Thinking about building Exodus 2641s

[ThomasW]

Forums of Adire dealers or where Adire is a primary sponsor.

Yep, those should be completely unbiased ... :roll:

[cjd]

Al,

I'm not sure those forums are going to do much other than pump the Adire's - not a bad thing, but in 3 of 4 cases they're also brand dedicated forums - this one is not. And the fourth, not many speaker builders there that aren't here. I've HEARD the Adire drivers used in the Exodus, just not the implementation, and I'm not convinced. I also did say that I think Fry would be quite happy with the Exodus kits, regardless.

When it comes to the specific measurements and characteristics of the drivers, the Extremis does fall a bit short - yet it's still a top rate driver. If the price weren't so crazy I would be more likely to use it - I just can't justify the cost though. Despite that it's in the running for a project where it would be kept in its sweet range.

At any rate, you're not wrong to suggest Fry might want to look around. Who knows, maybe he has.

Jim: I realized yesterday while listening to an amp I'm working on that one key difference between us may make the preference in tweeter more clear: my hearing goes to 18.5kHz or so, and I seem to recall you know yours starts to fall off earlier. Which means, to me, that you're going to find the top octave short on a tweeter that's flat - one that emphasizes it will be more likely to make me cringe. Could be a very simple answer here.

And, if I can get helping hands to MOVE the towers, you can bet I'll bring them. I may have to rent a U-Haul van for the day or something, unless I also find a ride. They weigh in beyond what I would even pretend to try to do by myself. I'm thinking a fridge dolly might be called for to deal with our front steps.

C

[Al Garay]

The opinions expressed in this thread are heavily biased towards the Dayton RS drivers (and PE products and designs). He may as well hear the opposing side from those who had similar questions and chosed the Exodus kits.

[cjd]

The opinions of the people that CHOSE those drivers, however, gave consideration to the Adire products.

Would you be raising the issue if it had been Peerless or Seas?

C

[Al Garay]

Nope. I like Seas Excel, Scanspeak, Accuton and Eton. And I'm hoping Jon works on a full Accuton 3-way.

[Dennis H]

Hey, c'mon Al. The people here choose the best drivers they can find, regardless of brand or price, although price is always a consideration. See my earlier post comparing the RS225 to the Extremis. The Extremis, operating in its sweet zone, has 10x the distortion of the RS225. If anybody's a fanboy around here, it's the one who picks the higher-distortion driver because of commercial ties or brand loyalty.

[Jim Holtz]

Al,

Jim: I realized yesterday while listening to an amp I'm working on that one key difference between us may make the preference in tweeter more clear: my hearing goes to 18.5kHz or so, and I seem to recall you know yours starts to fall off earlier. Which means, to me, that you're going to find the top octave short on a tweeter that's flat - one that emphasizes it will be more likely to make me cringe. Could be a very simple answer here.

And, if I can get helping hands to MOVE the towers, you can bet I'll bring them. I may have to rent a U-Haul van for the day or something, unless I also find a ride. They weigh in beyond what I would even pretend to try to do by myself. I'm thinking a fridge dolly might be called for to deal with our front steps.

C

Hi Chris,

I'd thought about the hearing thing too since I'm several years your senior. The last time I had my hearing checked I was still able to hear tp 17K which is pretty respectable for someone my age.

The thing that comes to mind though, is the fact that the 27TDFC has a rising response from 17K and up where the RS28 takes a 5 db dip and the H1212 slowly rolls off. I'm not aware of anyone thinking the TDFC is bright or harsh.

It's been said, time and again, it's all in the crossover. Properly implemented, I think the H1212 is a killer tweeter and is my 1st choice in a budget 1" dome. Everyone likes different things which is what keeps life and audio interesting. Of course, I'm a real fanboy of ribbons too. You start with measurements and end with your ears. The only true reference is the live performance. Ribbons and the H1212 take me closer than the others to the real deal, IMHO. YMMV... :W

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

The opinions expressed in this thread are heavily biased towards the Dayton RS drivers (and PE products and designs). He may as well hear the opposing side from those who had similar questions and chosed the Exodus kits.

Al,

So you're saying you have issues with the Dayton drivers, the RS line in particular, or PE in general? If so, would you care to explain?

I think that you would know Thomas and Jon well enough to know that any "bias" they have for or against any driver or finished design is based first and foremost on objective testing. Thomas for one has been a huge proponent of Adire's subwoofer drivers over the years and even took me to task once years ago for questioning the build quality of the Shiva. And I've seen Thomas and Jon both question some of the designs posted on the PE Project Showcase using both PE/Dayton RS products as well as other products that PE sells from other manufacturers. So I think your accusations of bias are unfounded.

[Fryguy]

Sorry for starting the mini-flame war.

I _HAVE_ been looking around at kits. For a while. I came to the exodus conclusion after having considered a lot of madisound kits. I had come to the conclusion that the exodus kits were approximately on the same level as seas thor, although a bit more lively, a bit cheaper, and much easier to build matching center and surrounds. When I came to my decision I was aware of the dayton designs available, although I didn't have much knowledge of them (as is apparent by my first couple of posts).

I kind of had a stigma against Dayton drivers mostly because they lacked the "boutiqueness" that the adire drivers had, and I thought they were similar to the base model dayton drivers, which, while very good, seemed to certainly lack in quality compared to designs using higher end drivers.

I thought that even the Dayton RS lacked at least somewhat compared to the adire drivers. I was proven wrong pretty objectively by the posters on this forum. I was vaguely considering Dayton RS before I posted here, although my mind was mostly made up.

One thing that strikes me is just how much more goes into the crossover of the Daytons than the Exodus kit. There's ~2x as many components in the daytons. This seems like a double-edged sword IMO:

+: A lot of design has gone into this setup
-: The drivers _need_ a lot of "help"

So to me, with superior quality drivers, backed by a lot of people speaking for them, plus the fact that we are in the range where the quality is going to be unquestioned anyway, seems like an easy choice for me.

So here I am, stuck trying to make a decision between 2 ferraris (yes I'm still undecided) :0

[Brian Bunge]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Dayton drivers have aluminum cones which have nasty breakup modes that have to be dealt with outside of their pistonic range. The 4" Exodus driver is a paper cone, which usually have very smooth response and are therefore usually easier to work with. Many feel that paper cones in general lack the resolution of metal cones. So in a way, the RS drivers do need more "help", but I feel that it's well worth it. I love the articulation you get from the rigid aluminum cones.

Like I said, I haven't heard the 2641's so I can't comment on their sound unfortunately. But I do know that I'm very happy with my large RS 3-ways (Might as well start calling them the Bungies for clarity!). I wish I had a reason to build the TMWW's using the dual 8's but there just really isn't any reason for me to do that unless they're for a gift for someone. I will tell you that I have spoken to Kevin about several of his designs and I feel that he is a competent designer.

I can tell you that I'm still very happy with my speakers and would build them again in a heartbeat.

[HeatMiser]

Yikes, this thread took an awkward turn.

Personal bias (and the negative connotations that go along with that term) is a very different thing from what I'll call "incidental bias" based on a preponderance of designs involving a particular set of drivers. The fact is most of the current projects on this board involve the Dayton RS drivers, and most of the opinions expressed are from people who are very happy with their RS-based systems. They're clearly great drivers in really exceptional designs, nobody could dispute that. But as a result there can at times seem to be a relative shortage of information about *other* designs* using *other* drivers. I think it does Mr. Garay a disservice to infer from his suggestion that he is accusing others of personal bias, or is somehow now biased himself. I apologize if I have misinterpreted something, but I read his comment as nothing more than a suggestion to spend some time on boards where there are people who have built the darn things, in order to get some more direct feedback. Seems sensible enough to me.

[Brian Bunge]

While I agree with you, it does appear that Al takes issue with the Dayton drivers as he states that he would not have brought up the issue had we been talking about Seas, Scanspeak, etc. That's why I've asked for clarification.

I've never had any issues with Al in the past so I hope he realizes that I simply want to understand where he's coming from. In the end, it's still possible that we may just have to agree to disagree, but that is ok too. That's one of the nice things about being respectful of others. Although it's not as much fun to read as all the 15 year olds in the car audio forums flaming each other.

[Hdale85]

Well ive seen some "15 year old" type talk in some of the DIY/Home Theater forums as well

[Brian Bunge]

Well, that's completely true. It's just that I don't frequent many of those forums much anymore. I don't even visit Home Theater Forum more than once a month. I haven't visited a car audio forum in a number of years so it's possible things have gotten much better. My time for reading the forums is limited these days so I try to make it as productive as possible and avoid most of the flames.

[Fryguy]

Well, I think I've made my decision:

Go big or go home. I have a feeling that I'm going to regret going with the TMWWs if I go with them.

Now, a few things now that I've made up my mind:

1. Is there any point to going active with 6-channels of amplification, and using a feature-filled active like the behringer DCX2496, which I've been told can do everything that the passive does?

2. Anybody wanna build some of these for me

3. The DCR of the inductors, is it OK if it's much lower? Like, could I just use all 14ga inductors? Would it be better? I'll be posting my BOM later to double-check everything, but I'm curious about the DCR of the inductors and if going all 14ga does anything, bad or good.

4. Thoughts on this amp to power them: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=248-749

[ThomasW]

There are no DCX's available until at least the end of May.

If you want to go active I suggest using the passive crossover design for the MTM section and active for the woofer section.

Use the air 14 gauge for everything except the zobel.

The new little Behringer amp has been getting mixed reviews. Some like it, others don't think it sounds that good.

[Brian Bunge]

I'd be happy to build them for you. How much are they worth to ya!

I've thought about giving that amp a shot to see if it would work well for powering these monsters. I might have to try it in a month or so when funds allow.

[Dennis H]

Nevermind.....

[Fryguy]

Thomas, mind pointing out which ones are for the zobel (I'm sorry, my understanding of crossovers is minimal at best, and this design is FAR outside of the scope of my knowledge).

I'm not so much a believer in "amp sound." I am to an extent, but not as much as other people seem to think. I was more or less curious if it'd push the 3ohm load well. I'm currently using a Behringer ep1500 for my subwoofer.

And Brian, they are worth what it costs to get them built I'm pretty serious. I have a cabinet builder (who built my subwoofer), but I'd like to shop around and see if I can save a bit I'm sure shipping from Florida would be killer tho. My builder is at least somewhat close to me (Pennsylvania, I'm in MA).

Would be looking for oak veneer, stained black, with satin lacquer finish, like my sub: http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy

Also, is this the final design? https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=537

[cjd]

Fry, if you want to pick 'em up from Chicago, my towers are available.

C

[JonMarsh]

The opinions expressed in this thread are heavily biased towards the Dayton RS drivers (and PE products and designs). He may as well hear the opposing side from those who had similar questions and chosed the Exodus kits.

Hello Al,

This is not really an apt comparison- it's implying that we're part of a marketing organzation/effort promoting PE products, and able to discuss and post in this forum due to their sponsorship. There are some important points to consider-

1) We're not sponsored by PE. Never have received any money from them or any free parts. I pay for PE parts, or Peerless, or Adire, or Accuton, or Seas, or ScanSpeak, or Focal, or Fountek, or O-Audio the same as anyone else here. I just have less impulse control than most grown men when it comes to buying drivers to test.

2) Some of us at HT Guide have bought the Adire drivers and tested them, as well as the PE - I bought 8 of the Extremis 6.8 in the original group buy due to my enthusiasm from the early published information- smoothed curves and all.

3) After measuring the Extremis 6.8, I sold them at a very nice price to another member on this board, who's used them for constructing systems. They didn't meet my expectations or the early build up, or published specs in some important regards, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't make some other fella or gal quite happy. Different strokes for different folks.

4) I measure and evaluate a lot of drivers. More than you guys know about, because I also get stuff to evaluate under NDA, in which I cannot discuss what I'm looking at on the board.

5) There are a lot of forums which are basically advertising venues for manufacturers, and they don't really hide it, but sometimes users overlook it. No problem, but HT Guide isn't one of them, and we actively resist anyone posting here regarding their affiliated with an active DIY component sales organization.

Unlike JohnK, Dave Ellis, Rick Craig, Danny Richie and many others, we are an "open" source community at HT Guide, freely publishing and sharing designs. Anyone that wants to promote commercial designs in any sense, that's a cool way to try to make a living, but it doesn't belong at the Guide, at least not in "Mission Possible DIY". This place is about DIY by beginning to advanced Hobbyists. Some of those hobbyists may have industry experience, but that's left behind (except in knowledge base) when you come to the 'Guide. It's not about DIY sales.

Regards,

~Jon

[Hdale85]

Would be looking for oak veneer, stained black, with satin lacquer finish, like my sub: http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy

Hmm looks like linux, running Gnome. I never really liked gnome much, I tend to use BB or some of the other small options.

[Fryguy]

It's windows xp

[cotdt]

I think a lot of people here have a sweet spot for the Dayton RS. They are just amazing bang for buck when compared to competitors. The Dayton RS woofers are almost as detailed and resolving as the Seas Excel woofers (most people won't even notice the difference), but have much better low-end. So it's better and much cheaper, what's there not to like?

I got my hearing tested recently and can hear to 22kHz. The RS28A sounds much smoother and less fatiguing to my ears than the Seas H1212, which has more of a metallic sound up high, and higher treble distortion.

[Hdale85]

It's windows xp

So your a wannabe then huh? Useing all that skinning and what not. Just because it looks like linux dont make it run like linux

[Fryguy]

Dougie, I've run Linux for years, just not something I have a need for anymore. I still use it on some systems online that I have accounts with, and I occasionally screw around with code in the Linux kernel. Raw usability of windows has taken control for me however.

Now I'm having second thoughts about these towers. I'm also starting to have a look at a lot of the other designs here, including NatPs and Modula. It'd be real nice to just build some Modulas and save $$$$$$$$ on cabinets, but I don't think they offer the type of response I'm looking for.

How is the midbass response of the TMWWs?

I guess my main concern now is going with smaller drivers with less total displacement if I'll have enough "oomph" to get down to 60hz to mate with my subwoofer.

I guess I'm stepping down now to save a bit of money Looking at modula/natps versus the TMWWs now

[Hdale85]

I believe the TMWW's get down in the 50's or maybe even 40's or 30's cant remember but they play pretty low. They are a lot smaller too which is why I've been concidering them. I just was thinking about how big the MTMWW's are and i was like "Wow those are huge" but i will still probably build them I like big speakers.

As for linux its the same thing here. I may buy a make soon but mostly because i can install windows on it even though I love osx and know its far better the software support just isnt good enough yet.

[Fryguy]

What about modula MTMs? It'd be really nice for me to be able to use PE cabinets, but I'm not sure how much ability I'd be losing by going with that design over the TMWW.

[Hdale85]

Well if you were to build the NatP's or Modula MTM's youd probably want to build the tower version which youd have to build the enclosures for anyways You could probably find a cabinet maker to make them for you though as they are smaller and use a lot less wood probably wouldnt be so expensive.

[Fryguy]

I'd just build the PE cabinet version and put them on speaker stands. Would be cheaper than having cabinets built.

Performance wise, how much better is the TMWW over the modula for music?

[Jim Holtz]

Dougie, I've run Linux for years, just not something I have a need for anymore. I still use it on some systems online that I have accounts with, and I occasionally screw around with code in the Linux kernel. Raw usability of windows has taken control for me however.

Now I'm having second thoughts about these towers. I'm also starting to have a look at a lot of the other designs here, including NatPs and Modula. It'd be real nice to just build some Modulas and save $$$$$$$$ on cabinets, but I don't think they offer the type of response I'm looking for.

How is the midbass response of the TMWWs?

I guess my main concern now is going with smaller drivers with less total displacement if I'll have enough "oomph" to get down to 60hz to mate with my subwoofer.

I guess I'm stepping down now to save a bit of money Looking at modula/natps versus the TMWWs now

Fryguy,

I'm not sure why you think the WWMT's are a step down but I can assure you they aren't. I've built the Modula M/T's, Natalie P's. Dennis Murphys RS 3-way plus a 1/2 dozen custom designs from Rick Craig, not to mention other designs by Dennis. My reference speakers are Selah Audio line arrays which are pictured in my avatar.

60 Hz. is a walk in the park for any of the speakers I mentioned. As a matter of fact 60 Hz is a real waste of the great bass the RS drivers are capable of. The dual RS 225's used in the WWMT are roughly equal to a 12" driver in SD plus they have a little more xmax than the RS270's. They also have the same F3 of 50 Hz. Add room gain and you have strong bass into the 30's in a sealed cabinet.

Are the WWMT's better than the Modula M/T's or Natalie P's? They are a 3-way and you'll enjoy the benefits of a cleaner mid range etc. but all are outstanding speakers. I consider the WWMT's a giant killer and I expect to prove it this fall at the DIY events. They really are darn good. Not as good as my arrays but at fraction of the cost, the WWMT's are amazing.

Build what you want but you will not regret building the WWMT's if you choose to do so.

Enjoy!

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

You need to define "better..for music?" From a dynamic capability standpoint, the dual 225's will move about 3x the amount of air as the dual 180's.

If you're now looking to save time and money, I'd say you'd be better off building either the Modula MT's or MTM's and going from there. If you like the sound, you could always move them to surround duty and build one of the pairs of 3-way towers if you feel you need better bass extension and/or dynamic capabilities.

Define exactly what type of "response" you're looking for, decide which design(s) fit into your budget, and go from there. Otherwise, you'll just end up in analysis paralysis and probably won't build any of the designs.

BTW, I don't remember if you said or not, but what speakers are you currently using in your system?

[Brian Bunge]

Jim,

That's some really fine work you've done there! And that's a big compliment coming from me seeing as I'm not much of a fan of oak anymore. Just a beautiful job!

[Fryguy]

I'm currently in a 2.1 setup, using Audax 2-ways from the madisound home theater kit (the rears, MT). And my subwoofer is a sealed Avalanche.

I want the "big sound" sound, with lots of clarity and crispness, and I like my sound on the aggressive side (a little punch in the midbass, little bright on the tweeters etc). For those familiar with headphones, I've got a set of grado sr-225s and like them.

The modulas save me a ton of money in cabinets, however I think it's too big of a compromise for what I'm looking for. The well-designed TMWWs are going to have better midrange, as was mentioned.

And better matching with the center (I kind of want a 3-way center, since the midrange is going to help with dialog etc).

And probably better powerhandling. My Avalanche is currently doing ~115db underpowered at 25hz (it's a 1400 watt amp, but my house wiring is terrible to the point where it can't supply that much power). This is in a TINY room however. I'd like something that has the ability to at least come close to keeping up with the ability of the subwoofer for the once in a blue moon I like to do a little hearing damage My normal listening levels are far lower than this however (in the 60-80 range depending on time of day etc)

[Brian Bunge]

If the room is really small then I think you'd be better off with the TMWW. I originally had my big 3-ways in a bedroom that was decent size for a bedroom, but still too small for them. The TMWW in sealed cabinets should be a great way to go.

[Fryguy]

Yah the room is going to be a typical to large-ish appartment living room (like 16x12ish)

I should just email my builder and see how badly he wants to rape me on the cost of the towers.

How well will the Modula MTM go with the WMTW center?

[Hdale85]

They both use RS drivers should be just fine.

[dawaro]

Being that I have built most of the speakers that you are looking at here, Audax HT, Modula MT & MTM, and the 2641's, I thought I would share my two cents here.

First off any of the designs that have been discussed would be a MAJOR improvement to the Audax 2-way. While the Audax is a nice entry level design it is just that entry level. They were a way to get people in the loop using the most inexpensive line of speakers Audax had. Of the entire set the surrounds are the weakest link.

I went from the Audax set to a set of Modula MTM for the front and a set of Modula MT's for the rear and it was an amazing difference. This difference was the entire reason for starting the WMTW thread that evolved into the WMTW/TMWW thread. I can assure you there is no comparision between either Modula design and the Audax.

As far as the 2641 and the Modula's I am not sure that it is fair to compare them since they are so different. I think both speakers are very nice designs. They both do a lot of things right and it really comes down to preference and money. While the 2641 has better mids it is at double the cost of the Modulas. The low end is a little better in the 2641 but again at expense of a much larger cabinet. I think you could get close to the same response out of the RS180's in a larger cabinet.

I have not built the TMWW but having used the RS drivers in other designs I can promise they will be leaps and bounds above the Audax set you currently have. During the design phase of both the WMTW and TMWW Dennis very favorably compared them to some very expensive comercial designs that he had both heard and helped design. In the end this design may be the giant killer that Jim claims. Hopefully I will have a set built in the next couple of months...

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

That's some really fine work you've done there! And that's a big compliment coming from me seeing as I'm not much of a fan of oak anymore. Just a beautiful job!

Brian,

Thank you! I do take that as a big complement coming from you. I've seen your exquisite work.

I'm a reluctant cabinet builder. For many it's relaxation. For me its work.

Jim

[Fryguy]

I emailed cabinet builder we'll have to see what he says for cost.

If anyone here lives near Western MA and would like to build me some TMWW cabinets it'd be nice

Also, if anyone has other pictures highlighting the bracing used inside of the cabinet it'd be nice too. I've seen some of the pictures, but more can't hurt.

[Brian Bunge]

Jim,

Thank you sir! Now if I can just find time to take measurements (and do so properly) and learn crossover design I'll feel like I'm finally accomplishing something!

Fryguy, there used to be someone in that part of the country that built cabinets for Kyle at Acoustic Visions. I can't remember the guy's name right now for the life of me...