Easy DIY speaker questions for you guys

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  • DarkMatter
    Junior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 9

    Easy DIY speaker questions for you guys

    I'm new around here. I've been reading your posts relating to DIY speakers. Based on those, I think my questions should be cake for you guys. I am using Bassbox 6 Pro to design speakers for my new HT. I've built 3 or 4 speaker systems in the past. The first pair, in 1980 or so using drivers from a surplus store and no knowledge whatever resulted in a crappy end product, no surprise there. The pair of 6" 3-way mains and sub I'm using now was done with the help of the Advanced Speaker Design book and drivers from Radio Shack. The system sounds pretty good although the main cabinets don't provide enough bass to make a low enough transition to the sub for true "nondirectionality" of low freqs. And the sub is muddy and boomy with cabinet resonance (too little bracing and wrong port tune).

    With the advent of Dolby PL IIx too "expand" my music, my new focus is on imaging and openess with low distortion. After much reading and talking with the guys at PE (I live not too far from Dayton) I've decided on mains and center using 2 or 3 5-6 1/2" midbasses and a dome tweeter with 3 sats and a sub based on the 15" Titanic III. A year ago I would have scoffed at 2-way mains but now I'm sold (I think).

    Anyway to my ?'s.

    Can quality midbass drivers (stiff-coned 5-7" woofers) paired with a good tweeter actually provide the range of a 3-way system?

    My vented enclosure design shows a good rolloff with the 3dB drop at about 35 Hz and a flat response to about 500 Hz. But no matter what midbass/woofer I choose, Bassbox shows a sharp (12 dB @ 2kHz !) rise after 500 k. At this high frequency I wouldn't think box design would effect level. And, if I alter the box/port dimensions it indeed shows no real difference. This seems somewhat natural to me since I've always had to adjust my EQ in a V pattern with the dip at 500Hz or 1 kHz to get natural sound out of any system. But, shouldn't I see a flat response closer to the 3-6 kHz upper limit of these drivers? The manufacturer's published graphs show a much flatter response to far above 500 Hz. My lower limit in Bassbox shows roll off and frequency closely matching published graphs. I foresee a x-over point somewhere around 2.5 k so the spike above 500 Hz will remain in the finished system.

    I just can't imagine why Bassbox shows this same result for 6 different approx. 6" drivers ranging from $15 Dayton's to $80 Vifa's.

    Any help is gratefully appreciated.
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15284

    #2
    BassBox is a good tool for developing LF alignments for a driver, but it is NOT an adequate tool for full range speaker design...

    OTOH, if your version of Bass box is accepting inputs regarding the baffle size, it may be trying to model baffle step effects- that is, the transistion from 4 pi space radiation at low frequencies (say, below 200 Hz) to 2 pi radiation (half sphere) where the wavelength makes the baffle effectively the launch plane. For a 10-12" wide enclosure, this will occur around 1 kHz.

    OTOH, I've seen other artifacts in BassBox's modleing of drivers, which could account for what you describe.

    From the "Advanced Speaker Design" book, you should understand that to do a good design for specific set of cabinets, you neeed measurements of the driver performance in those cabinets, from which to design the crossover.

    BTW, we're doing some designs with the new Datyon RS series drivers, which should be published here by around Christmas time, if you're curious. Looking at both the 6" and 7" versions, both MT full range and MTM designed to work with subs.

    Regards,

    Jon
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • ThomasW
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 10934

      #3
      Regarding the 2-way/3-way and TMM questions.

      When possible we prefer 2-ways, that keeps the XO parts count low (a good 3-way has roughly double the parts count of a 2-way) and there are no big inductors in the signal path.

      Personally I think that MTM's are a better choice than TMM.

      If you look at the treads talking about the M8a-MTM, you'll find a proven high performance design using parts from Parts Express. This design has a very sophisticated crossover and is on par with store bought speakers in the $3.5-$5K range.

      IB subwoofer FAQ page


      "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

      Comment

      • DarkMatter
        Junior Member
        • Nov 2004
        • 9

        #4
        Thanks Guys! I have to admit I didn't follow all of what you said JonMarsh. But I modeled a narrow baffle to reduce radiant effects and there is no way that I know of to include rounded baffle edges in Bassbox models. I have since widely varied the box type and dimensions without any real change to that 1 k spike. So, it must be some characteristic of Bassbox itself. But the general rules I know confirms Bassbox's low end models so it seems good for what it's name indicates. I got a mailer from PE on those Dayton Reference Series woofers and I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with. On my own, I really struggle with the theoretical end of it all. I forget most of what I am able to learn project to project. I'm a cabinetmaker by vocation and an AV enthusiast by avocation and I try to combine the two as best I can. But a liberal arts education and sawdust apprenticeship doesn't really prepare anyone for the hard an intricate science of acoustic theory and electronic circuit design.

        I will do an immediate search for the design you referenced ThomasW. I've done net searches for this design without much luck. The most promising one used drivers I couldn't find and didn't list enough spec detail to match to an available driver. Another focused on a compact cabinet and gave up simplicity and range for it.

        Comment

        • DarkMatter
          Junior Member
          • Nov 2004
          • 9

          #5
          I can't find a thread describing the M8a-MTM, only threads discussing them. Can you steer me a little closer?


          BTW, thanks for your time and input guys.


          Edit: Nevermind on that last question. I followed theaudioworx link and found exactly what I'm looking for. There's some good cabinet work there! I'm building a new house (to house my AV gear) so I won't need or have time to actually build anything 'til spring. So, I'll wait to see those Dayton RS plans and compare.

          Comment

          • ThomasW
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 10934

            #6
            People have been interested in building a ported (fullrange) version of the MTM that Tibor built a couple of years ago. For those that don't remember, Tibor's sealed design speaker, here's a pic. To date the 'best' ported version using the Hi-Vi drivers is Jon's M8a-T&A (filedata/fetch?id=929560&d=1677033199)


            Well, this time my brother has asked about speakers. He's having a house built that will have a large family room and kitchen (19 x 50) open space. He's heard my LAs and wants decent speakers. He hasn't had a stereo setup in about ten years and is itching to get his jazz collection out of storage. Considering the size of the
            Last edited by theSven; 21 August 2023, 10:52 Monday. Reason: Update htguide urls

            IB subwoofer FAQ page


            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

            Comment

            • DarkMatter
              Junior Member
              • Nov 2004
              • 9

              #7
              Thanks ThomasW. You beat me to it.

              Comment

              • DarkMatter
                Junior Member
                • Nov 2004
                • 9

                #8
                Good gravy! The X-O's on Tibor's M8a-MTM look complex! Those would seriously test my solder-by-number skills to the max.

                Comment

                • DarkMatter
                  Junior Member
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 9

                  #9
                  Who built the M8a-MK-x extreme on theaudioworx site? That's a serious piece of work!

                  Comment

                  • ThomasW
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 10934

                    #10
                    That's Jon's baby.

                    Last edited by theSven; 21 August 2023, 10:52 Monday. Reason: Update htguide url

                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                    Comment

                    • DarkMatter
                      Junior Member
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 9

                      #11
                      Truly remarkable design and execution. He must be master of the jig to cut those facets.

                      Comment

                      • ThomasW
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 10934

                        #12
                        He must be master of the jig to cut those facets
                        That was his first project using the sliding miter table on a Ryobi BT-3100

                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                        Comment

                        • Paul H
                          Senior Member
                          • Feb 2004
                          • 904

                          #13
                          Originally posted by DarkMatter
                          Good gravy! The X-O's on Tibor's M8a-MTM look complex! Those would seriously test my solder-by-number skills to the max.
                          Let me know if you decide to build these and I'll dig up some schematics for the same x-over that are fairly user-friendly.



                          Thomas - giving up Jon's woodworking secrets? :wink:

                          Paul

                          Comment

                          • Bing Fung
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 6521

                            #14
                            Originally posted by JonMarsh
                            .....BTW, we're doing some designs with the new Datyon RS series drivers, which should be published here by around Christmas time, if you're curious. Looking at both the 6" and 7" versions, both MT full range and MTM designed to work with subs.

                            Regards,

                            Jon

                            That's right, I'm waiting in line with my lawn chair and cooler
                            Bing

                            Comment

                            • Hank
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Jul 2002
                              • 1345

                              #15
                              When possible we prefer 2-ways, that keeps the XO parts count low (a good 3-way has roughly double the parts count of a 2-way) and there are no big inductors in the signal path.
                              That's my motto, but don't tell Jon I posted this, because of his recent xover components that are easier to measure by the pound than by the count

                              Comment

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