The "Elaine Marie" AKA EM-7 Mk2

[Hank]

"Line Array Is The Only Way"
Well, here I am again, eating lunch at my desk - pathetic, I know. Boy, which smart a__ remarks to respond to first? Okay, Brian, my A/V-3's are quite accurate and the stage is good, but remember those drivers have conventionally small Xmax.

Jon: yes, low distortion is critical, and average Spl of 90 - 96 is a good target area. And yes, I think line array is the only way. I haven't much considered augmented Maggies - would sure be easier, and, the way you're headed, probably less expensive than your simmering Saint-Saiens (which I shall henceforth refer to as High-Maintenance Ladies, as opposed to your new Cheap Tricks).

[JonMarsh]

Jon, did you get my emails with the Dayton and 10 inch PA midrange scans?

Design or asthetic ideals are quite different between the US and Europe, aren't they, no matter whether you look at printed magazines/newspapers, food wrapping, ads on bulletin boards or on TV, cars, clothes, houses, furniture, interior design, eyeglasses...

To #1, I've gotten home late the last couple of nights, no time for personal email.

Re #2, that is so, SO true. Our company has this whole "lifestyle" concept for a Marcom image, typified by stuff like this, from a presentation for a new HV MOSFETs for server power supplies:



This is actaully one of the less annoying ones. Now, this guy is also on the brochure for this new transistor series for server power supplies... as I complained to our product marketing people in Austria, what does he have to do with server power supplies?

In the US, it would be perceived that he looks like a candidate for the TV show "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy", but not the straight guy getting the makeover. This is NOT the image you want to take to US design engineers- I'm blue in the face from trying to explain this to our Marketing people- it's the problem with having a centrally run autocratic organization, which is only beginning to come to grips with the idea of localization and cross cultural issues. They're pretty good about understanding that the Asia Pacific is different from Europe, but they really don't realize that the US, for better or worse, is quite different, too. And they need to adjust their approach.

[cjd]

It might be good if they don't stop short of all the letters in a word too.

C

[JonMarsh]

It might be good if they don't stop short of all the letters in a word too.

C

I wondered about that too, after posting it- look below the beginning of the text - someone didn't make the text box the right size. BTW, this is NOT my presentation, and when I go to the US customers, I WON'T be using this one.


On the other topic, how do you manage to get a job sitting around on your tail doing nothing? I could really get a lot done if I had one of those, instead of the one I have, taking home lots of work for the weekends.

Those PCB's I do for work are SMPS power supplies- demoboards for our new power devices.

Sigh....

[JonMarsh]

"Line Array Is The Only Way"
Well, here I am again, eating lunch at my desk - pathetic, I know. Boy, which smart a__ remarks to respond to first? Okay, Brian, my A/V-3's are quite accurate and the stage is good, but remember those drivers have conventionally small Xmax.

Jon: yes, low distortion is critical, and average Spl of 90 - 96 is a good target area. And yes, I think line array is the only way. I haven't much considered augmented Maggies - would sure be easier, and, the way you're headed, probably less expensive than your simmering Saint-Saiens (which I shall henceforth refer to as High-Maintenance Ladies, as opposed to your new Cheap Tricks).

Hank,

There's nothing pathetic about eating lunch at your desk- I do that every day. Is there? ops:


High Maintenance Ladies? we gotta come up with something better than that...

ON a good week, we like to provide you wtih lots of smart aleck remarks you can respond to....

Right now, I'm using "waiting for Godot" as an excuse for not getting to the Saint-Saens yet- as in Peerless woofers to evalute, as well as shipping versions of the RS sub drivers (the protos are BEAUTS!) I'm thinking seriously in terms of Kloning the Beethoven woofer cabs for the bottom end. If they come in at the pricing I've heard, (which somehow I'm skeptical of) these parts will put a world of hurt on other folks).

[capslock]

Threadjacking again, aren't we both of us?

Now, aesthetics is a very complex field. My recurring impulsive thought on everyday design/aesthetics tends to be that US designers of media or consumer products are light years behind and consumers tend to lack taste in general. On a more reflective level I am aware that designers create trends but probably more so follow market demands. Market demands are dictated by taste, and taste is very much a product of habit and tradition. One does not even need to have grown up in a certain tradition. When I lived in the US for a year, these things stopped bothering me surprisingly quickly.

Now, advertising a technical product for professional customers follows different rules. It should be possible to make upsomething that works anywhere in the world. Let's analyze your pic.

The colors are ok, clear and cool.

The typesetting is undistinguished but ok.

The composition follows very classic rules. Notice the upwards diagonal that the guy's body forms. This symbolized dynamics and success.

I have no idea what made them choose his shirt and hairdo. The gay/straight issue would probably not come up here, but he looks way too artificial and non-serious to be selling a technical product. Coming to think of it, I wonder what he could be selling, and nothing but boutique coffee comes to mind...

Then, of course, the Austrians seem to have different perceptions and sometimes also different concepts of what constitutes acceptable mainstream behavior. Even though they speak the same language (well, sort of) I often have more trouble to understand what makes them tick compared to say French, Scandinavians or Italians, maybe even Americans.

[cjd]

On the other topic, how do you manage to get a job sitting around on your tail doing nothing?

Well, let's see. First, I'm a consultant. Second, they have screwed up rules in place regarding consultants, such that keeping someone familiar with a system/business is tough. Third, there *is* work, they're just one hell of a lot slower than I am. I put in nearly three years on a supply chain project (had to take two 30 day breaks in there). A required 3 month break came up, so I was out the door and let go by the company I was desperate to have let me go (they sucked). Six weeks unemployed, ten weeks with another company, and I got a call to come back for different software, same department. And now we're back to integrating the totally different packages and extend the business model further into them, so my experience is of value.

I should note, I'm the ONLY person that's had my head in the code that long - while I was out this summer/fall, I got at least two calls to help resolve a tech support issue. They want me on the project and the only way they can guarantee that is to not let me out the door, even if they have nothing for me to do.

I do information architecture and user interface design. Dabble in server side stuff (hell, I'm getting ready to bring hosting of my website back in-house for fun - it's hosted free where my dad is nearly done working, so it's also required to some extent). Getting bored with this all, so may try to just be a "creative consultant" - go in, shake things up, get people to stop thinking in ruts (or in most cases, get them to think in the first place), get paid a fortune, walk away to the next fun gig.

Electronics I'm picking up on the side. It's probably time for me to take a class at the local CC since it's cheap and right up the street. Give me somethin to do while my wife finishes up her MBA (though, I rather like being able to watch movies she doesn't like - I'm on an Anime kick right now).

Instead of "High Maintenance Ladies" you could always go "girlfriend" and if you're really dedicated, "wife". I'd stick with girlfriend - better performance, better looks, and. . . yeah.

(I can get away with saying this 'cause my wife is low maintenance and I'm happy with her. :P )

Oh yeah - on the font/missing "G" - could be that the initial draft used a font no-one else has.

And, those shirts are looking to be in-style this side of the pond again. If the ties I saw in the latest Land's End catalog are any indication.

C

[cjd]

Threadjacking again, aren't we both of us?

Now, aesthetics is a very complex field. My recurring impulsive thought on everyday design/aesthetics tends to be that US designers of media or consumer products are light years behind and consumers tend to lack taste in general. On a more reflective level I am aware that designers create trends but probably more so follow market demands. Market demands are dictated by taste, and taste is very much a product of habit and tradition. One does not even need to have grown up in a certain tradition.

Threadjacking is healthy. Keeps the mind working.

Aesthetics in the USoA is dead. It's all play-doh fun factory here. Nothing bold, nothing unique, gotta fit in you know! That extends to brainwashing kids into halting any creative thinking and getting them into the "spew whatcha lernt" mode, all the way through life. Evidenced by an interesting little bit recently posted on Wired (highlighted on slashdot) about a quad of illegal immigrants in a piss-poor school that entered an engineering contest with an $800 budget and won - against MIT and Cambridge and the like (who were also corporate sponsored).

Designers rarely see their designs actually happen. Marketing, Finance, and Engineering all turn it into something else. Often as not, understandably so, since too many designers are just as much clueless dolts as the rest of the crew - most haven't an idea how to make something work, so their design could easily be quite impossible.

C

[dawaro]

High Maintenance Ladies

How about Divas? It sounds familiar so I think someone may have already used it but it has a little more PC feel than high maintenance ladies.

[Dennis H]

Trophy wives?

[JonMarsh]

Threadjacking again, aren't we both of us?

Now, aesthetics is a very complex field. My recurring impulsive thought on everyday design/aesthetics tends to be that US designers of media or consumer products are light years behind and consumers tend to lack taste in general. On a more reflective level I am aware that designers create trends but probably more so follow market demands. Market demands are dictated by taste, and taste is very much a product of habit and tradition. One does not even need to have grown up in a certain tradition. When I lived in the US for a year, these things stopped bothering me surprisingly quickly.

Now, advertising a technical product for professional customers follows different rules. It should be possible to make upsomething that works anywhere in the world. Let's analyze your pic.

The colors are ok, clear and cool.

The typesetting is undistinguished but ok.

The composition follows very classic rules. Notice the upwards diagonal that the guy's body forms. This symbolized dynamics and success.

I have no idea what made them choose his shirt and hairdo. The gay/straight issue would probably not come up here, but he looks way too artificial and non-serious to be selling a technical product. Coming to think of it, I wonder what he could be selling, and nothing but boutique coffee comes to mind...

Then, of course, the Austrians seem to have different perceptions and sometimes also different concepts of what constitutes acceptable mainstream behavior. Even though they speak the same language (well, sort of) I often have more trouble to understand what makes them tick compared to say French, Scandinavians or Italians, maybe even Americans.

Well, as you can tell, I'm a rather poor moderator (don't know why they gave me this job, obviously not qualified to "moderate") because as you point out, I'm as likely to threadjack my own threads just as much as anyone elses. But like Chris said elsewhere today, it can be a good think promoting mental agility, eh?


I appreciate your serious comments, but the last paragraph has me :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

There's a lot of dialog internally about the German vs Austrian thing; in our division, the head of Marketing is Austrian, and from the Villach area (family has a farm there), and since our technical marketing and product marketing groups were re-located there from Munich in November 2003, the representation from the Oestereich has only increased-

Your comments above sound very consonant with our IFX Corporate Style guide, of which I have a copy (yeah, normally just reserved for Marcom types, but then I have a copy of Quark Xpress, too- sort of makes me an Honorary...)

However, what I think you DO get, is that this is NOT generating a positive emotive reaction in our target US designers... maybe if there were more gals that were engineers over here, but compared to Europe, it's very, VERY uncommon. It's as if the Marcom folks made an advert program that appeals to THEM (what they think should be appealing to any "right thinking person"), not caring about the target audience. Guess it's human nature to be a bit provincial- lord only knows we are over here.

Our Intel rep FAE is a nice lady, and there's a couple I used to know when working the Automotive side of the business, but it must be under 5%. Sure couldn't interest my daughter in it, but there's a lot of reason- the geek image thing, and then too, my daughter knows the hours I put in, and frankly, has no interest in a job that demanding with so little (comparatively) social or monetary reward.

As even our PM's over here say, we're successful in spite of our advertising and web site, certainly not because of them.

~Jon

[capslock]

Guess it's human nature to be a bit provincial- lord only knows we are over here.

Well, the Italians call it "campanilismo" after campanile, the bellfry of a traditional village or city church, and their are even proud of it. Just think of how even in cites like Venice or Siena, the different "sestiere" (town quarters) fiercely protect their own identity, and in the case of Siena almost literally go to war for a couple of days per year.

I guess it is ok to cultivate a little campanilismo as long as one remembers that others are likely to be doing the same thing.

[capslock]

To continue the digression about cultures:

There seems to be a photo exhibition called "hungry world" somewhere in the Napa Valley, which is going to be open only for a few more weeks. A team of photographers took photos of families from really all over the world along with their weekly pruchases of food. Quite impressive and revealing!

Some of those pics were in GEO magazine (our equivalent of National Geographic with maybe a bit of an art magazine mixed into the bag, I am sure you have seen those light green, letter sized magazines).

[cjd]

A team of photographers took photos of families from really all over the world along with their weekly pruchases of food.

I'm now going to be very self-conscious this evening while doing our weekly grocery shopping. Though it's probably not anything near as bad as most folks that live around me. :|

C

[JonMarsh]

Just to really shake everyone up, I'm going back "On Topic", becuase the batch of crossover parts for the first proto's came in last night.

Just for reference, the set of crossover parts for my Modula MTM's was about $150 without the fandy-dancy capacitors; this batch was ~$95, so there is some cost savings in this approach.

OTOH, I have a weekend of work-work looming, as new assignments with very short fuses from headquarters have put me in something of a bind, as I was already short on time for my work load. Basically, I need about three weekends this weekend to have any hope of getting caught up. I don't think that's going to happen.

Maybe I'll hookup the new Audiophile 192 sound card in the HTPC, and put it on shuffle play all weekend long for the 180GB of uncompressed CD audio I have on HD now... OTOH, getting up to change the CD's is needed excercise, in a fashion...

[Hank]

Jon, the grin on the guy's face suggests he's viewing something other than power MOSFET's.

I was trying to maintain a modicum of docorum in this joint, but since "High Maintenance Ladies" didn't work, then it's "High Class Ho's".

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, it looked to me like he was surfing those kinds of sites that are locked out from our work internet access... those sites now include ones with "weapons", like the US Military official site for the Joint Strike Fighter. For which we're selling some of our advanced not commercially released Silicon Carbide power parts for evaluations, due to their ability to work at 250C.



Hank, ALWAYS say what you mean! :T

You're among friends, after all!

~Jon

[Brian Bunge]

Hank,

It must be bad when I can't even ask an honest question without being labeled a smartass. But then I guess I've built up that reputation over the years!

I was mainly asking because I've never heard this version of the A/V-3's and was wondering how well they met your criteria. Sounds like the stresses of work are getting to you, old fella!

Jon,

I think "lifestyle" should be outlawed. It started with Bose (that should be reason enough) and now it seems everyone is going that route.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, it's the latest Marketing/Marcom fad..... they forgot that all us corporate droids like Hank and myself helping to create, sell, and deliver, with our corporate jobs, don't have much of a life, much less a "lifestyle"!

Think it's time for a mid life crisis- need to go buy me a new motorcycle, since tearing down my 650 Honday to get it running will take too long...

[justanie]

em-7 1st edition

Hi Guys,

I'm new to the htguide forum, have to say, you guys know your stuff.

Question- Is there a published crossover schematic for the EM-7 mk1, Hi-Vi d6 and vifa xt25. I have these drivers on hand, and would ilke to build a pair.

Any help would be much appreciated............

Justin.

[JonMarsh]

No - I'd have to dig back into some files off a hard drive on a PC that was junked years ago to find that- it would probably take less time to redesign it with the current crossover. One or the other by next weekend sometime.

Would recommend upgrading the tweeter to an RS28a- they're similar enough in impedance and FR from 1 kHz to 15 kHz to exchange; baffle mount is the same, too. The XT25 is a little strained in the lower part of that range with this crossover, but my daughter doesn't play them that loud.

I've been kicking around the idea of asking Evil Twin to revisit that design with the D6.8 just to annoy people- it has a really awesome bottom end as a single 6-1/2", beyond what you might expect from the Xmax. Maybe there's something to the 3" VC; the motor is surprisingly linear considering there's little control of VC inductance rise.

[justanie]

Thanks so much John,

I also have a pair of d6.8s sitting around, I agree with you, Killer bass from such a small driver,

I would prefer to use these anyway (6.8). If there is an xo around the corner for these, that would the cooool

Thanks John, for your quick responce, your work is awesome...

Justin

[justanie]

Thats 6.8 not 6.smiley, sorry

[chasw98]

Jon:
A little off topic, but........., where did you get the rack case you built the crossover in? Make and model or vendor. perhaps? Thanks.

Chuck

[ThomasW]

Most of Jon's chassis come from http://www.par-metal.com/

I don't know if the XO chassis came from them....

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, the crossover chasis came from another company, SESCOM. (online). That chasis was a 2RU12, I believe.

That was before I discovered Parmetal, which is all I use now for electronics projects. The 14 series in black anodized are pretty cool, as are the 20 series. I tried the 10 series for one project, but forgot what a pain working with steel panels is.

[chasw98]

Yeah, the crossover chasis came from another company, SESCOM. (online). That chasis was a 2RU12, I believe.

That was before I discovered Parmetal, which is all I use now for electronics projects. The 14 series in black anodized are pretty cool, as are the 20 series. I tried the 10 series for one project, but forgot what a pain working with steel panels is.

Thanks, that is quite a good looking "home made" unit! :B :T

Chuck

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the kind words. This picture looks better... the one that was submitted for the CLIOWIN Grand Prix.




That was a long time ago, though I still have that unit and bare PCB's and the design docs and enough parts to probably build a couple more. It has a couple of EQ stages on the upper and lower outputs, so it can be tailored for things like BSC or LF dipole boost. The AD power video buffers used in the output will drive ludicrous loads (even speakers!), so with the Jensen transforms it's still very wide bandwidth and system friendly due to the full balanced outputs with very high CMRR.

[Jcake5]

Thank you for your efforts Jon

I look forward to your posting of the XO for the Peerless drivers.

Kind regards,
Eric