have one RLP15. Would it be ok to mix drivers as long as they are in seperate cabinets?

http://www.tcsounds.com/tc2000.htm

[ThomasW]

It's a bit difficult to speculate about a driver no one has ever used...

$40 more for 3.6mm additional Xmax. If you need that added Xmax I suppose it's worth it.

My preference would be for matched drivers.

[ssabripo]

actually, the AV15 is the best driver at this price range....at approx $200, it models almost identically to the RP-L, and it is $70 cheaper.

[ThomasW]

it models almost identically to the RP-L, and it is $70 cheaper.

And it's unavailable..... :roll:

[SteveCallas]

nick, so far I'm not very impressed with this driver in a ported configuration (even more so when you consider its price) - I agree with Thomas to stick with matching subs.

[steve nn]

I still have a spare channel on EP2500 that I still need to fill and already have one RLP15. Would it be ok to mix drivers as long as they are in seperate cabinets?

I would stay away from mixing Nick, it's a sure fire way of downgrading your gain. It's like mixing differently tuned subs. You would realize a gain in SPL alright, but not what you would realize in going with a second like RL-p.

And it's unavailable.....

Well since Sherv has one, as far as he's concerned it's available.. or it would appear anyway.

[SteveCallas]

Nick, I apologize, I misinterpretted and thought you were asking about the 3000. So many threads about the 3000 popped up, I thought you were asking about it too, my mistake.

What I have found is that the SVC 2000 15" actually does outperform the RLp15 in just about every category by a bit in a slightly larger enclosure (the RLp15 doesn't want to go larger). That said, I would still stick with duals of the same driver and not mix and match. If someone is starting a new project and doesn't mind the added cost, then I would look into the 2000 - in your case, I wouldn't worry about it.

[nick77]

Thanks, I did get an email from tc sounds and they said with 750 watts that a ported design would perform best and that 1500 watts would be perferred in sealed.
My question is with the RLP15 is 750 watts enough power for a sealed design? My new sonotube design has the kind of output I was looking for from with this driver. My sealed cabinet (4.5 cubic ft) with the RLP15 and 750 watts just didnt rock my house. I did enjoy the tight sound and still thinking about replacing the driver I stole out of it. Hehe :B

[ssabripo]

And it's unavailable..... :roll:

there are a couple left....according to John :lol: :

[palmtree]

there are a couple left....according to John :lol: :

I don't know about that. I emailed John about a month ago and he said he wouldn't have any more drivers until summer (which is just around the corner so we'll see).
I originally wanted to build an AV15 sub but couldn't seem to get ahold of one. So I switched to dual assassins with a loss in performance. Then I decided to part with a little more cash and go with the SS RL-p15 like so many others have successfully done. Now I can't help but wonder about the new TC2000. Good grief. The longer I procrastinate the tougher it gets to decide. To make a long story even longer--now I have waited so long that it is almost summer and I am thinking about waiting to see if the AV15 will come available soon enough for me. Who would have ever thought it would be this hard--and I haven't even started building it yet.
So ssabripo--if you know how I can get an AV15, please let me know :T .
Brett

[---k---]

There will always be something better around the corner. Is living without really worth the very small gains a new driver may give you.

[steve nn]

Hey Brett..
Could you tell that story over again?..I found it most entertaining.:lol:

[palmtree]

There will always be something better around the corner. Is living without really worth the very small gains a new driver may give you.

Well--I'm not that mental, or patient, or what ever you want to call it. The main reason I haven't started building the sub is because I am not yet finished with the HT room and I want to make sure I have the funds needed to finish the room first. So when the time comes--I will most likely just buy what is considered the best "bang for the buck" in my price range at the time. It is driving me crazy. I can't hardly stand waiting to get this done. However, this is the time of year that my wife plans a pretty long list of "honey-do's" out on the property (we live on 8.5 acres). When you have to maintain 8.5 acres of trees and grass on weekends only I like to spend the rest of my time playing with my kids. If my kids were just a little older they would be all over this theater thing. As it stands now they are scared of most movies (not just scary movies either).

Hey Brett..
Could you tell that story over again?..I found it most entertaining.

Ha! I wish my wife thought that story was entertaining. However, the good part about driving her nuts with my subwoofer soap opera is that she may eventually say "just do what ever you want and spend as much money as it takes--but quit telling me about it". Maybe that's what I am really waiting for :B .

By the way. Where's the spell check on this thing?

[ThomasW]

By the way. Where's the spell check on this thing?

If you're using IE this is an excellent plug-in

http://www.iespell.com/

[palmtree]

If you're using IE this is an excellent plug-in
http://www.iespell.com/

Thanks. I'll check it out.

[ssabripo]

If you're using IE this is an excellent plug-in
http://www.iespell.com/

IE???? :E

who uses that trash these days????! Go Firefox man....an is extension available to do just about everything south of building you a Subwoofer :lol:

[Brian Walter]

[QUOTE=ssabripo]IE???? :E

who uses that trash these days????! Go Firefox man....an is extension available to do just about everything south of building you a Subwoofer :lol:[/QUOTE

Good or bad, I suspect that a large percentage of the people use IE.

Brian Walter

[DarrenE]

My question is with the RLP15 is 750 watts enough power for a sealed design? My new sonotube design has the kind of output I was looking for from with this driver. My sealed cabinet (4.5 cubic ft) with the RLP15 and 750 watts just didnt rock my house. I did enjoy the tight sound and still thinking about replacing the driver I stole out of it. Hehe :B

My sub is 4.6 cubic feet with the same driver and when I punch 750 watts into unibox I get that there will be over excursion at 20 hz. I dont' know if my model is wrong. I asked twice in my ridicuthread and I never got an answer. I would think you are already pushing the excursion at 750 watts but maybe somebody else will answer. I sure hope somebody gives an answer because I could bridge my K1 and put 1100 watts into the sub but I am afraid to push the driver into over-excursion.

[SteveCallas]

Darren, that means it exceeds excursion at 20hz at full 750 watts power, meaning the amp would be at its limits. Hopefully, you shouldn't reach that point too often - if you see your clipping lights light up regularly on demanding scenes, some would say you need more power, but I would say you need more woofage. Having to run tons of power through a driver is the wrong way to approach things in my opinion.

By the way though, I don't see the dual 2ohm RLp15 exceeding excursion in 4.6 cubes with 750 watts power at 20hz, it's more like 10hz. If you want to see an interesting difference in output though, overlay a ported, 9.2 cubic foot box, with a ~15.5hz tuning, and the same amount of power onto your sealed design :W

[chasw98]

By the way though, I don't see the dual 2ohm RLp15 exceeding excursion in 4.6 cubes with 750 watts power at 20hz, it's more like 10hz. If you want to see an interesting difference in output though, overlay a ported, 9.2 cubic foot box, with a ~15.5hz tuning, and the same amount of power onto your sealed design :W

There you go Brother Callas, preaching your multi driver, large enclosure sermon again. What are we to do? I guess just keep building! Must use more drivers, must use more drivers.....

[SteveCallas]

As long as I don't start passing a basket around, it's all good :T

[nick77]

As long as I don't start passing a basket around, it's all good :T

Pass the bucket, I know I for one am very grateful for your advise. My house rumbles real good. Hehe

[steve nn]

Originally Posted by SteveCallas.. By the way though, I don't see the dual 2ohm RLp15 exceeding excursion in 4.6 cubes with 750 watts power at 20hz, it's more like 10hz. If you want to see an interesting difference in output though, overlay a ported, 9.2 cubic foot box, with a ~15.5hz tuning, and the same amount of power onto your sealed design

The amp will give out first no doubt about it. Well with the two 4 cu ft sealed units I built anyway.

[Scott Simonian]

If you want to see an interesting difference in output though, overlay a ported, 9.2 cubic foot box, with a ~15.5hz tuning, and the same amount of power onto your sealed design .

Haha! Tried that and got an additional ~5dB at 20hz and ~12dB around the 15hz area. Yikes! Same power, good excursion utilization.

[nick77]

Haha! Tried that and got an additional ~5dB at 20hz and ~12dB around the 15hz area. Yikes! Same power, good excursion utilization.

Yikes! Is right I am experiencing this in person going from 4.5cubic ft sealed to 9 cubic ft vented sonotube. While watching the Legend of Zorro and several key explosions the sealed unit was unimpressive and the vented sonotube has put the pressure back in my life. Hehe :T

[DarrenE]

By the way though, I don't see the dual 2ohm RLp15 exceeding excursion in 4.6 cubes with 750 watts power at 20hz, it's more like 10hz.

So I guess I'll bridge the K1, wire the two subs in series for an 8 ohm load, and hold on. If I smoke the drivers I'll be sure to send you the bill. 8O

[/end thread hijack] ops:

[Dennis H]

So I guess I'll bridge the K1, wire the two subs in series for an 8 ohm load, and hold on. If I smoke the drivers I'll be sure to send you the bill.

That's just the same as feeding each driver with a channel of the amp and I don't really see the advantage other than saving a piece of wire. Drivers in series, amps in series, all the same thing.

[DarrenE]

That's just the same as feeding each driver with a channel of the amp and I don't really see the advantage other than saving a piece of wire. Drivers in series, amps in series, all the same thing.

Each of my subs presents a 4 ohm load to the amp. If each sub is connected to a single channel this will result in 550 watts to each sub.

If I wire the two subs in series it will present an 8 ohm load to the amp. The K1 bridged and presented an 8 ohm load will output 1100 watts.

If I were connecting each voice coil of a single driver to each channel you would be correct. What I am doing is connecting four 2-ohm voice coils in series for a total load of 8 ohms.

[Dennis H]

Each of my subs presents a 4 ohm load to the amp. If each sub is connected to a single channel this will result in 550 watts to each sub.

If I wire the two subs in series it will present an 8 ohm load to the amp. The K1 bridged and presented an 8 ohm load will output 1100 watts.

Right. Either way, each sub gets 550 watts. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

There are some theoretical (maybe not real world) problems with running drivers in series if they don't have identical T/S parameters and box tuning. You can get a situation where the back EMF from the drivers causes them to unload (too much excursion) at certain frequencies near driver resonance. See JohnK's pages for the long explanation. It's probably no big deal in the real world but why take a chance?

[SteveCallas]

Here's what I said:

Having to run tons of power through a driver is the wrong way to approach things in my opinion.

and here's how you interpretted it:

So I guess I'll bridge the K1, wire the two subs in series for an 8 ohm load, and hold on. If I smoke the drivers I'll be sure to send you the bill

Stick with the 750 watts from the Behringer. If you find yourself needing to consistently run more than 750 watts to a single driver, what I'm saying is you need more woofage, not a more powerful amp. That's also why I mentioned the ported design, you just get so much more clean output down low for the same power.

[DarrenE]

Right. Either way, each sub gets 550 watts. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

If you wire two speakers in series the first driver doesn't use half the power and then pass the other half on to the next speaker. All the power goes through both speakers or neither.

[DarrenE]

There are some theoretical (maybe not real world) problems with running drivers in series if they don't have identical T/S parameters and box tuning. You can get a situation where the back EMF from the drivers causes them to unload (too much excursion) at certain frequencies near driver resonance.

I have two identical drivers in two identical sealed enclosures. I think that is probably the best case scenario for having matching performance.

[Dennis H]

If you wire two speakers in series the first driver doesn't use half the power and then pass the other half on to the next speaker. All the power goes through both speakers or neither.

That is incorrect. All the current passes through both drivers. Each driver sees a voltage equal to half the source voltage. Power is current times voltage so each driver receives half the power.

I have two identical drivers in two identical sealed enclosures

The point is that two drivers are seldom identical due to manufacturing tolerances. John doesn't seem to have the paper up on his new site but, as I recall, a 1% difference in Fs can set up an oscillation in the sims he did.

[DarrenE]

That is incorrect. All the current passes through both drivers. Each driver sees a voltage equal to half the source voltage. Power is current times voltage so each driver receives half the power.

If that is true why do pro audio guys wire speakers in combinations of series and parallel to achieve a desired load/output? Chaining speakers would seem to be counterproductive.

Can anybody else confirm this. Nothing personal Dennis but I take everything I read on forums with a shovel full of salt. ops: It's usually safer that way.

[Dennis H]

Darren, I suggest you review Ohm's Law. Google is your friend.

[soho54]

Dennis is correct. Lets say you had a single channel amp with specs- 200 watts at 8 Ohm, and 750 W at 2 Ohm. You have two 4 Ohm cabinets. If you wire the cabs in series you get an 8 Ohm load, with 100 w going to both cabs. If you wire them parallel the amp sees a 2 Ohm load, with 375 W going to each speaker. Pro Audio guys play with these configuration to get the most power to as many speakers as possible. This is an over-simplified response but I believe it is valid.

[DarrenE]

Darren, I suggest you review Ohm's Law. Google is your friend.

Nice RTFM answer. I didn't realize I was on a Linux forum. Good way to drive people off the forum. :roll:

[Dennis H]

Nice RTFM answer. I didn't realize I was on a Linux forum. Good way to drive people off the forum. :roll:

Having a bad day are we? You made it quite clear you weren't interested in anything I had to say so I told you where you could look it up yourself -- the Y in DIY.

[DarrenE]

Having a bad day are we? You made it quite clear you weren't interested in anything I had to say so I told you where you could look it up yourself -- the Y in DIY.

I was looking for confirmation. If I find as I read many of your posts that you are seldom incorrect I will then put more weight on your posts. I don't have enough history here to know if you are knowledgeable or not. Most of what I have read on forums has been wrong and it has cost me a lot of money. I have also learned a lot on the forums and am glad that they are available. I just haven't learned much from people who post RTFM. I find it arrogant and offensive. I am sure there are a few areas where I have vastly superior knowledge to you. I just wouldnt' tell you to RTFM or GIYF if you asked me a question.

[soho54]

I think the point is that you will cause more distortion from the amp and speakers buy running them in series and the amp bridged, and not gain any power(WATTAGE). One channel per speaker is the better choice here. The fact that the terms current and power were miss-used caused the problems.

[SteveCallas]

Most of what I have read on forums has been wrong and it has cost me a lot of money

I don't mean to open up old wounds, but I'd be interested in hearing some stories

[Dennis H]

If I find as I read many of your posts that you are seldom incorrect I will then put more weight on your posts.

Don't bother. I doubt I'll be trying to help you in the future.

[DarrenE]

Don't bother. I doubt I'll be trying to help you in the future.

I was just trying to find the truth until post 35 of this thread where you got offended that I didn't blindly trust you. As far as I am concerned it us just good practice to look for confirmation when reading posts from Random J. Internetguy on some forum. I had read the opposite of what you were saying in other posts/forums and I am not in the habit of just believing whatever the last person told me.

I apologize if it annoys me when I get RTFM answers. Have fun and enjoy flaming the newbies.

[noah katz]

"That is incorrect. All the current passes through both drivers. Each driver sees a voltage equal to half the source voltage. Power is current times voltage so each driver receives half the power."

Not quite there yet.

The impedance is doubled over one speaker, so the current is half.

Thus each driver gets 1/2 V, 1/2 A, and 1/4 P.

Total power input is 1/2, but output remains the same because Sd is 2X.

This is why multiple drivers are more dynamic; same output on 1/4 P per driver means less compression and distortion.

[Dennis H]

Noah, you're making it too complicated. Nobody was comparing 2 speakers vs. 1 speaker with the same amp config. The question was, given two speakers in series, how much power goes to each speaker. Answer, 1/2 the total power goes to each speaker.

The impedance bit was already allowed for in the amp specs -- bridged power into 8 ohms (2 speakers in series) vs. twice the single-channel power into 4 ohms (single speaker). 1100 watts bridged into 8 ohms (split equally between 2 speakers in series) vs. 2x 550 watts/channel into two 4-ohm speakers. Either way, the total power is 1100 watts and each speaker get the same 550 watts.