The "Elaine Marie" AKA EM-7 Mk2

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15284

    The "Elaine Marie" AKA EM-7 Mk2

    Boy, am I going to catch h@ll from Eric about this one...


    This is one of those little projects that just kind of sneaks up on you... the precursor is the EM7 I did in 2003 for my daugher, a small MT with the HiVi D6.8 woofer and XT25 speaker, to replace the speakers we built when she was about 12 that were damaged at her mother's house. I took those speakers to the Northern CA DIY in 2003, and with the moderately prodigous bass output the little HiVi Dynaudio Klone woofer has (a clone right down to 3" VC and neodyminum magnets), it was probably the most full range small system exhibited. But there were things I wasn't totally happy with in the upper midrange and presence region. This was speaker an attempt at doing some sort of series crossover, just for fun.



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    Now, what I'm going to show next is more a design study than a project, as it's just a few hours work riding home on the train in the evening, using data from one of the Christmas time measuring sessions, for the Peerless 850439 and SEAS 27TDFC. I picked up two pairs of the Peerless woofers last year for about half price, and one pair is destined for a speaker like this for an old friend back east. The other set may wind up in an MT for rears or bedroom speakers or whatever. They'll use the same type PE cabinet as my daughter's but this time I bought Cherry cabinets.

    Strangely, I've had several requests recently about an MT with the Peerless or Dayton 7's, something not quite as "complicated" as the Modula MTM. With the upper range breakup modes in the aluminum cone Daytons, I don't think they're a good candidate for a simplified speaker. But perhaps I've come up with something that will work, with reduced component count.

    The crossover is shown below- it's somewhat different than the one for my daughter's speaker. Well, actually, it's a lot different; one of the things about LspCAD 6 is that it's completely free-form in network drawing, and is free of the limitations version 5 has for modeling strange configurations in a series crossover. So, my imagination could cut loose a lot more with this one. Actually, I managed to retain a "trademark" feature- this crossover does use a partial cauer-elliptic filter section on the low pass, to help suppress the upper end peak of the midwoofer at 4.2 kHz.



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    I wasn't really sure whether this was going to work out, as with a series crossover the components interact in their affects on both drivers, but I'm somewhat optimistic now, especially given the robust characteristics of the 27TDFC, and the modeling possible with LspCAD6.

    The acoustical target for each driver is third order, but with L-R coefficients, not Butterworth. As designed for the physical offset of acoustical centers, if the tweeter is connected out of phase, a deep null appears at the nominal crossover point of 1850 Hz. This isn't a Butterworth alignment, because both polarities would work for on axis response, with the usual lobe off axis. Also, the main crossosver lobe in the vertical direction is almost straight forward- also a good thing. But doing this requires some compromise in the front axial response, as suggested by Robert Bullock for the conventional 4th order L-R.

    The tweeter and woofer data used was taken in a 9" wide cabinet, but smaller and not ported, so the LF response is not as the final design in the PE cabinet. Due to the pressure zone B&K capsule, there's something of a measurement artefact hard to avoid someitmes, so ignore the roll off above 16 kHz.

    The intended use for these speakers is for a non-audiophile friend, and more for background music listening or off axis use, so the power response is much more important than the front axial response- with this higher crossover frequency, and using a modified series network, it takes some care to optimize this, and the final results will not be as ideal as with one of my more complex parallel cauer filters. But the component count and cost is about half, a not inconsiderable benefit. So, be aware of the trade-offs.

    L4, C8, and R9 together with L2 and C1 and R8 determine the LF roll off characteristic for the midwoofer, including baffle step compensation; L4, C8, and R9 form the elliptic portion of the filter. C1, L3, R3, R4 and R8 determine the tweeter filter high pass - no notch or elliptic filter here.

    This plot gives an overview of axis and off axis curves, and the net predicted power response.

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    How many of you remember when Luxman tried to introduce a speaker, and brought out a two way model around 1976, using a kevlar midwoofer? B&W, which had their distribution in Japan through Luxman, was furious, and pressured Luxman into withdrawing that speaker from the market. It was a very interesting little bookshelf- much better sounding than the comparable B&W models we had in the shop at that time- very nice imaging, too. It didn't measure all that flat on axis, but the overall power response was quite smooth...

    Here's a plot of the predicted impedance curve; this looks pretty ideal for the average solid state amp; 5-10 ohms over much of the range, pretty much ideal for getting juice of out midrange gear. Fairly easy phase angle, too.


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    The highish (by my standards) crossover point results in some narrowing of the polar plot in around 1500 Hz, just before the crossover, but compared with most conventional two ways, the predicted performance looks quite good. It would suffer only in comparison with something like the Modula MTM, I think, with it's lower crossover point.


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    This won't have the prodigous low bass output capability of an Extremis woofer, but then it's about 4 dB more efficient, and should have nice characteristics down to the high 30's, expecting about -4 dB at 34 - 36 Hz, using a 2" flared Precision Port. :B

    Every now and then I have to throw a curve ball just to keep you guys on your toes...

    Thanks to Dennis H for catching some mistakes in my post!
    Last edited by theSven; 16 May 2023, 16:12 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location
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  • Dennis H
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Aug 2002
    • 3791

    #2
    Interesting XO, Jon!

    requiring the tweeter to be wired out of phase.
    I'm confused. It looks like both drivers have the polarity reversed so wouldn't they still be in phase with each other?

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15284

      #3
      No, Dennis, you're not confused, I am!

      It's a good thing we have eagle eyed proof readers for me when I"m lazin around on a Sunday afternoon- I made a mistake drawing the schematic, evidently, and the tweeter polarity is checked for reverse. What I didn't notice is that the woofer is, too. ops: Must be taking dufus pills this weekend! :roll:

      Better go fix that....
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      Comment

      • Bent
        Super Senior Member
        • Sep 2003
        • 1570

        #4
        hmmm, I guess I can't go on calling my BP 1503 based AS-15 based SW 12 based subwoofer the "Heretic" anymore, huh?

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15284

          #5
          Hey, no problem, Bent, I'll change it to something else; unfortunately, "Heresy" is take by some company...

          It's done... "Heretic" is yours....
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          • Bent
            Super Senior Member
            • Sep 2003
            • 1570

            #6
            Well now I feel terrible - I wanted to stuff some smileys into that post, but since I used a quick reply and my coding isn't really up to snuff I didn't do so - it came across as curt and snotty.
            I do much like The "Elaine Marie" though - very classy.
            I picked the name Heretic because a sub the size of the AS-15 (and mine, for that matter) doesn't subscribe to conventional beliefs that home theater subs should be understated and unobtrusive - they should be a littl;e more against the grain.

            I think it suits.

            Comment

            • TacoD
              Super Senior Member
              • Feb 2004
              • 1078

              #7
              Wow, I thought Jon was hooked to 8th order Cauer parallel configuration .

              I've one question, why you have swapped the position of the coil L2 and the tweeter? Is this done to tame the woofer with this extra resistor R8?

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15284

                #8
                Originally posted by Bent
                Well now I feel terrible - I wanted to stuff some smileys into that post, but since I used a quick reply and my coding isn't really up to snuff I didn't do so - it came across as curt and snotty.
                I do much like The "Elaine Marie" though - very classy.
                I picked the name Heretic because a sub the size of the AS-15 (and mine, for that matter) doesn't subscribe to conventional beliefs that home theater subs should be understated and unobtrusive - they should be a littl;e more against the grain.

                I think it suits.
                The original EM-7 was for my daughter, Elaine Marie being her first and middle names.

                I think your name for your sub is fine- that's how we felt when we did the HE-15 version way back... everyone else was doing the Stryke cube with PR's; we built one, too, but didn't like the sound quality. That's what resulted, as you know, in the AS-15, the forebearer to your project.
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                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15284

                  #9
                  Originally posted by TacoD
                  Wow, I thought Jon was hooked to 8th order Cauer parallel configuration .

                  I've one question, why you have swapped the position of the coil L2 and the tweeter? Is this done to tame the woofer with this extra resistor R8?

                  well, the idea was to reduce the number of parts compared with the 8th order equivalnet Cauer elliptic- this is a "cost-down" design, only about half the parts for the total network. This translates into about a $50 saving per cabinet- not insubstantial. Good crossovers tend to be expensive.

                  The topological arrangement is a slight modification of the standard series network, which has many drawbacks, IMO. R8 does affect the tuning in the midband, as well as the BSC. As in more conventional series crossovers, many things interact, which can make getting a working design difficult, and which makes for some constraints- as well as for additional components.

                  My conventional approach would be more desirable from a performance viewpoint; this is easy to demonstrate. But it costs more and would be hard to fit in this small cabinet (3/4 cu. ft).
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                  Comment

                  • capslock
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2004
                    • 410

                    #10
                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                    Boy, am I going to catch h@ll from Eric about this one...

                    Nope. You can do a lot worse than a non-plugged HDS. But I have an idea how to retrofit a non-plugged HDS with most of the motor improvement of the PP version. Will post in the Peerless thread, but probably not before I've finished the last 100 pages of the book that had me hooked most of the weekend (Jennifer Fallon, Medalon Trilogy, part two).

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15284

                      #11
                      Isn't it inconvenient when a really good book starts eating into your time that way? I picked up the first in an older trilogy by George R.R. Martin, "A Game of Thrones", and I've really had to use some self discipline to not just sit down and let the world go by...

                      I'll be interested to hear your idea... figured you might cringe a bit at the floppy poly, but this driver is better behaved than most of that type.

                      Also, becuase of the cauer element in the network, this might be adaptable to the new PP series...

                      Not that I plan to go into high volume production of (for me) budget 7" two ways...
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                      Comment

                      • capslock
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2004
                        • 410

                        #12
                        Well, I have many obligations and hobbies competing for my time.

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15284

                          #13
                          Originally posted by capslock
                          Well, I have many obligations and hobbies competing for my time.

                          THAT sounds familiar, though I've been a bit excessively focussed on this speaker stuff lately. I want to get those projects out of the way this year so I can devote some time to power amps- a lot of simulation and component procurement, but no building anything the last two years.

                          There are other things, too- I'm way overdue for my midlife crisis. Perhaps another shiny read and silver motorcycle? Something with a little more pep than my Honda V twin...
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                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • cjd
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Dec 2004
                            • 5568

                            #14
                            Originally posted by JonMarsh
                            There are other things, too- I'm way overdue for my midlife crisis. Perhaps another shiny read and silver motorcycle? Something with a little more pep than my Honda V twin...
                            You can't read a book whilst riding that!

                            Me, I think you treat all this stuff waaay too much like work. If this isn't the stuff you *want* to escape work with, you should spend more time with that book! Otherwise, enjoy the read.

                            Are you able to read and listen at the same time? (my some day music room will also be my library and gallery. That is, for listening and making music [violin for me], reading, and displaying some of the metalwork, glass work, and ceramics I've done over the years... seems a right good combo to me.

                            See, now this thread is even entirely off topic. :P

                            C
                            diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                            Comment

                            • Frank L.
                              Junior Member
                              • Nov 2004
                              • 10

                              #15
                              Jon,

                              I may be a bit biased, but I would suggest you find a nice lightly used Valkyrie.
                              I get a lot of questions like "what model Harley is that" or I didn't know Harley made anything that big". My Wife has a VT1100 shadow, and the difference is night and day. Our last trip home from Gatlinburg, guess who had to ride her Shadow V-Twin? 8)
                              'Will send you a pic when I locate which disc it is on--should have left one on the hard drive.
                              Also, I posted a question on the Mad forum before I saw this new thread this morning. If I can get the WAF up high enough to use the .75 cabinets, then these look great for rear channels. :banghead:

                              Frank

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15284

                                #16
                                Yeah, those flat sixes are pretty nice! I've got an 81 CBX in the garage that needs some restoration work- one more thing to do when I'm retired some day?

                                Have you ever ridden that big honker Honday's doing? The 1800 V Twin? They say it works pretty well for that kind of bike- more neutral steering than a Harley VROD, for instance.

                                I'm going to probably use the second set of these for rear's, too, as I can't quite justifiy kitchen or bathroom speakers... ;^) though I know someone else who'd probably like these, also. I'm a little out of practice on high bang for the buck (spending too much time on making the bang bigger, eh?), but these may do pretty well.
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                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • Paul H
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Feb 2004
                                  • 904

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                  I'm going to probably use the second set of these for rear's, too, as I can't quite justifiy kitchen or bathroom speakers... ;^)

                                  Jon,

                                  You're amongst friends here - you can justify bathroom speakers :lol:

                                  Paul

                                  Comment

                                  • Frank L.
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Nov 2004
                                    • 10

                                    #18
                                    Jon,

                                    That '81 CBX is becoming quite collectable from what I understand. I have heard that they are a bit of a beast in the handling department however.
                                    The only time I have been on a VTX, was just a short in town ride. Wonderful amount of torque. They have a smaller 1300cc version now, that I wish had been available when we got my wifes 1100 Shadow. I am just spoiled by the flat 6 power and smoothness,especially for highway cruising over distances. Although I really like the narrowness of a V-Twin style bike.
                                    I guess that is enough off topic stuff. Keep me posted on how the EM-7 Mk2 project is coming along, as I think we can probably beat the Paradigm Atom's that are currently doing duty as rear channels.
                                    :driving:

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                                    Last edited by theSven; 16 May 2023, 16:14 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location

                                    Comment

                                    • Frank L.
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Nov 2004
                                      • 10

                                      #19
                                      Oh, and I forgot to ask, although this is probably a topic for a different thread, did you and Mark K. get to do any subwoofer driver testing over the weekend? I am very interested in the results. I am using an 88.5 L. sealed box with 500W PE amp and a Shiva that I picked up from Thomas W. and I like the overall sound, but I can't help feel thet the Shiva could be improved upon in power handling and extension.
                                      By the way, the 500W amp is waaay to much power for a single Shiva, but I wanted some room to grow.

                                      Thanks,

                                      Frank

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15284

                                        #20
                                        We did do some subwoofer testing, but more to have comparative data with a prototype he was evaluating- a 10" driver, for which there will also be a comparable 12. We did some quick tests for FR and nonlinear distortion on a Titanic MkII 10" woofer, and the TC Sounds TC2+ (12", available from OAudio). The 10" prototype Mark has performs very well, in overall distortion spectra even a little better than the TC2+, which puts it in the creme de la creme. They'll be something to watch for in three months or so. Both Mark and I are interested in drivers with distortion that is low in the 20-50Hz region, but doesn't climb above that, due to VC inductance; the TC2+ is probably the best available driver in that regards right now.
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                                        Comment

                                        • capslock
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2004
                                          • 410

                                          #21
                                          Proto sub coming out in three months -- is that the Dayton RS sub?

                                          Here's a quote from Darren interviewed on Pjay's site:

                                          "I've done in-depth design work on the shielded DVC drivers and most recently, the Reference Series woofers. I think that the yet-to-be-released Reference Series subwoofers I've been working on will be some of the most impressive and heavily engineered/tweaked drivers in the Dayton Loudspeaker brand to date."

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15284

                                            #22
                                            Well, I'd go along with that quote from Darren. It's a VERY good looking driver as regards build quality- in quite a different league from the Dayton Titanic series. Clearly using Faraday sleeving, based on measured HF distortion, and the only thing I've seen competitive or better than the TC2+ in that class.

                                            At this rate, I'm just going to be transformed into a full time schill for Dayton Loudspeakers, except for the occasional Peerless midwoofer, BG RD ribbons, and low end Seas tweeters....
                                            the AudioWorx
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                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • capslock
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Dec 2004
                                              • 410

                                              #23
                                              Well, these threads have a habit of deviating from the original topic. Maybe it is time to dedicate a thread to the RS sub?

                                              I have never laid eyes on a Titanic MkIII, but at the price, it hardly seems a bargain. Also, the diagram does not make much sense to me. What good is the small copper ring sitting on the top of the pole piece supposed to do? Rings at the base of the pole piece, yes, that's the cheap alternative to full shielding or shielding with a ring directly below and above an undercut pole piece. But a ring only on the top of the extended cylindrical pole piece???

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15284

                                                #24
                                                Well, you've got me there, Eric.

                                                Re the new RS10, I wish I'd had my camera with me, I'd have snapped a couple of pics of it (if Mark would have let me...). It's a honey... makes the TC2+ look a little crude in build quality. Like the TC drivers, it uses a four spoke cast frame, not the airfoil spoke like the DPL12 and other Titanics. The pole peice vent is huge. The only thing missing re build quality compared with the TC2+ is VC leads woven into the spider.
                                                the AudioWorx
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                                                M8ta
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                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

                                                • capslock
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Dec 2004
                                                  • 410

                                                  #25
                                                  Funny that there are going to be two 10 in. drivers in the reference series. Does the new one have signifcantly higher xmax? Paper/fiber cone? Has Darren let anything perspire about pricing?

                                                  (actually, I'll post that question on the PE board)

                                                  Comment

                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 15284

                                                    #26
                                                    Well, it's a Reference subwoofer driver, as opposed to the RS270, which is just a woofer- a nice one, though.

                                                    The cone is, naturally enough, black anodized aluminum. Straight sides, with a moderate size dust cap/dome, also black aluminum. From the magnet side, a very large pole piece vent is evident. The pole piece stackup is polished black finish also. Surround is a rubber type, not too wide, more deep than their previous Dayton designs. As mentioned previously, it's a square four spoke design, similar to TC Sounds baskets.

                                                    Evil Twin will approve with both thumbs up, I'm sure. Especially since handsome is as handsome does.
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                                                    Comment

                                                    • Mark K
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Feb 2002
                                                      • 388

                                                      #27
                                                      Eric,
                                                      I don't want to get too much into the RS subs. The one I have is just an early prototype. It is not the final design. So I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. I won't post any stuff on this, since, well, it doesn't exist as a production driver. It may or may not be.
                                                      www.audioheuristics.org

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15284

                                                        #28
                                                        A little update on this project (getting back on topic) -

                                                        I've been investigating alternative tweeters, since I have so many sitting around, and have a pretty nice looking (on paper) design with the RS28a. Also about a 2 kHz crossover point.

                                                        I suspect I'm going to buy several sets of baffles and try out a few versions of this little guy- maybe the design will be transferable to one of the new Nomex drivers from Peerless.

                                                        After all, although Hank Frankenberg and I are pretty much agreed that the world doesn't need another 6" two way design, sometimes it's just so much fun to crank them out... ;^)
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                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Hank
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Jul 2002
                                                          • 1345

                                                          #29
                                                          After all, although Hank Frankenberg and I are pretty much agreed that the world doesn't need another 6" two way design, sometimes it's just so much fun to crank them out... ;^)
                                                          To paraphrase:
                                                          Bookshelves? Bookshelves? We don't need no stinkin' bookshelves!

                                                          My challenge to the world's great speaker designers: Where's the speaks that can play at concert (NOT Rock music) levels and deliver the detail to place and pick out instruments in the orchestra (or symphonic band :wink: ) with correct soundstage width and depth?

                                                          I'm just skimmin' through, between meetings and corporate pressure, eating at my desk recovering from a call from a projector mfgr that they can't get enough lamps for one of our upcoming models because the Rear Projection TV mfgrs are buying up this particular lamp size. Grrrr....

                                                          BTW, Jon, my aforementioned speaker should be affordable, unlike your simmering brainchild St. Saiens :W

                                                          Comment

                                                          • cjd
                                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                                            • Dec 2004
                                                            • 5568

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Hank
                                                            BTW, Jon, my aforementioned speaker should be affordable, unlike your simmering brainchild St. Saiens :W
                                                            Heh. That's my goal. How close I get, who knows. A Saint-Saëns setup of your very own vs. how many years of symphony ticket subscriptions. Hmmm. Tough call.

                                                            C
                                                            diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15284

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Hank
                                                              To paraphrase:
                                                              Bookshelves? Bookshelves? We don't need no stinkin' bookshelves!

                                                              :W

                                                              Ah, yes.... well, that was my recollection of how you put it the last time, too, but I thought I'd err on the side of understatement...




                                                              Originally posted by Hank
                                                              My challenge to the world's great speaker designers: Where's the speaks that can play at concert (NOT Rock music) levels and deliver the detail to place and pick out instruments in the orchestra (or symphonic band :wink: ) with correct soundstage width and depth?


                                                              BTW, Jon, my aforementioned speaker should be affordable, unlike your simmering brainchild St. Saiens :W

                                                              Yeah, and lotsa folks wants a Mustang GT (2005 model) for the price of a Dodge Neon, too. (and I still hear that folks in Hades would like icewater service!)

                                                              Sigh... and I wish I could get Praxis for $250, too.

                                                              I still think a lot of what Hank needs and wants is very low levels of distortion along with is 106-110 dB, especially at typical moderately high levels... that's why I'm gearing up for some more driver testing, and why I'm figuring it WILL take a line array setup.

                                                              The $64 question is, how cheap could it be done? And would it really be better to stack some MMG's? I'm sure that would be quicker, so I'm leaving that idea for the other team, whoever they are...

                                                              When I get my Praxis setup, I intend to measure the MMG's at Thomas's just to see how well they behave regarding ETC plots and nonlinear distortion at moderate levesl (say, 90 dB to 96 dB?)

                                                              I'm still going to do my own X1 rework project (upgrading my X1 Klone upper modules, and doing "small" matching bass cabinets with dual RS270's per cabinet). That's just to spur Chris and Brian on. Since it's more "cost oriented", and desined for high SPL also, and will add the cauer-elliptic crossover (not used in the first version) I came up with a new name for that system:

                                                              Cheap Trick

                                                              It all fits in- rock and roll instead of classical/acoustical optimization, yah see. OK, so it's been used by a band. Hopefull they won't complain any more than Camille.

                                                              ~Jon



                                                              ~Jon
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                                                              Comment

                                                              • cjd
                                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                                • Dec 2004
                                                                • 5568

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                That's just to spur Chris and Brian on.
                                                                If you want to do that, you'll have to apply some form of greater acceptance and understanding balm to my wife. She does not respond to jewelry or diamonds.

                                                                I will very likely be doing some "mini" versions along this line for my HT (where I have ~6" maybe 6.5" of width available between my screen and the wall on one side). Possibly RS125 MTM's plus a bass module. I may try to squeeze the RS150 into a 6" wide box.

                                                                But, before I get there it looks like I may end up trying a 5.1 ultra-mini setup for my computer desk, including amp design and active XO. And that's not anywhere too terribly soon I think, 'cause it's garden time.

                                                                C
                                                                diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15284

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by cjd
                                                                  If you want to do that, you'll have to apply some form of greater acceptance and understanding balm to my wife. She does not respond to jewelry or diamonds.


                                                                  C

                                                                  What, a wife that doesn't respond to jewelry or diamonds? Chris, you're straining your credibility, here.

                                                                  Yeah, April is garden time- if you have a yard and a wife, that's for sure.

                                                                  Having neither, I have to plead that it will probably be the pot bubbling over of things getting piled on my desk at work as my excuse for an apparent lack of progress. Someone in technical marketing in Austria has seemingly decided I'm his new team assistant... :evil:
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                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • cjd
                                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                                    • Dec 2004
                                                                    • 5568

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                    What, a wife that doesn't respond to jewelry or diamonds? Chris, you're straining your credibility, here.

                                                                    Yeah, April is garden time- if you have a yard and a wife, that's for sure.
                                                                    On the former, I usually just get "you lucky b$*#()@&" She *is* a sucker for shoes, but I think she would get suspicious of that many shoes. . .

                                                                    On the latter, it's largely my taste-buds that command me to long days in the sun.

                                                                    What's the revised top part of your X1 rework?
                                                                    diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 15284

                                                                      #35
                                                                      The X1 Klones looked like this:



                                                                      The bottom modules are gone- too big, and didn't want to keep running them in biamp mode. This was something I was working on in the mid nineties, and the finished vesion was entred into the CLIOWIN Grand Prix (took 1st).

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                                                                      It used a hybrid approach, with a passive crossover for the midwoofer to tweeter transistion on the upper module, and an active crossover that I designed and built (Jensen transformers on the balanced outputs, AD715 video buffers in the output stage) and managed the LF EQ and baffle step comp (the woofers were Audax Pro, very efficient, very over damps; Qts of under 0.2 if I remember correctly).

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                                                                      I'm considering taking out the Eton midwoofers and going to some Peerless Nomex Exclusive series drivers if they are as low in midband distortion as I hope. I'm planning on measuring the Focal 120 tweeter in more detail regarding distortion, and may or may not keep them in the system. We've got a few pairs back of those, even though Focal has quit the DIY scene.

                                                                      The idea is to mate this with a more compact bottom end cabinet and an all passive crossover- sort of like converting a Wilson X1 to a Wilson Maxx.

                                                                      The crossover may get adapted to the Saint-Saens project- it's quite flexible, has provision for LF EQ on both LP and HP outputs.
                                                                      Last edited by theSven; 16 May 2023, 16:24 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                      the AudioWorx
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                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Jam_Master_J
                                                                        Member
                                                                        • Mar 2005
                                                                        • 36

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Jon,
                                                                        Would you be offended if I tried to date your daughter only so I could get closer to some of your excellent looking speakers?

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • cjd
                                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                                          • Dec 2004
                                                                          • 5568

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Hmmmm. Nice Active unit! I spent a good part of my day trying to get a grasp on the math. My problem right now is being unsure what unit to use when inserting component values (i.e. are all cap values in F so I have to float the decimal over a few when considering the normal µF or nF values). Little desktop 5.1 project I'm pondering (sub + B3S or B3N) to get my teeth into active crossover stuff (already been doing the amp stuff, but this'll also be my first PCB).

                                                                          I must be honest, I think half the size on those W-P clones is psychological. The top box isn't exactly small, but the heavy black and the shape makes it ponderous and clunky visually. Sometimes, I'm not sure whether all the years in art school are a benefit or a drawback.

                                                                          C
                                                                          diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Brian Bunge
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Nov 2001
                                                                            • 1389

                                                                            #38
                                                                            So Hank, those A/V-3's aren't quite reaching your goal for you? Other than the SPL requirements how close are they?

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                                              • 15284

                                                                              #39
                                                                              In this pic they look like they're 7 feet tall, whereas they're really only about 6....

                                                                              I want to wind up with something smaller, more like 4-1/2 to 5, and slimmer. Shouldn't be hard to do with the RS270's; already got the BB ply (before Xmas). Just haven't found the time, yet.
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                                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Dan B
                                                                                Member
                                                                                • Feb 2005
                                                                                • 87

                                                                                #40
                                                                                aluminum cone Daytons?

                                                                                Hi Jon,
                                                                                Does this:

                                                                                >>>With the upper range breakup modes in the aluminum cone Daytons, I don't think they're a good candidate for a simplified speaker. But perhaps I've come up with something that will work, with reduced component count.<<<

                                                                                mean your "Elaine Marie" crossover would work with the Seas and 7 inch Daytons?
                                                                                Dan B

                                                                                My Projects

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                                  • 15284

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Hello Dan,

                                                                                  No, it's focused on the Peerless 850439 driver, a low distortion sandwich cone part from Peerless.

                                                                                  It's a problem in my mind making a good small speaker, because you don't want the crossover to cost three times what the drivers do...

                                                                                  The Modula MTM design shows a reasonable way (IMO) to use the Dayton RS 7" midwoofers with the Seas, but the crossover is quite similar to the M8 two way design- it fits in the MTM cabinet, but takes a bit of planning, and the crossover costs as much as the drivers. Still, it get's a nice level of performance.

                                                                                  Now, try to take that down to an MT design in a smaller box, and the crossover becomes even more of an issue. We used that approach with the Extremis MT, but then the Extremis driver is $99 all by itself.

                                                                                  Making a moderately compact MT based on a 7" woofer is a real exercise in trade-offs, and trying to get as much performance as possible while keeping the design compact and sort of reasonbly priced.

                                                                                  The Peerless woofer doesn't have the high breakup mode output in the 7-14 kHz region which the Dayton RS180 has. It has a small peak at ~ 4 kHz, but the ETC behavior is pretty nice up to 1800~2000 Hz.

                                                                                  This crossover is a "quasi-series" network with additional parallel elements, and also uses a cauer-elliptic filter to notch the 4kHz driver resonance- it's more complex than I hoped to implement, but quite a bit less expensive than the Modula MTM crossover would be adapted to an MT design for the Daytons.

                                                                                  I've also been experimenting with some other tweeters in the design synthesis, like the Dayton RS28a-4, which many of us are anticipating with great interest due to it's advanced Faraday shield on the pole peice inner and outer poles, and resulting very low upper range harmonic distortion. It's also rather good down low, too, something necessary for a tweeter that doesn't have a steep roll off crossover.

                                                                                  I may get a couple of extra baffle panel sets for the cabinets I have so I can try out different tweeters. I may also try out one of the newer Peerless midwoofers (when they're available), as the 850439 have gone "end of life", and while in stock in the US, they're not available from Peerless anymore, pending availability of the new version.

                                                                                  The 830875 is the closest drop in in the new line....


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                                                                                  Though the "premium replacement" would be the 830883, with it's Faraday rings; might be a little more difficult to work with, as regards crossover, but still doable. This is what I'll try first.

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                                                                                  This version should have the lowest harmonic distortion in the midrange, if it's similar to the 850467. Note the difference in VC inductive rise.

                                                                                  But I already have two pairs of 850439, one set of these is going to an old friend back east- so her's will be the "baseline", and probably done with the 27TDFC tweeter.
                                                                                  Last edited by theSven; 16 May 2023, 16:21 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                                  the AudioWorx
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                                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                                    • 15284

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Jam_Master_J
                                                                                    Jon,
                                                                                    Would you be offended if I tried to date your daughter only so I could get closer to some of your excellent looking speakers?
                                                                                    You'd have to clear that with her and her current boyfriend, I suspect. He's about two inches taller than I am... and I'm 6'2".

                                                                                    But who knows, you might have a chance- I think she sometimes feels he spends too much time on his motocrossers.
                                                                                    the AudioWorx
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                                                                                    Ardent D

                                                                                    In Development...
                                                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
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                                                                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                                      • 15284

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by cjd
                                                                                      Hmmmm. Nice Active unit! I spent a good part of my day trying to get a grasp on the math. My problem right now is being unsure what unit to use when inserting component values (i.e. are all cap values in F so I have to float the decimal over a few when considering the normal µF or nF values). Little desktop 5.1 project I'm pondering (sub + B3S or B3N) to get my teeth into active crossover stuff (already been doing the amp stuff, but this'll also be my first PCB).

                                                                                      I must be honest, I think half the size on those W-P clones is psychological. The top box isn't exactly small, but the heavy black and the shape makes it ponderous and clunky visually. Sometimes, I'm not sure whether all the years in art school are a benefit or a drawback.

                                                                                      C

                                                                                      Nah, I think the art school stuff is a good deal- it's amazing to me how little eye for design most of my compatriots in this company have- I wind up with the weirdest Marcom projects at times in the past, just because I do have a little eye for design, though it didn't show in this project! That, and my own copies of Quart Express, Adobe Illustrator, Ventura Publisher, etc.

                                                                                      Here's a better pick for seeing the guts of the active unit... don't mind the barrel distortion on the camera, this picture was taken a LONG time ago; I should update this.

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                                                                                      The AD715's are power video buffers (for driving multiple 75 ohm loads) which are used within the feedback loops of OP627s; they allow driving these Jensen JT-11SS balanced output transformers with very low driving impedance, which optimizes the transformer bandwidth. The bandwidth is something awesome for a transformer coupled design- fraction of a Hertz to hundreds of Kilohertz, with a low driving source impedance. (the transformers are actually good to the MHz region on the top end). CMRR is quite good, of course. I'll put up a channel schematic for the concept.

                                                                                      [EDIT] Well, it's a little big to display clearly, so I might as well use the reduced size one from Audiomatica's site. It should get the idea across. If you're curious for details, PM me and I can make a high res PDF. This included a power good detection and relay output muting to protect the speakers and power amplifiers connected. The actual filter implementation is a biquad type, so it's easy to tune the crossover fequency just changing a few resistors.


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                                                                                      I do a lot of PCB layout for my day job, and have a nice proto house in Colorado I use (Advanced Circuits) for PCB's. I'd probably tweak up some of the bypass caps a little more if I built another of these (somewhere around here I have more PCBs).


                                                                                      ~Jon
                                                                                      Last edited by theSven; 16 May 2023, 16:15 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                                      the AudioWorx
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                                                                                      M8ta
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                                                                                      SMJ
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                                                                                      In Development...
                                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • cjd
                                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                        • Dec 2004
                                                                                        • 5568

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        I've considered Advanced Circuits, but Eagle and I haven't learned to get along yet. The ExpressPCB tool is a lot more straight-forward, but less robust overall. I've at least figured out how to extract the layouts into something useful (print to PDF, BIG, run through Freehand for a bit of cleanup and a resize to reality, and I can at least do my own PCB's if I can figure out the best way to drill the suckers).

                                                                                        I've been looking at the OPA134/2134/4134 for this.

                                                                                        The OPA627 I hear is *very* picky about proper bypassing, and CLOSE. As in on the chip pins.

                                                                                        I'm still in over my head at this point though. I could probably put together a basic SK circuit no problem, some of the other circuits (bsc, notch in particular) I haven't quite gotten to the point where I feel I'm doing the math right. And, don't tell my boss, but I'm doing PCB layouts at work too. (actually, they know they have me sitting on my tail doing absolutely nothing.)

                                                                                        C
                                                                                        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

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                                                                                        • capslock
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Dec 2004
                                                                                          • 410

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Jon, did you get my emails with the Dayton and 10 inch PA midrange scans?

                                                                                          Design or asthetic ideals are quite different between the US and Europe, aren't they, no matter whether you look at printed magazines/newspapers, food wrapping, ads on bulletin boards or on TV, cars, clothes, houses, furniture, interior design, eyeglasses...

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