TI study shows severe LCD image degradtion over short time

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  • BleakShore
    Member
    • Oct 2003
    • 59

    TI study shows severe LCD image degradtion over short time

    Hi everyone,

    I was all set on buying either the Sanyo Z1, Studio Experience Matinee 1HD (Z1 clone), or possibly the Panasonic PTL300. From what I hear, these are all excellent LCD projectors.

    Then I came across the following articles on the life expectancy of LCD projectors. According to the study by TI/Rochester Institute of Tech, the LCD projectors' image would degrade to an unacceptable level only after a couple of years! :evil:

    Made me think that even before one has chance to use the full 2000 - 3000 hours of bulb time, the LCD panels will get damaged for a very expensive repair. This put me on hold on purchasing LCD projectors. So, I am looking into DLP guys. Well, InFocus X1 sounds like a very economical choice for me, as I already have a 65" RPTV. BB has them for $899.99 (10% coupon until Nov 17, 2003)

    Anyone experinced the severe image degradation mentioned in the TI study?

    link 1
    link 2
    link 3
  • AndrewM
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2000
    • 446

    #2
    Hmmm a study sponsored by TI says that LCD panels (of which TI doesn't make any of) deteriorate at some HUGE rate compared with DLP (of which TI makes lots of). I dunno, but reading between the lines sure does say a lot.

    I can't say if the panels degrade though, although I've used LCD projectors for computer presentations for years upon years upon years and have never once had to replace one because the picture looked bad, in fact I've never seen much if any degradation, meaning the picture looks just about the same as it did when I bought the unit.

    Andrew

    Comment

    • Andrew Pratt
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 16507

      #3
      Agreed this "study" has been dicussed a lot on the various forums since it came out and the conclusion everyone but the die hard DLP folks are making is that is biased report written to push more people towards DLP technology that Ti makes.

      Besides even if its partly true I for one will very likely be on my 3rd or 4th PJ by the time its ever an issue. Its sort of like saying that AMD chips won't last as long b/c they run hotter....who cares if it makes it to 10 years instead of 20 like an Intel its well past its usefull lifespan anyway :LOL:




      Comment

      • Burke Strickland
        Moderator
        • Sep 2001
        • 3161

        #4
        While the objectivity of TI in this matter is subject to healthy skepticism, according to Bill Cushman, projector reviewer for several publications including Widescreen Review , the SONY LCD projectors from a few years ago, specifically the VPL-W400Q, have had a problem with the blue polarizing panel gradually deteriorating, overlaying a blue haze on part (eventally all) of the image. Until the discoloration takes over most of the frame, the projector is still usable, since the effect isn't even noticable in most scenes. My W400Q took several years for this effect to start showing itself at all. But once you know it is there, you start watching for it and it gets really distracting (kind of like the chroma bug).

        Also, the panel is not a real easy item to replace (lots of connections to the board and other components to remove to get at it) so when it starts to fail you either live with it or send the unit back to Sony for their expensive maintenence (assuming they have a repair depot that can actually do the work -- for a while, their projectors were basically unsupported in North America while they went through a service facility consolidation).

        I do not know if other (later) SONY models have had similar problems or whether competitors' products face the same type of failure. If it is widespread among all LCD units, it sure has been kept hush-hush until now. I'd be interested in seeing the results of a study NOT sponsored or performed by someone with such a vested interest in the results. (Quote: "MCSL was responsible for data collection as well as projector use and maintenance. TI was responsible for evaluation and interpretation of the data.")

        Burke

        What you DON'T say may be held against you...

        Comment

        • vsarathy
          Member
          • Oct 2003
          • 53

          #5
          The results of the test have to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

          (i) First of all, for the test they operated the projectors 24 hours a day and 7 days a week non-stop. This is hardly a scenario that one encounters in a home theater.

          (ii) Secondlt, they used only portable LCDs which, I gather, don't do as good a job of keeping the panels cools as the HT counterparts. And, they allowed ambient temperatures to swing as high as mid-80s. Again, these operating conditions are seldom encounetred in a home theater.

          (iii) The units tested were all placed on very close proximity to each other; as close as 4-5 inches. Thus the heat emiited by each unit was affecting the neighboring units. Again, this never happens in a home theater.

          You can read a more objective analysis of the results at: http://www.projectorcentral.com/lcd_dlp_test.htm

          Comment

          • Chris D
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Dec 2000
            • 16877

            #6
            Interesting stuff. Bleakshore, what 10% coupon is this for Best Buy?




            CHRIS
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            Comment

            • Brandon B
              Super Senior Member
              • Jun 2001
              • 2193

              #7
              The TI study again.

              While containing a degree of truth, it is exaggerated in most respects.

              We have installed many dozens of video projectors, mostly LCDs, and run them 16 hours a day, 365 a year. We see the degradation they describe, to a lesser degree, and almost never sooner than 6000 hours, and sometimes never. TI's study was of compact business PJs under close quarter conditions, despite their claims of proper venitlation and cooling. The study was flawed, and they have still not released info on which models were used.

              Your Z2 will be fine for likely many years. If you use it 5+ hours a day every day, you might run into this in as little as a few years. Sanyos are about the middle of the pack as far as this problem goes judging by units I have heard about in our recent (last 5 years) installations. I have a PLV70 myself and am not concerned.

              Upshot is, disregard this study unless you are literally going to use the Z2 as a television which is on daily for hours.

              BB

              Comment

              • BleakShore
                Member
                • Oct 2003
                • 59

                #8
                Originally posted by Chris Dotur
                Interesting stuff. Bleakshore, what 10% coupon is this for Best Buy?
                Chris,

                My wife got them in mail about a couple of weeks ago. I didn't even know we had them when I bought the projector! There were three coupons one of which said "for computers, digital projectors, etc.". I brought the coupon in after I had paid $999.99 and BB just took off 10% + tax which came out to be about $103 or something. Bonus! Maybe you can ask around and get one from your friends/neighbors. This may be locale dependent though. FYI, I live in northern Virfginia.

                I've since installed the X1 on the ceiling (made a DIY mounting kit) with a blackout cloth for a screen (110"). The image looks pretty darn good. Inside of 5', I can sense the screen door. Inside 1', I can clearly see the screen door. At normal viewing distance, it is not an issue.

                The rendering of DVD and HD signal is pretty good for a 800x600 projector, although I can see pixelation and scan lines when small human faces are projected at a viewing distance of 12'. Non DVD/HD images look great.

                Oh, yeah. No rainbows. Whatsoever. My wife, kids and I could not see it at all. My head hurts though from shaking my head violently trying to see it. I can see it if I look into the lens (very momentarily) - three blocks of RGB.

                Jong

                Comment

                • BleakShore
                  Member
                  • Oct 2003
                  • 59

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Brandon B
                  ... it is exaggerated in most respects.

                  ..Upshot is, disregard this study unless you are literally going to use the Z2 as a television which is on daily for hours.

                  BB
                  Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
                  I can see that I was overly concerned by a rather skewed experiment conducted by a "highly" interested party.

                  I now have the X1 on a 14 day trial period from BB. Having tasted the big screen, I really, really like it Watched Nemo and Hulk last night. *yawn*. Anyways, now that I'm not really going to worry about the LCD issue, I am going to take a look at other choices.

                  How do y'all like the Matinee 1HD? Over X1 if you've seen it as well?

                  Thanks again...

                  Comment

                  • Dean McManis
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • May 2003
                    • 762

                    #10
                    I owned the Sony KLW9000 LCD RPTV which used the same LCD projector panels as the VPL-W400Q and after 3 years and about 7000 hours (still on the original bulb), the picture quality was just as good as the first day. No red problems, no new dead pixels, no blobs, nothing.
                    And interestingly I sold the set for almost exactly what i originally paid for it years earlier.

                    Granted, I bought an XGA DLP front projector with the money, but that was more because the tiny new FPTV was so portable that it made a perfect home theater in-a-bag setup, which combined with Mac iBook made for a really nice mobile HT for traveling and playing my DVD movies anywhere that I could find a power plug and hang a sheet. 8)

                    But from my experience with my LCD RPTV and many other LCD projectors, I question TI's report. ops: :P

                    -Dean.

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15254

                      #11
                      I have to chime in with Dean, Burke, and Vsararthy-

                      I used to own a 400Q, which is a unit notorius in some quarters for heat related issues with polarizer plates in early models. I never had problems with it, and sent it to ThomasW around 1998, who has been using it in his HT without problems since.

                      The study conditions seemed calculated to mimic high stress commercial use (actually, almost no one runs projectors 24/7 commerically that I can think of!), and as such, you might want to realize that even a set of CRT's properly calibrated in an RPTV or FPTV will give out in the same time frame. (re hours).

                      Just look at the difference in construction, sizeand weight between inexpensive portable LCD projectors like the Viewsonic models, and HT projectors like the Sony 1XHT series, or the HS series. This does translate into better panel cooling and room for more optimized air flow. (the 10HT, for example, is a "monster" size wise compared with the portable XGA and SVGA LCD projectors, with a much more sophisticated optical and thermal path.

                      To borrow from Mark Twain, there's liars, damn liars, and statisticians.


                      ~Jon




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                      Comment

                      • George Bellefontaine
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Jan 2001
                        • 7637

                        #12
                        I also own a Sony VPL 400 PJ ( although my NEC HT 1000 gets most of the use now) and after about 6 years the blue haze is just starting to raise its ugly head. I have an extra set of polarisers plates and will one day get around to replacing the discolored blue plate. But the 400 was an early lcd and the first to use the 16:9 lcd panel. I do believe the new lcd models have pretty much overcome the tinting problems, though I have read of a few complaints. The TI article is obviously biased.




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                        • BleakShore
                          Member
                          • Oct 2003
                          • 59

                          #13
                          Originally posted by George Bellefontaine
                          I also own a Sony VPL 400 PJ ( although my NEC HT 1000 gets most of the use now) and after about 6 years the blue haze is just starting to raise its ugly head.
                          How much usage (total bulb time) if I may ask before it started turning blue-ish?

                          Comment

                          • George Bellefontaine
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Jan 2001
                            • 7637

                            #14
                            I had approximately 1300 hours on the first lamp, but the blue didn't become visible until about 400 hours onto the second lamp. It doesn't hrt the picture, but is annoying in dark scenes where one corner of the scene is blue black.




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