New Room Electrical Work

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  • Ash
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 191

    New Room Electrical Work

    Hi guys, your input will be highly appreciated.

    I'm building a new house and have decided to make one of the rooms into an HT room. Since this decision, I had a chat with electrician and decided to take some extra measures to make the room more HT ready (not major measures though).

    What I told him to do was to have one socket (to be used for the amplifier) to have a separate circuit braker, while the rest of the room will be on another cirecuit braker. I also told him to put thicker wires in the walls, 40mm wires, that are supposed to handle a bigger load if necessary.

    Will these measures help the sound at all? and will the thicker wires make a difference or should I just go for standard wires?

    Thanks Ash
  • Hdale85
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Jan 2006
    • 16075

    #2
    Well it could help you run the equipment you want. What amps do you plan on using? What are their power ratings? Sub amps included? Depending on your amp needs you may want to run several outlets that have their own breaker just for amps. Also if your needs are high enough you may want to upgrade your main line. I use an Emotiva XPA-3 right now which easily needs its own circuit. I'm going to had an XPA-5 probably eventually as well and that will need its own circuit too. I plan on running at least 4 circuits with separate 20amp breakers for my HT when I get to that point. Just some food for thought

    Comment

    • Ash
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2004
      • 191

      #3
      Hi Dougie

      Thanks for the reply.

      Well, Im still not sure about the amps, but they will have to sufficeintly power B&W N800 speakers. I didn't put much though in the room and the piping work for the electrical wiring has been completed. Therefore, I have to stick with the 2 circuit breakers in the room. I can change it but it will be a hassle.

      I'm not sure if I will buy monoblocks or a steros amp. If I buy monoblocks (which is possibily), then I know that I will regeret having only one socket with a dedicated breaker. But people tell me that what I did should be enough, regardless of the type of amp.

      Comment

      • Hdale85
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Jan 2006
        • 16075

        #4
        Actually it shouldn't be all that hard as all the wiring still runs down to the breaker box its just a matter of figuring out which goes where and adding a breaker for it. At least it should It probably wouldn't be super expensive to have an electrician come in and do it but its really all going to depend on what you use. I wouldn't go for monoblocks for the whole system (if your doing 5.1 or 7.1) but maybe for your main L/R speakers.

        Comment

        • GregLett
          Senior Member
          • May 2005
          • 753

          #5
          It might not be that simple at all. The other outlets my not all me home-runs to the main panel. Common practice is to daisy chain outlets within the same room.

          The single outlet with a 20A breaker for the amps would be fine even if you buy mono blocs.
          Greg

          Comment

          • Ash
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2004
            • 191

            #6
            I will talk to the electrician again and see how we can arrange additional breakers, I would like to have 1 breaker for each amp (if I go the monoblocks route, which are only to power the mains). But does this make any difference? What benifits will I get by introducing the additional breakers?

            My setup is 5.1, and the rest of the system will be power by an HT receiver until I gradullay upgrade.

            Thanks

            Comment

            • Ash
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2004
              • 191

              #7
              HI greg, thanks fir your input

              I think the electrician mentioned to me that the outlets are chained or somthing, thats why it will be tough to change! He also told me that the single outlet should be able to handle. Not sure if that necessary to go through the hassle and include any more breakers.

              Comment

              • GregLett
                Senior Member
                • May 2005
                • 753

                #8
                Originally posted by Ash
                I will talk to the electrician again and see how we can arrange additional breakers, I would like to have 1 breaker for each amp (if I go the monoblocks route, which are only to power the mains). But does this make any difference? What benifits will I get by introducing the additional breakers?

                My setup is 5.1, and the rest of the system will be power by an HT receiver until I gradullay upgrade.

                Thanks
                Putting each amp on it's own breaker is not necessary, thy just don't draw that much.

                Do you plan on putting the amps close to the each main speaker? If you do then you could out an outlet near where you you will place each amp, but they can still be on the same breaker.
                Greg

                Comment

                • Hdale85
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Jan 2006
                  • 16075

                  #9
                  Some amps can draw that much. Most don't I agree. That's why I asked what amps he plans on using. If your just running 2 amps and a receiver then that should be fine on one breaker. You won't notice any improvement in sound by having them on separate breakers its just a matter of how much current your amp is going to draw.

                  Comment

                  • Ash
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2004
                    • 191

                    #10
                    Thanks a lot for the feedback guys, as suggested, I might add one socket in addition to the individual socket with breaker I mentioned earlier, this seems like a doable solution, thus, the monoblock amps will be on one breaker and the rest of the room on a separate breaker. This way, it seems that current requirements will be divided proportionately.

                    Comment

                    • Ash
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2004
                      • 191

                      #11
                      does anyone know if having thinker electricity wiring provides any benifits or drawbacks

                      Comment

                      • Glen B
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Jul 2004
                        • 1106

                        #12
                        What is the distance between your electrical panel and outlets ? What's important is that the wire is adequately sized for the distance between the two, in order to minimize voltage drop. 12 gauge wire is fine for most runs. Some people (like me) use 10 gauge which others may think is overkill. The drawbacks of larger wire are its harder to install if being pulled through conduit, and wall receptacles will not accommodate wire gauges larger than 10 (which itself can be somewhat problematic, especially if its solid).


                        Comment

                        • Ash
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2004
                          • 191

                          #13
                          Hi Glen,

                          The electrical panel is not very far, its actually right outside the room! I would say, the total length of the electrical wires would be max 15 - 20 meters. I asked the electrician to install thicker wires, he said that he will install 40mm wire (not sure what it is in guage terms), he said that these are the same they use for air conditioners and that I would not need bigger wires. Do you think these are big enough?

                          Thanks for the suggestion

                          Comment

                          • htsteve
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Sep 2004
                            • 1216

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Ash
                            Hi Glen,

                            The electrical panel is not very far, its actually right outside the room! I would say, the total length of the electrical wires would be max 15 - 20 meters. I asked the electrician to install thicker wires, he said that he will install 40mm wire (not sure what it is in guage terms), he said that these are the same they use for air conditioners and that I would not need bigger wires. Do you think these are big enough?

                            Thanks for the suggestion
                            Ash,

                            I recently got done building an HT room in my basement. I ran one 20 amp dedicated circuit into the room. This circuit was for all HT equipment.
                            It is a quad recepticle (4 plugs). Right now I have my power conditioner and my McIntosh amp into two of the four plugs.

                            One other thing to consider is if you plan, either now or in the future, to have a projector in the room. If yes, the outlet(s) for the equipment are typically at the front part of the room but the projector is in the back. This is the case in my room. I was advised to have the projector and other equipment all on the same 20 amp circuit. This posed an issue, how to get power to the projector. I bought an remote power solution from Panamax.
                            It has a power cord (to plug into my UPS, a necessity with a projector) at the front end and a wall plug at the projector end. Works great. It also has the ability to organize your video cables back to the projector, as well as surge and a bit of filtering. A bit pricey ($250), but it works great. You can look up the solution and ask your electrician if he could do something along these lines.

                            There are a couple of other plugs in the room, but they are on a different circuit.

                            At what stage is the building of your house? Frame? Walls? There are things that can be done at each stage of HT room building that will help the overall room performance.


                            Hope this helps.

                            Comment

                            • Glen B
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Jul 2004
                              • 1106

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ash
                              Hi Glen,

                              The electrical panel is not very far, its actually right outside the room! I would say, the total length of the electrical wires would be max 15 - 20 meters. I asked the electrician to install thicker wires, he said that he will install 40mm wire (not sure what it is in guage terms), he said that these are the same they use for air conditioners and that I would not need bigger wires. Do you think these are big enough?

                              Thanks for the suggestion
                              It would he helpful to include your location in your profile. The gauge you quoted does not make sense. 40mm (diameter) is almost 1 5/8 inches. 12 gauge wire is approximately 2.3mm. Wire that's thick enough for air conditioner use is more than good enough for audio.


                              Comment

                              • whoaru99
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2004
                                • 638

                                #16
                                4.0mm diameter would be roughly 6ga.

                                4.0mm^2 is between 12ga and 10ga.

                                FWIW, I have run more than 7kW of pro amplifers (one QSC PLX3402 in stereo 1,100wpc @ 4 ohms and two Crown CE4000s bridged mono each 2,800w @ 4 ohms) from two dedicated 20A circuits. Not claiming I have used the full continuous power of these amps, but none-the-less intense volumes were reached with no tripped breakers, etc.
                                There are some things which are impossible to know, but it is impossible to know which things these are. :scratchhead:

                                ----JAFFE'S PRECEPT

                                Comment

                                • Ash
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Dec 2004
                                  • 191

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by htsteve
                                  Ash,

                                  I recently got done building an HT room in my basement. I ran one 20 amp dedicated circuit into the room. This circuit was for all HT equipment.
                                  It is a quad recepticle (4 plugs). Right now I have my power conditioner and my McIntosh amp into two of the four plugs.

                                  One other thing to consider is if you plan, either now or in the future, to have a projector in the room. If yes, the outlet(s) for the equipment are typically at the front part of the room but the projector is in the back. This is the case in my room. I was advised to have the projector and other equipment all on the same 20 amp circuit. This posed an issue, how to get power to the projector. I bought an remote power solution from Panamax.
                                  It has a power cord (to plug into my UPS, a necessity with a projector) at the front end and a wall plug at the projector end. Works great. It also has the ability to organize your video cables back to the projector, as well as surge and a bit of filtering. A bit pricey ($250), but it works great. You can look up the solution and ask your electrician if he could do something along these lines.

                                  There are a couple of other plugs in the room, but they are on a different circuit.

                                  At what stage is the building of your house? Frame? Walls? There are things that can be done at each stage of HT room building that will help the overall room performance.


                                  Hope this helps.
                                  HI HTSteve,

                                  I have already planned for a socket at the back of the room, its about 2 meters high to accomadate a projector.

                                  The house is actually right before the finishing stage, so I would say thats its at an advanced stage, but changes can still be done.

                                  Thanks for the help

                                  Comment

                                  • Ash
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Dec 2004
                                    • 191

                                    #18
                                    I think that I got a little confused when discussing wire size with the electrician, its probably 4mm and not 40mm, which seems to be more than enough considering all of your inputs.

                                    Comment

                                    • Ash
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Dec 2004
                                      • 191

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by whoaru99
                                      4.0mm diameter would be roughly 6ga.

                                      4.0mm^2 is between 12ga and 10ga.

                                      FWIW, I have run more than 7kW of pro amplifers (one QSC PLX3402 in stereo 1,100wpc @ 4 ohms and two Crown CE4000s bridged mono each 2,800w @ 4 ohms) from two dedicated 20A circuits. Not claiming I have used the full continuous power of these amps, but none-the-less intense volumes were reached with no tripped breakers, etc.
                                      Thanks for your input whoaru, taking your post into consideration, I can conclude that I will not have any problems with the electrical set up I have.

                                      Cheers :T

                                      Comment

                                      • Glen B
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Jul 2004
                                        • 1106

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by whoaru99
                                        FWIW, I have run more than 7kW of pro amplifers (one QSC PLX3402 in stereo 1,100wpc @ 4 ohms and two Crown CE4000s bridged mono each 2,800w @ 4 ohms) from two dedicated 20A circuits. Not claiming I have used the full continuous power of these amps, but none-the-less intense volumes were reached with no tripped breakers, etc.
                                        I concur. In 11 years I spent as a mobile DJ, often at some locations there would be only one or two convenient 15A or 20A outlets available for my rack of amps. I never experienced any performance problems, tripped breakers or blown fuses.


                                        Comment

                                        • htsteve
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Sep 2004
                                          • 1216

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Ash
                                          HI HTSteve,

                                          I have already planned for a socket at the back of the room, its about 2 meters high to accomadate a projector.

                                          The house is actually right before the finishing stage, so I would say thats its at an advanced stage, but changes can still be done.

                                          Thanks for the help

                                          Ash,

                                          I'm glad you have a projector solution. Having a dedicated HT room is quite awesome. What is the size of the room? And what size screen are you planning.

                                          As for ideas on enhancing performance of the room, here are a few good bang for the buck ideas:

                                          If drywall is not up in the room yet:

                                          Insulate. Regular insulation works well to fill in the cavity. However, rock wool or mineral wool works very well (it's much denser, but more expensive). Remember to insulate well around the door opening. The door is the weak point in terms of sound control.

                                          Stud Stabilizer's. simply cut 2X4's into short pieces and attach them between studs. At high volumes, stud may 'twang'. This will help alot.

                                          Solid door into the room.

                                          Consider resilient channel on the studs before drywalling. The channel goes on the studs and the drywall goes on the channel. This decouples the drywall from the stud. This very effectively controls sound, especially the bass notes you feel. The rest of the house will not notice them nearly as much.

                                          If drywall is already up:

                                          Put another layer of drywall on. You might need electrical box extensions, but it shouldn't be a big deal. You might also be able to do resilient channel on top of the existing drywall and then a new set of drywall. A bit more complicated, and more expensive, but it could be something to consider.


                                          I assume you will have carpeting in the room.

                                          What will be your color scheme? Mine is black ceiling, dark grey screen wall and a dark navy blue (navy blue plus about 15% more black) in the side and rear walls. The advise I was given was dark colors and to avoid any colors
                                          that are primarily the traditional red, green or blue. My navy blue is quite dark, so i've had no issues.

                                          In terms of lighting, try to find lighting that points down. You don't want light going up and near the projection beam. Sounds obvious, but it took a little bit of time to find the right lighting.

                                          AV wiring: I ran both an HDMI and component (for backup) to my projector. Something to consider.

                                          ISF Calibration. When you get you projector, consider having it professionally calibrated. Cost is around $300 to $400. Professional equipment is used in an ISF calibration. To locate an ISF person by you, go to www.imagingscience.com. They have a locator to help you. The calibration will most definitely improve your picture as devises are not on standard out of the box.


                                          Hope this helps.

                                          Comment

                                          • Amphiprion
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Apr 2006
                                            • 886

                                            #22
                                            Electrical:

                                            Make SURE you get a whole-house surge arrestor. This is so easy to add in new construction and potentially saves you a LOT of money down the road. It is vastly superior to outlet strip type surge protectors, and it protects everything in your home.

                                            Standard 12ga wire is fine. Two dedicated circuits for a HT should be enough. Beware of ground loops, though. Keep all the audio stuff on one circuit and everything else on the other.

                                            If drywall is not up and sound insulation is important, have them double stud the wall. Put a 2x6 as a footer and put a 2x4 stud every 8" instead of every sixteen. Every 'even' stud will support the front wall, and every 'odd' stud will support the back wall. Insulate the wall with standard insulation. This almost totally decouples one stud wall from the other. You can also add a 2x2 stip to an existing 2x4 footer and do the same thing if the framing is already in.

                                            Consider resilient channel on the studs before drywalling. The channel goes on the studs and the drywall goes on the channel. This decouples the drywall from the stud. This very effectively controls sound, especially the bass notes you feel. The rest of the house will not notice them nearly as much.
                                            Could you elaborate more? I have not heard of this. Thanks!

                                            Comment

                                            • htsteve
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Sep 2004
                                              • 1216

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Amphiprion
                                              Could you elaborate more? I have not heard of this. Thanks!

                                              Mark,

                                              A picture will best describe the resilient channel. I've attached one.

                                              The channel attaches to the studs and then the drywall attaches to the channel. The channels are about a foot and a half apart.


                                              Hope this helps.
                                              Attached Files

                                              Comment

                                              • GregLett
                                                Senior Member
                                                • May 2005
                                                • 753

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Ash
                                                HI greg, thanks fir your input

                                                I think the electrician mentioned to me that the outlets are chained or somthing, thats why it will be tough to change! He also told me that the single outlet should be able to handle. Not sure if that necessary to go through the hassle and include any more breakers.
                                                n/p. I would hold off on adding anything else.
                                                Greg

                                                Comment

                                                • Amphiprion
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Apr 2006
                                                  • 886

                                                  #25
                                                  Wouldn't double studding a wall still be more effective than the resilient channel?

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Ash
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Dec 2004
                                                    • 191

                                                    #26
                                                    htsteve,

                                                    thanks for all the suggestions, very helpful.

                                                    Regarding the wall insulation, in the house I'm building, the walls are made of concrete blocks, so I'm not sure how much insulation can made or needed. However, I will look into a solid door for this room to keep the sound in.

                                                    I'm planning to have thick carpeting in the room, and the colors I was thinking about, includes grey, dark blue or black (I'm afraid that black may look ugly).

                                                    I was planning to connect HDMI only to the projector, did you find any need for the component?

                                                    I will also look into the claberation of the projector.

                                                    Thanks for everything

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Ash
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Dec 2004
                                                      • 191

                                                      #27
                                                      Mark,

                                                      Make SURE you get a whole-house surge arrestor. This is so easy to add in new construction and potentially saves you a LOT of money down the road. It is vastly superior to outlet strip type surge protectors, and it protects everything in your home.
                                                      Good suggestion I will have a talk with the electrician maybe he can help me with this.


                                                      Standard 12ga wire is fine. Two dedicated circuits for a HT should be enough. Beware of ground loops, though. Keep all the audio stuff on one circuit and everything else on the other.
                                                      I will do that, the amps will on one circuit, while the rest of the room will be on the other. It seems that this will do the job.

                                                      As for the wall insulation, considering that the walls are made from concrete blocks, I don't think that much insulation is needed, the only weak point would be the door.

                                                      Thanks for all the input

                                                      Comment

                                                      • htsteve
                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                        • Sep 2004
                                                        • 1216

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Ash
                                                        htsteve,

                                                        thanks for all the suggestions, very helpful.

                                                        Regarding the wall insulation, in the house I'm building, the walls are made of concrete blocks, so I'm not sure how much insulation can made or needed. However, I will look into a solid door for this room to keep the sound in.

                                                        I'm planning to have thick carpeting in the room, and the colors I was thinking about, includes grey, dark blue or black (I'm afraid that black may look ugly).

                                                        I was planning to connect HDMI only to the projector, did you find any need for the component?

                                                        I will also look into the claberation of the projector.

                                                        Thanks for everything
                                                        Ash,

                                                        The main thing with insulation in walls is noise control and it fills in the space between the walls. Empty space can ring and sound hollow. Concrete block should work well. They accomplish the main goals.

                                                        Good on circuits, carpeting, calibration, whole house surge and color choices. I have black on the ceiling only. It looks fine. I have the dark navy on the non screen walls. I used flat paint in the entire room. The only thing I've noticed with the flat pain is that if you touch the surfaces too much, it does leave a scuff mark. But the room is dark, so it really doesn't bother me. Screen wall is dark gray. Overall, the room is dark, even with the lighting turned on (just like in a movie house).

                                                        I don't use the component cables to the projector. I use HDMI. The component cables are simply backup in case the HDMI connections go out for some reason.


                                                        Hope this helps.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • htsteve
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Sep 2004
                                                          • 1216

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Amphiprion
                                                          Wouldn't double studding a wall still be more effective than the resilient channel?
                                                          Since I did both double stud and resilient channel at the same time, I'm not sure which is more effective. However, I did them for different reasons. My HT room is in the corner of the basement. The outside walls were already framed in standard 2x4 construction. I left that in place. The two new walls were done in 2X6 double stud (or staggerred stud) construction. This was done to control sound down to about 200 Hz (according to the research I'd done). Below that is much harder to control. Really low bass travels like water. It finds the weak stop in your room, goes there and gets out.

                                                          Since the HT room is directly beneath my kids bedrooms, I needed to control all the sound, including most of the low bass. I did research on it. Decoupling the drywall form the frame was what I read to be very effective at this. Resilient channel seemed to be the correct way to go. So that is what I did. I also used some special acoustic drywall.

                                                          All together, the insulation, resilient channel and acoustic drywall work together to make a great sounding room inside, but pretty hard to hear outside.

                                                          The proof is in the SPL meter. I can watch a movie at 85-90 DB's in the room and there is at least a 35Db reduction in the kids rooms. My SPL meter only goes down to 50, and it spikes there. I suspect it's lower, because the needle doesn't move. And my family thinks it works great, including my wife. She is amazed at how much she dosn't hear. And the kids can sleep. :T

                                                          The most you tend to hear on the main floor is muffled bass. It's hard for the ear to pick up on it,

                                                          Hope this helps.

                                                          Comment

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