HTPC in the making

[Lex]

Well, I ordered this today,as you may have seen in the cool HTPC case thread.



So, what am I, person without progressive scan, HDTV, going to do with an HTPC? Well, I haven't a clue, lol. But when a geek like me or perhaps you, has a spare Mother board sitting around, he doesn't generally just let it sit in a box. IE, he builds something with it! I considered converting my BMW to run on it, but with my luck with this board so far, I didn't think that to be to prodent. lol.

So Bing, here's Abit's second chance. He gets a new hard drive, a bitchin new case, and a new DVD Rom drive to wear. He has his chance in the spotlight. Time will tell what he can do

Still looking at video cards. IF I can get my Ge-force 3 to work properly in my duelly, then I may opt for a Radeon 8500. The card I am told may yield the best picture for DVD. I just downloadedthe 12.41 drivers to see if that helps.

Add an NIC, hope to be able to video capture, maybe even record to disc from directv. I will need guidance here folks!

Lex

[JonMarsh]

Hey Lex, totally cool!

If I hadn't just sunk $2000 into my Z28 the last month, I'd be springing for one of those, too, just on general principles.

Everyone is going to have some different confusing advice to give you, so I might as well get mine in first so you'll forget it faster.

First, the hardware overlay gamma in the 8500 is broken. At leaast, that's the general confusion, because try as ATI does to upgrade and fix the drivers, they haven't been able to get them to work right.

My advice? Save yourself some serious bucks and get a Radeon 7500. They have excellent DVD playback, 10 bit DAC's, and provide the sweetest picture I've seen so far from a PC.

Now, there may be other options to consider for the future. The so called GeForce 4 MX (which is really a GeForce 3 NV17 Mobile chip in desktop clothing) has the new VPE (visual processing engine) which has a number of tweaks for MPEG decoding. Only one problem... no one has implemented software support for it yet. When that does occur, its peformance may rival a Radeon 7200 or 7500.

Sound cards. You'll need to research that depending on which software player you want to use, the big issue being SPDIF pass through. One of the more reliable boards I've tried across many configurations is the Philips Acoustic Edge; but for "high end", you may want to consider the Audiophile 24/96. The Philips can do full 5.1 decoding on it's own, as can an Extigy.

Anyway, have fun!

-Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Lex]

Thanks for the advice Jon! Well, I am not certain on that vid card number,maybe it wasn't the 8500, maybe the 7500. I will check and confirm that before ordering anything.

Tonight, I tried to get my Asus to cooperate in my A7M266-D dual machine. I had some success. Got kicked out of 3D Mark the first try, after tweaking my 8200 G3, but then the next time, I did make it through the complete test with a score of 2737. I have no idea how that is.

If I can get this thing stablized in the system, then the Radion becomes a viable HTPC option, and I admit, I like the idea of saving big bucks. My original plan was to go G4 for the dual, and move the G3 over to the HTPC.

Does the 7500 have video in?

As to sound, right now, it looks like I will use my Turtle Beach card, that is supposed to be 5.1,though the jury isstill out on that, as I know nothing about PC Audio really. I am trying to build this on a very limited financial outlay initially. Obviously, the case was a rather major item at 439 delivered. I know, I didn't need 2 day delivery, but since they are in CA, would have been next week probably without it.

So, I go tthe case, the Abit mother board, CPU fan, power supply, case, DVD Rom. All I need is an HD,memory,vid card,and maybe a network card since my 3 are all in machines. I suppose I could rob my daughter's machine,since she isn't on the net. But one never knows. Sometimes, I may need to put that system on Lexnet.

Keep those ideas coming! Whatsoftware players, etc....

Dang, guess I will need an IR keyboard, huh? Ideas?

Oh yeah,what OS is best? W98, or W2K? How much memory do I need?

Lex

[Bing Fung]

Nice Lex!

Well certainly you like to jump with hands and feet 8O

I'm not sure of the problem your having with your GF3 and Dual. I have read there is a compatibility problem.

You have the HTPC master on it so i'll just sit back and learn something here.

However I would caution use of the GF4 MX as it has disabled vertex and pixel shaders (which may not be a big deal for a HTPC anyway) for a hot rod PC. Its basically a rebaged GF2 GTS. If your going to get a GF2 anyway (in the GF4 MX), you may want to look at the Visionteck Xtasy Everything. It is based on the GF2 GTS and has all the features of TV tuner, time shift, Program guide...etc.

Have a look

I don't know a lot about this stuff, but Jon will give it the Yah or Nah.




Bing

[JonMarsh]

Lest we flood Lex with too many "helpful" suggestions, maybe Lex should tell us what his priorities and tasks are for this machine- that will dictate ranking the performance issues.

Obviously, the more things you want the system to do fairly well, the more compromised more aspects will be. Unfortunately, there isn't the "perfect" video or sound card for all applications- i.e., DVD playback and gaming.

The standard 7500 doesn't have video in. The AIW cards do, but you might be better off using Dscaler and one of the inexpensive video capture cards it supports.

Prioiritize, prioritize, prioritize.

My machines tend to be specialized on a few tasks, not jack of all trades.

My Audio Test PC runs WIN98, because of software compatibility with CLIOWIN and SoundEasy 3.3; and uses the Cinemaster 4 player, with a Hercules Game Theater. It's not powered up that often, and it's a "secondary" HTPC (well, at my home, it's now the primary, since the primary is at Yvonne's). Video card is Radeon DDR 64 MB.

My "primary" HTPC runs Windows XP. It used to use WIN2K. Video card is also a DDR 64MB Radeon (not 8500), sound board used to be MAudio 24/96; because of driver issues, it's now an Acoustic Edge. Player is ATI 5.0 and Power DVD XP (4) (better on video source stuff)

My "gaming/HTPC" in bedroom runs a GeForce 3, sound via an SB Platinum 5.1, DVD software is Power DVD XP (4). It's still running 98SE, for maximum game compatibility- XP is almost, but not quite there.

I'm nothing if not an equal opportunity try it out kind of guy....

All systems are Athlon based. ('Natch)

My laptop is sort of HTPC capable, it runs Power DVD, and a built in VIA sound chip set, though I'm thinking of getting an Extigy for it.


-Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Lex]

My primary concerns for this machine in order of importance are:

1. TV input accept input from TiVo would be ideal, for recording shows using included software. That way I get both satellite and cable reception for the HTPC.
2. TV output (show recordings)
3. DVD playback.
4. maybe a game or two, but not to likely, since I have the Xbox for that.

Since I don't have progressive scan display capability, except on computer, DVD playback isn't that big an issue yet. Maybe someday though, if I ever upgrade my RPTV, it will become more important.

Right now, I would say backing up my TiVo is as important as anything. You know, pop some shows down there from TiVo to free up space on the small TiVo drive, or straight recording bypassing TiVo.

Minimize cost of vid card, maximize features. Priority one. Setup for great DVD playback down the road. Take care of TV/video input now.

Lex

[Lex]

Does it not look like this will do all I Want to do Or does it lack a card to display back to TV anything except DVD? :?: Confused

"Experience powerful TV, video capture & editing, and 2D/3D graphics performance with the ALL-IN-WONDER® RADEON™ 7500

Overview
Powerful all-in-one 3D, TV and video for your PC
Powered by the RADEON™ 7500 GPU
64MB DDR memory
Stereo TV-tuner
TV-ON-DEMAND™ Time shifting
Integrated Interactive Program Guide1
Easily capture and edit MPEG-2 video into your own creations
Wireless radio-frequency remote control
DVD video playback
Features
GET AWESOME TV FEATURES ON YOUR PC

TV-ON-DEMAND™
Pause live TV or record live broadcasts and watch them later
Get instant replays of favorite programs
Click through the translucent live TV window to access your desktop – no more moving the TV window to get to your work!
Use the integrated Gemstar GUIDE Plus+™ Interactive Program Guide1 to view and search TV listings by category, actor/performer, or date. Schedule and record programs at the click of a mouse - all the benefits of a Personal Video Recorder without the monthly fees
Amazing TV features including:
TV Magazine1 - images and text from TV programs allowing you to read and archive TV programs
Hot Words1 - real-time notification when selected words are detected in programming
Zoom & pan – zoom in on the action on-screen and choose your own close-ups
Intelligent Teletext on your PC2

1Available in North America only. 2Available in Europe only.

EXPERIENCE HOME THEATER WITH DVD AND DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT ON A PC
Industry-leading DVD playback with AC-3 Digital Audio* output to enable Dolby® Digital 5.1 surround sound
ATI’s VIDEO IMMERSION™ technology allows for adaptive de-interlacing for excellent quality motion video and text
*Actual Dolby® 5.1 AC-3 decoding is done by the external AC-3 decoder and is not included.

RADIO-FREQUENCY REMOTE CONTROL
Control the TV, video, DVD and gaming features of the ALL-IN-WONDER® RADEON™ 7500 from another room in the house using ATI’s remote control*
No need to point the remote control at the receiver – connect your PC to your TV and watch DVDs, search channels, or record TV shows from your couch
*Available USB port required

EASILY EDIT VIDEO INTO YOUR OWN CREATIONS
Capture still images and analog video in MPEG-2 format at resolutions up to 720x480 and 30 frames-per-second
Powerful video editing software allows you to add effects, transitions, sounds, and more to video footage
Create your own personal productions to share with family and friends
DUAL DISPLAY TECHNOLOGY
Connect to a TV and a monitor (VGA or DVI) simultaneously
HYDRAVISION™ software enables you to display information on a TV and monitor at the same time
POWERFUL 2D AND 3D PERFORMANCE
Powered by the RADEON™ 7500 GPU and 64MB DDR memory for advanced 3D graphics
Delivers realistic 32-bit color graphics without a decline in PC performance
CHARISMA ENGINE™ and PIXEL TAPESTRY™ technologies allow for phenomenally realistic 3D graphics details
Specifications
System requirements

Requires Intel® Pentium® 4/III/II, Celeron™, AMD K6/Duron™/Athlon®/Athlon® XP or compatible with AGP 2X (3.3V), AGP 4X (1.5V) or AGP 2X/4X universal slot
64MB of system memory
Installation software requires CD-ROM drive
DVD playback requires DVD drive
Sound card supported by Windows® and DirectSound® with available line input
Interactive Program Guide requires Internet connection during listing updates
Remote control receiver requires available USB port
500Mhz minimum processor speed for MPEG-2 video capture

Graphics controller
RADEON™ 7500
Memory configuration
64MB DDR
Operating system support
Windows® 98/98SE
Windows® Me
Windows® 2000
Windows® XP
Display support
One display (VGA or DVI) can be connected and active simultaneously with either a TV or VCR
TV-Tuner Requirements

TV signal from amplified antenna or cable. Versions available for:
NTSC (North America, Japan and Latin America*)
PAL B/G/D/K/I and Secam L/D/K (Europe and International PAL/Secam countries)

Features vary from country to country and depending on the television standard. *Note that Latin American countries using the PAL M and PAL N standards including Argentina and Brazil are supported by the NTSC version.

2D/3D display modes

Resolutions, colors and maximum refresh rates (Hz) in 256, 65K or 16.7M colors"

[Bing Fung]

That looks like it would do everything and more LEx. Actually didn't Jon say to get that one in the first post?




Bing

[Lex]

That's what I thought, but then he contradicted himself:

The standard 7500 doesn't have video in.

Is there a standard, and deluxe, maybe?

So, the 8500 is not a good card, right Jon?

Here's a link talking about it-

http://www.buddhacon.com/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=14

Lex

[Lex]

Yeah, there is an "All in Wonder" radeon 7500, and then just a standard 7500. So, now Jon's comments make sense. I think the All in One is the card for me for this HTPC. Then worry about the bemouth dually later on.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't even need an audio card to output 5.1. Will this card do DTS Jon or just DD? DTS would be nice.

Lex

[JonMarsh]

It should be ablt to do pass through by itself- but only with it's own software and player. Also, ATI has this slightly unsavory habit of underclocking the All In Wonder version of their video cards. I'd check out some reviews of the AIW beore proceeding.

You can get a $25-30 card video capture card and use it with Dscaler (free software) to take conventional video in, de-interlace, scale, and project.

But then you don't have a progressive display, which really removes a lot of the incentive for HTPC in my opinion. The S-output is OK compared to what you're viewing now, but only for composite or S-Video inputs. It's got 1/3 the chroma bandwidth of a component input.

You'll have to carefully optimize the file system and drive to record full NTSC resolution video without dropped frames using an AIW. There's a lot of info at AVS on that topic; far too much to repeat here!

For me, the reall incentive for HTPC has always been progressive displays and high chroma bandwidth with DVD. With Dscaler, you can import your LD signal, upconvert, and watch at high res.

YMMV. Maybe for now you'll want to optimize for using with a "cheap" CRT monitor, such as some of the bargain 19" jobbies. That way, you'll at least have an idea of what you could be getting into.

For reference, I have a formerly top of the line Toshiba DVD player; it's been in my daughter's bedroom for nearly two years. She's happy; so am I.

-Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Lex]

well,I thought the all in wonder was the better 7500, at least it's priced that way Jon.

As for my not having progressive. True, I am well aware of that advantage, but why not experiment around with storing my favorite TV shows now, play with the DVD, and well,be set whenever I do get a progressive display. Someday, I will have one, it's just a matter of when. Since none of my other players are progressive, I see this as a good first move, having the PS capability and giving me some recording options now.

As you well know, after biting off a new RPTV, or projector, the last thing we usually need to do is run out and buy a new player.

Oh, I do have a 19" monitor, a Sony 25 dot pitch. Does have the traditional Sony faint image lines though...

Lex

[Lex]

Review of Radeon 7500 AIW, looks good to me. 100.00 OEM kit, not retail box. How the heck you gonna beat that! Confirming now that the remote comes with it...

http://www.hardwarepub.com/reviews/video/radeon7500aiw/index.shtml

Lex

[Lex]

I got a little miffed at Digital Connection yesterday. Now, had they advertised with us, like I tried to get them to, I might have been more forgiving.

However, as it is, I paid for 2 day shipping so it didn't take 5 days to get it here from the west coast. (you know, that instant gratificationt thing) This was on Monday I think. Yesterday, he calls me up and says, just wanted to inform you that we are waiting on packing supplies to ship your case. I said WHAT? I paid for 2 day shipping, to get it here this week! I said if you guys need packing materials, try going down to a local packaging supplier and picking some up! Further, I said, due to this delay you should upgrade my shipping to next day for free. This was not what was agreed on, and I want my case.

I can understand normal delays, but this delay was preventable. Ticked me off!

Lex

[Lex]

Ordered a 1.33 mhz CPU, Radeon 7500 All in Wonder, 1 256 meg dimm for this system, oh and an 80 gig drive for it.

I may pick up a 10 or 20 for the OS and progs and have the 80 for data only.

Lex