New upgrade..AT screen and CIH

[kgveteran]

Well I've poured money into the audio side of my system only to have totally ignored the video side.Enough is enough.

I purchased a bunch of the SMX AT screen material for a 100" wide acoustically transparent screen.My RS WTMW will be shelf mounted behind the screen for a better focused and cleaner front stage.

I'll be getting into a 720p LCD/DLP projector once I get to see the difference between the two.

Then I'll be looking to do the CIH (constant image height).The lens's are running under 500.00 used if i can luck out.I'm dying to watch 2.35:1 without the black bars and getting full use out of the 16:9 panel !

Anyone out there upgrade to an AT screen after having the center under or above the screen ? I find this idea very exciting.

KG

[spidrman]

I built my own AT screen for my HT. It is 138" diagonal (120" wide by 67.5" tall). Unfortunately I was unable to get the SMX material before it was no longer available for a DIY solution. I'm using Phiefer ShearWeave 4500. I'm not doing CIH due to cost right now so it is a normal 16:9 screen. I'm using a Panasonic PT-AX100U and I love it! HD-DVD movies and HD channels from my cable company (especially Discovery HD) look awesome. My speakers aren't yet mounted behind the screen since I'm still working on the theater but they will be by this weekend. I have draped the screen material over the speakers before I built it and I couldn't tell a difference. Of course that is with my really cheap HTIAB speakers and ancient Onkyo receiver as an amp. I've been documenting my build on "another" forum. Here's the link if you want to see how I made my screen:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=850097

Just don't laugh at my "high end" speakers. :B Replacing those with some DIY ones based on all the excellent information found here is a top priority!!

[kgveteran]

I had to bail out on the CIH idea.My throw was too short and so was the amount of money I have to work with.

So it will be a 100" wide by 56" tall.I'm working on the cost of the frame now. I'm hoping I get a bite on my CRT projector and dwin combo. Who know's ?

KG

[Dean McManis]

My first AT screen I bought the material with a sewn black trim and grommets. I built a simple wooden frame with J-hooks and laced it up to keep even tension on the screen.
My current screen is the same 180" diag, 16:9 size, but I now have a Stewart Grayhawk microperf, with it's matching aluminum frame.

I did used to have a 16:9 anamorphic lens that went with my previous 4:3 format FPTVs. But I sold it when I got a native 16:9 projector rather than going with CIH.

One issue with AT screens is that at certain sizes there can be moire patterns that are visible between the projector's pixel gap and the perforated holes of the AT screen.
The anamorphic lens combined with my bigger screen eliminated that effect, but it's also not an issue with smaller screen sizes.

I much prefer audio localization with the three front speakers behind the screen, but I had been concerned about moire issues, sound and brightness attenuation. In the end it was a good trade off, which is why I stuck with an AT screen when I upgraded.

[kgveteran]

From what i've read, There needs to be a tilt of about 15 degrees to avoid the moire effect.I'm sure its 0 degrees to 15 degrees.

I'm just tired of hearing the voices coming from the bottom of the screen.And sound effects are so rare off screen that when they are there the surrounds usually handle it.

I gotta sell off my current system of a NEC CRT projector/Dwin Transcanner/Draper combo to generate some income. Not getting alot of hits at Videogon on this.Oh, well. They say there's a buyer for everything....we'll see


KG

[spidrman]

The tilt works. When I put my screen together I bought the wider material just for that purpose. I have had no issues with moire at all.

[kgveteran]

The tilt works. When I put my screen together I bought the wider material just for that purpose. I have had no issues with moire at all.

So good to hear that :T

[draganm]

I gotta sell off my current system of a NEC CRT projector/Dwin Transcanner/Draper combo to generate some income. Not getting alot of hits at Videogon on this.Oh, well. They say there's a buyer for everything....we'll seeKG

I'll be getting into a 720p LCD/DLP projector once I get to see the difference between the two.
KG

your selling an NEC 6PG Extra for a 720LCD? 8O That's just nuts, talk about a major downgrade. I can't think of a good reason for this, even if the 6PGX has burnt tubes it's still smarter to re-tube it than get a horrible pixelated mess with almost ZERO contrast ratio like a 720LCD.
for the love of God man, lets talk about this before you do something your going to regret. h:

[kgveteran]

your selling an NEC 6PG Extra for a 720LCD? 8O That's just nuts, talk about a major downgrade. I can't think of a good reason for this, even if the 6PGX has burnt tubes it's still smarter to re-tube it than get a horrible pixelated mess with almost ZERO contrast ratio like a 720LCD.
for the love of God man, lets talk about this before you do something your going to regret. h:

It's a done deal.The CRT is out and the digital mess is in. I'm not much of a videophile.I like the sound big and the picture big.Hope I can live with it.We'll see.No one is jumping on it over at Videogon so it'll probably be in the basement for a while...if you are interested

KG

[draganm]

It's a done deal.The CRT is out and the digital mess is in. I'm not much of a videophile.I like the sound big and the picture big.Hope I can live with it.We'll see.No one is jumping on it over at Videogon so it'll probably be in the basement for a while...if you are interested
KG

I only buy broken NEC projectors ( dirt cheap) and only for the color filtered HD145 lenses. I know the 6PGX is a solid performer, same P16 tubes used in the Sony G70 and Barco Cine 8 Onyx.
I saw your add and can offer some advice though. You will never sell it without pics. You HAVE to have pics of the projector and especially the tube faces with the lenses off. To take off the lenses you simply need a long-ish Phillips screwdriver, one screw on each corner of the lens. Also, you need to mention if you have the set-up remote and the other smaller one for daily operation. The market these days is not what it used to be, a minty 6PGX by itself might bring $1K tops and you would be better off selling the Dwin scaler and screen seperately.
You didn't mention what 720 bulb burner you got? I guess it doesn't matter really, it will never beat the 6PGX in anything except shear light output. It's too bad you never got a HDMI/RGB transcoder and hooked up an HD-DVD player, I think you would have been impressed.

[kgveteran]

I run HD though the Dwins pass through and it looks pretty nice.

Still up in the air on bulb burner :P .

The new install will be a 2.35:1 screen about 85" wide.recent change. I'll try the CIH with a Panamorph lens or eqiuivalent.This is all new to me so this could all change in the next ten minutes .

Whats sure for now is the SMX AT screen to get the mains behind the screen.Everything else will work its way out.Thanx for now beating me up (too) much about the CRT switch. I wish i got more into the projector and figured how to realign and replace tubes. I had someone do it for me and the cost drove me nutz.As of now it hangs from my ceiling in a 200lb hush box that is fan cooled.It's a nice setup, but the CIH is very interesting with the "Bulb burners).

KG

[draganm]

well CIH is a really fricking cool thing to have, no doubt. I saw the RS 1 with a motorized 2.35 lense on a screen with motorized masking and it was very impressive but at $18K total cost it dam well better be. The only way to do this with CRT is edge blending 2 projectors and that is just too expensive for now requiring a $12K Diventix processor.
Hopefull, your new CH set-up and really big screen will make up for the PQ problems with the low end digitals.

[kgveteran]

well CIH is a really fricking cool thing to have, no doubt. I saw the RS 1 with a motorized 2.35 lense on a screen with motorized masking and it was very impressive but at $18K total cost it dam well better be. The only way to do this with CRT is edge blending 2 projectors and that is just too expensive for now requiring a $12K Diventix processor.
Hopefull, your new CH set-up and really big screen will make up for the PQ problems with the low end digitals.

With the different throws of lenses and all the other variables, I'm looking at about a 85" wide screen 36" tall. I only sit about 8'-9' from the screen.I think that would fall into the 30 degree's of forward vision that is desired for HT....I think.

I gotta do more research on lens/projector combo's before I even come close to making up my mind.More over, If a lens comes up on the used market, what projector guys are using with that lens will determine alot too...

KG

[spidrman]

I've read all the "seating distance should be 1.5 to 2.0 times the screen's diag measurement" advice. My advice? Hang a sheet on the wall and play with sizes from your seating position. I'm sitting 11 feet from a 138" diag screen and am perfectly happy!! Of course I am "Front row Joe" at a real theater. (but my wife loves it too so it's not just me)

All I'm saying is that all the "rules" you read are based on other peoples "opinion" on what's best. Try it yourself and see what you like. Don't go small now and wish later you had made a bigger screen. Hang a sheet, watch "several" movies and then decide what size works for you. Especially watch some action flicks. The fight scene in the prison yard at the beginning of "Batman Begins" almost makes me dizzy on my screen. :B

[draganm]

With the different throws of lenses and all the other variables, I'm looking at about a 85" wide screen 36" tall. I only sit about 8'-9' from the screen.I think that would fall into the 30 degree's of forward vision that is desired for HT....I think.KG

WHOA, I had no idea you were planning to sit that close. :E I sit that close with my CRT and it's really great but if you sit that close with a 720 chipper you will see Pixels and screen door pretty badly. If your really going o sit that close with a digital I would say a 1080P panel is a must.
There's a used JVC RS1 on the AVS marketplace in North Carolina for $4K, only 10 hours on it. Or, try and find a used Pearl but don't pay more than $2k tops.

[Dean McManis]

As usual, I'm in disagreement with draganm.

With a 85" wide screen and a 720P DLP FPTV, you should NOT be seeing any pixels. With an older LCD FPTV maybe, but not with DLP or D-ILA FPTVs as the pixel gap is relatively minimal. And contrast and black level is actually great with newer models, finally approaching the levels that even CRT fans can accept. Except perhaps die-hard CRT evangelists like draganm of course.

The early guidelines for maximum screen height were based on 480i material like VHS tapes, and early scalers.

The scalers built into the newer digital FPTVs are usually VERY good, and (along with HD material of course) they should provide a clear, detailed picture up close with 1280 X 720p display resolution.
As long as the source media is not crap.

My closest seating is 8' away from a 180" 16:9 screen combined with a 720p DLP FPTV, and the picture looks GREAT with a quality video source. (read no visible pixels). In fact I can discern the holes in the accoustic screen before I see pixel gap with the 720p projector. But you need to get really close for that and also have a bright image like sun or sky on screen. 8)

Keep in mind that unless you had your CRT perfectly calibrated, you most likely were not fully resolving 1280 X 720p resolution with your CRT FPTV, especially edge to edge. And you will most likely see a noticable improvement in picture clarity and sharpness, especially noticing the area outside the center 1/3rd of the screen.

It was that added clarity across the whole screen (along with many other advantages) that moved me to digital projectors 5 years ago.
Don't let draganm scare you off. There are many good reasons why 95% of the market has left CRTs and LPs behind.

Both CRT and LP are great, mature, technologies with decades of development that refined them to become the world's standard, years ago. But they require attention and maintenance on a level that requires a serious commitment to learning and networking with other CRT/LP enthusiasts.
And that effort is simply not necessary with modern digital projection technologies. :T

I do agree though that once you narrow down the projectors that you are interested in, you should see if you can have a dealer who carrys that model show you a regular DVD image zoomed up to the size that you want your screen to be, and sit and watch it at the same distance away that you plan to view it at home.

Ironically, adding an anamorphic lens to a digital FPTV provides a smoother looking image that is very CRT/film-like. A little softer overall (less edgy) but still detailed and clear. You just need to make sure that the projector's internal scaler can properly format the image to keep the correct proportions when using a 1.33:1 anamorphic lens.

[spidrman]

Amen brother! :B

I LOVE my lowly 720P Panasonic PT-AX100U that only cost $1500 brand spanking new. Absolutely no screen door or visible pixels (unless you go stand right next to the screen) at my seating distance in HD content. I'll admit I can see pixels in digital cable channels sometimes in semi static (not moving a lot), bright scenes but those are signal pixels and not pixels from my projector. But I built my theater room for HD and it rocks. (Literally ... last night watching the Eagles farewell tour )

The other side of the coin is that non-digital, non-hd cable channels look like crap at that size but thats just due to the size of my screen. Standard DVDs look pretty good.

[Jack Gilvey]

CIH is one of those things where, once tried, seems so obvious you wondered why you didn't do it long ago (despite watching a zero-contrast, horribly pixelated 720p image. I guess we're so taken with the theatrical drama of the presentation we forget to dissect the image).

[kgveteran]

Thanx guys,
I'm convinced of the switch, it's just which way to go as far as DLP/LCD. AVS is here in town and I may ask them to assist in the projector I will need.

This is very exciting as I have ignored my video aspect of my HT for about 8 years. Alot has happened in the way of QC and picture quality.Please feel free to add more props to the switch ,nothing better than folks who made the switch and are happy with the results.

At this point added posts should be in the DLP vs. LCD campaign.Not a heavy handed one either .

KG

[Dean McManis]

DLP has always had the advantage of better contrast and minimal pixel gap compared to LCD. But LCD and especially LCOS have made great strides in black level, visible pixel gap and contrast over just the last year or two.

It's probably best to try and set a price point of what you want to spend first, and then figure out what is available that matches your needs and preferences best.
The prices of new units keep dropping slowly at the same time as improvements in picture quality come along.
As new chips and optics designs come out, the technologies tend to leapfrog one another right along with their PQ-to-value as new models come out with more features at a given price point.

[draganm]

My closest seating is 8' away from a 180" 16:9 screen combined with a 720p DLP FPTV, and the picture looks GREAT with a quality video source. (read no visible pixels). In fact I can discern the holes in the accoustic screen before I see pixel gap with the 720p projector. But you need to get really close for that and also have a bright image like sun or sky on screen. 8)

you're blowing up a 1280 x 720 rez DLP to 180" and you can't see Pixles? that's amazing, a miracle really considering at that screen size each Pixel is the size of a golf-ball?

[Dean McManis]

Of course you are exaggerating. Each pixel would be roughly 1/8th of an inch wide.
And the important thing actually is not the pixel size, but the pixel gap which you cannot see until you get within 3' of the screen.

As a point of perspective, most commercial DLP theaters use 1280 X 1024 chips with an anamorphic lens, shown on a 40 foot to 60 foot wide screen, viewed from perhaps 20' at the closest. So I actually have a better relative viewing resolution with a 13' wide screen viewed from 8' away than the professional digital theaters.

Of course an old VHS tape is going to look like crap blown up that big, so I will zoom the image to a smaller proportion of the screen with poorer video media (when it cannot be avoided). But with scaled DVDs, and HD-DSS the picture quality is great!
And the immersive experience of viewing the big screen with a clear picture is VERY much like a real theater, but often better.

[kgveteran]

Dean,
Are you doing any HD/BR discs yet.I'm just wondering if I should get a real good 720p or a entry level 1080p. My thought is like buying a scaled down Porche or a souped up Mitsubishi Eclipse with nitro (turbo of course).

[Dean McManis]

Nope. I've held off so far from getting a HD DVD/Blu-Ray player so far for a few reasons.
First off, the selection of discs in either format is still relatively small, and the discs still have early adopter pricing. And of course the whole two-format war bugs me. Plus I've got HD Tivo, so I've got a good selection of HD movies and programming available. And I've got over 1000 regular DVDs which look very good on my HT setup.

For a new projector it's actually a tough time to choose between a nice 720p digital projector and one of the entry level 1080p models. I'd look at both, and if I could find a new or slightly used 1080p model that squeezed into my budget, I'd try to pull that off. But if I had less than $2K to spend, I'd probably go with a 720p model as they do still look great.

[draganm]

As a point of perspective, most commercial DLP theaters use 1280 X 1024 chips with an anamorphic lens, shown on a 40 foot to 60 foot wide screen, viewed from perhaps 20' at the closest So I actually have a better relative viewing resolution with a 13' wide screen viewed from 8' away than the professional digital theaters. ..

well I don' think it's possible to set the bar any lower than a commercial DLP theatre, glad to hear your set-up is better than that.

I'm just wondering if I should get a real good 720p or a entry level 1080p. My thought is like buying a scaled down Porche or a souped up Mitsubishi Eclipse with nitro (turbo of course).

there is really nothing to wonder about here. A 720P digital will be a downgrade for you in every way except shear light output, period, end of story. If you really want to upgrade, don't aim lower than a Sony Pearl. It will be much brighter,much sharper, and have much improved ANSI contrast for better depth of field on bright scenes. You will be giving up a few qualities I won't go over again but at least you will be gaining some good things. Trust me I have seen the "latest" 720P DLP's and they are still very low quality. I have also seen the Pearl and RS1, one was OK and the other fantastic . With a 1080-LCOS machine only $1.5K more than your palnning to spend now you would be doing yourself a major disfavor to skimp.

[Dean McManis]

I definitely don't see a new 720P DLP FPTV as a downgrade from a CRT projector, but it's a predictable response from you. :W

How you define "low quality" is amusing to me. 99% of viewers would likely disagree with you and say that the picture quality at a digital DLP theater or DLP 720p HT projector is fantastic, especially with a HD source.

1080p will definitely look better with HD material, but KG has to determine if the improvement is worth the added cost relative to how much he is planning to spend.

[kgveteran]

I definitely don't see a new 720P DLP FPTV as a downgrade from a CRT projector, but it's a predictable response from you. :W

How you define "low quality" is amusing to me. 99% of viewers would likely disagree with you and say that the picture quality at a digital DLP theater or DLP 720p HT projector is fantastic, especially with a HD source.

1080p will definitely look better with HD material, but KG has to determine if the improvement is worth the added cost relative to how much he is planning to spend.

Well I got a price from CAVX, and it looks good (for the Aussiemorphic lens).Looks like I'm building backwards.I bought the screen material,now the lens may be a go in a few days.I guess I better start to look at projectors now.Over at AVS ther is a list of projectors in the sticky. I'll start with those as my neighbor has the Optoma.This is all happening very fast and my projector has yet to get a hit.I'll have to market it a little different.Didn't plan on getting that much anyway.

Dragonm,
At this point your CRT vs. Digital has gotten a bit old.At this point I'm making the change and appriciate your input and point of view.Lets move on.I hate to be a "Stick in the mud" ,Thanx

KG

[Chris D]

An RS-1 for $4k, huh? Hmmmm.... interesting.

[draganm]

Dragonm,
At this point your CRT vs. Digital has gotten a bit old.At this point I'm making the change and appriciate your input and point of view.Lets move on.I hate to be a "Stick in the mud" ,Thanx KG

try reading my last post again, it dealt strictly with 720P DLP vs. 1080LCD and why one is a downgrade and the other an upgrade in a number of ways. If your really set on a 720 DLP unit then I have nothing further to add. You and Dean can talk about how great it is without any further interruption from me, enjoy. :T

[Spanky Ham]

I personally don't like AT screens, because I can see the material. I prefer a nice smooth screen. With a scope screen you should have enough room to put the speakers underneath the screen. I think Alan Gouger did a test and people couldn't tell a difference between under the screen and behind the screen.

While I won't get to far into the debate between you and Draganm, he makes a point. If you don't care about video or don't want to spend the money on a 1080p pj, then get a 4805. The only 720 digitals I would give a look to are the light canons like the Panny or the Canons.

[draganm]

I personally don't like AT screens, because I can see the material. I prefer a nice smooth screen. With a scope screen you should have enough room to put the speakers underneath the screen. I think Alan Gouger did a test and people couldn't tell a difference between under the screen and behind the screen.

I repeated this test at the local retirement home. I asked the audience to take out their hearing aids and they could STILL tell the difference. :B There is no way on this Earth you can stick speakers behind a screen, of any type, and not affect the sound quality. IT would defy the laws of physics not to mention offend Audiophile's. Heck, even with little plastic Bose cubes they would still sound a little less horrible out in the open. :lol:

[Dean McManis]

Well I've been enjoying AT screens for several years now. When I got my Stewart microperf screen it did come with a small box to compensate for the sound changes due to the screen. But I liked the crispness and sound detail without adding the box.
Admittedly I have Carver ribbon/woofer hybrid speakers, bi-amped, so they are normally a bit bright and so the slight attenuation of the audio is not missed by me for music or movies.

And with a really big screen, there is no comparison from having the sound come from the middle center and middle sides of the screen as opposed to underneath, above, or from each side of the screen.

The visibility of the accoustic perforations vary quite a bit between different screen manufacturers.
As I mentioned, on bright scenes I can barely make out the perforations from about 6 feet away or closer, and you would have to have far better vision than I have to see them from any distance over 8' away. 8O

And of course there is a dramatic difference between an older $700, 480p projector like the 4805, and the latest crop of quality 720p projectors.

Even on the very inexpensive side of 720p DLP FPTVs you can get the Mitsubishi HC1500 for under $950, or the Mitsubishi HD1000U for $850.
Or the Optima HD70 for under $750 (with rebate). Or jump up to the mid-market, $1300 Panasonic PT-AX100U or the $1400 Sanyo PLV-Z5 with better brightness and contrast.

And if your HT budget supports it you would definitely enjoy one of the new 1080p models like the Optoma HD80, whose price just dropped under $2700. :T

[kgveteran]

I was reading about the Optoma HD80. I had read of some reliability issues though.Any thoughts to this.

To get into a 1080p for that cost would be great.I'll have to find some owners who can share their comments.

KG

[kgveteran]

Well, the project is done.I went with an Optoma HD79 720p PJ. The lens is an Aussiemorphic by CAVX. The screen is 100"x42" (Scope 2.35:1).I picked up an Oppo 971 DVD player and a Scientific Atlantic 3250 HD cable box.Both have DVI outputs.My Outlaw Audio 990 switches DVI so that came in handy as i only have two sources.

The screen is very wide for the room and movies are very dramatic.Having the audio so in sync with the video by placing the mains behind the screen was the biggest improvement.

Anyone thinking of upgrading to a CIH with an AT screen should do so.......


KG

[Dean McManis]

Thanks for updating us KG!

Congrats on getting the whole HT together. :T

I've been just using my 720p projectors straight, but when I finish building my house I'm going to pull my Panamorph lens out of mothballs and install it into the new HT.

Since I already bought my screen a while ago I'm not going to be changing to CIH, as my approach was always 16:9 with top/bottom and side masks.
But having a constant height screen has always been a cool idea to me, being like a real movie theater, especially if the bulk of your movies are newer 2.35:1 format.

Enjoy your HT, and if you get the chance post some pics for us to admire. 8)

[George Bellefontaine]

Sounds good, KG. Like Dean, I use a 4 way masking system on my 16:9 screen. I am at 92" wide and don't have much room left, otherwise I would go the 2:35 anamorphic lens route since I now own a PJ that will handle that.