1080p Front Projectors

[Chris D]

Well, keeping up with the times, there's several 1080p front projectors out there, and no longer just from the "exotic" manufacturers, but now the mainstream too. Prices coming way down.

In particular, I notice that the Panasonic PT-AE1000 is out, getting great reviews, $6k retail, $3999 street price.

Getting closer to where I'd consider one!

[Kevin D]

Any reviews on the Mitsu that should be shipping this month?

Kevin D.

[crackyflipside]

OH SNAP

I was under the impression that the panny was $6k street price 8O

What are the street prices of other 1080p pj's (the affordable ones :T )

[Chris D]

Yeah, I usually don't post links for these, but this isn't another forum or actual seller. New 1080p projector shootout including the Mitsu you refer to. The other PJ's streeted at $4,500, $4,800, and $6,800.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/1080p_shootout.htm

[JonMarsh]

There's a new JVC on the way that should give these guys some good competition; price point is reputed to be just over $6K.

[crackyflipside]

This is great news!

Thanks for the link, too.

[Dean McManis]

It's not certain about the street prices for all of the models, but the best price that I've seen so far for the Sony "Pearl" VPL-VW50 is an amazing $3350, and an even more amazing $2800 for the Panasonic PT-AE1000U!
The Mitsubishi HC5000 has gotten some of the best reviews from this new batch of affordable 1080P projectors, at around $4K street price.
Both the Optoma HD81 and Sharp XV-Z20000 are harder to justify with prices over $6,000.

Still, it was not more than a year ago when the top 720p projectors were between $6K and $12K, so this new batch of low priced 1080p native projectors is poised to really shake things up. Especially with their quality scalers and very high contrast capabilities.

The only shortcoming that I've seen so far is that most all of them output 1100 lumens or less, which is compounded by the fact that when you have to support a larger screen from farther back the nature of the optics looses even more light.
Plus some units have limitations in lens adjustment, so you need to make sure that the 1080p projector that you might be looking at is a good match for your room size and screen size.

Personally I'm willing to wait a little longer to upgrade as I'm looking for more like 2000 lumens, and hopefully an LED light source, at a >$2500 price. It sounds wishful, but I'm guessing that we will see them before this time next year.

Still, the current prices and capabilities are VERY tempting even today! :T

[Chris D]

Whoa, you found the Panny AE1000 for $2800?

[Dean McManis]

So far that's the best price that I've seen, but it's not confirmed as some internet businesses don't actually have units in stock. I too was very surprised at the low online prices for the AE1000 and VPL-VW50.

[crackyflipside]

So far that's the best price that I've seen, but it's not confirmed as some internet businesses don't actually have units in stock. I too was very surprised at the low online prices for the AE1000 and VPL-VW50.

Was that price from any major online stores or just those ....Flea-bay vendors ops:

[Azeke]

I was negotiating with a dealer on the Sony VPL-VW50, $3200.00, for my father-in-law. I couldn't believe that price, I asked him to hold it and a mount for me (while I talked to my father-in-law). I told my father-in-law, that this is a great deal, I will mount and calibrate everything for you. He thought about and said that's okay, so I called the dealer back and explained that he had changed his mind. The dealer asked why was the price too high, I began to laugh and thought to myself, boy I wish I could afford it, I would buy it. He probably would have gone down to $3000.00 if I had pressed hard enough, oh well.

This was a reputable dealer btw, just in case you had other ideas .

Peace and blessings,

Azeke

[Hdale85]

I think its amazing that these 1080p front projectors are cheaper then a lot of decent sized 1080p rear projections. Honestly I never would have thought them to be priced this low. Production costs of projectors must have fallen significantly. Or they are taking a smaller profit margin to try and boost sales?

[Dean McManis]

I just did a quick Google search on prices and saw several quoted prices at or close to the numbers that I posted. It's no guarantee, but it's a pretty good indication that they can be found somewhere near those prices.

I agree that it's surprising to see the 1080P projectors at or lower priced than comparable RPTVs as well as LCD and plasma displays, but I think that production volumes are going up for FPTVs, and therefore prices are dropping.
Effectively, a front projector is simpler and should be less expensive to build than a RPTV, so once the production numbers climb, it makes sense that the prices would fall.

I'm having non-HT friends that would have only bought a tube TV before asking me about front projectors now, which is a clear sign to me that they are going more mainstream.

[aud19]

I think its amazing that these 1080p front projectors are cheaper then a lot of decent sized 1080p rear projections. Honestly I never would have thought them to be priced this low. Production costs of projectors must have fallen significantly. Or they are taking a smaller profit margin to try and boost sales?

I think it's also a case of more people buying them, they get produced in larger volumes...yadda, yadda.

I can't wait to see what these 1080p units do to 720p unit pricing as well! 8O :P

[Brandon B]

There's a new JVC on the way that should give these guys some good competition; price point is reputed to be just over $6K.

And of the bunch, it has the highest (non-dynamic iris) native contrast. 10,000:1 onff, and pretty respectable ANSI as well (which I don't remember, so don't ask me ).

BB

[Evil Twin]

well, they're saying that it's actually typically 15000:1 ON/OFF CR, which is pretty stupendous without an IRIS (I think IRIS's are cheating), but ANSI contrast is good, but not a number that will impress the ignorant (~350:1). Most of that will be light dispersal in the optics, I expect.

IN a lot of ways, the DLA-RS1 appears to be an HD10K at a much kinder price point and somehow with few compromises in real world performance (even has a constant aperture lens with zoom). Sounds like a nice level of adjustability, with four gamma memories, switchable SD/HD color matrix, etc. As they say, "The Empire Strikes Back".

[Brandon B]

Yeah, just finished catching up on my AVS reading.

I am now pretty certain I WILL be buying one of these next year.

BB

[Chris D]

One of "these" what? Specifically the JVC?

[Brandon B]

Oh yeah. It will go perectly with my 120" highpower.

Its also got real flexibility. Huge zoom range, major lens offset up and down, left and right. You can ceiling mount it right side up!

BB

[crackyflipside]

I haven't heard about the JVC but I am eyeing the new mitsubishi PJ that got excellent points in the ProjectorCentral review.

[Brandon B]

The mitsubishi is a nice machine, and half to 2/3 the cost of the JVC, but also half to 2/3 as bright (no good for me) and a lot weaker on contrast, even with its DI.

BB

[Dean McManis]

The mitsubishi is a nice machine, and half to 2/3 the cost of the JVC, but also half to 2/3 as bright (no good for me) and a lot weaker on contrast, even with its DI.

I'm not sure what you are referring to.
The Mitsubishi is rated at 1000 Lumens, and the new JVC unit is rated at 800 lumens, with the previous 10K JVC rated at 600 lumens.

There are real world light losses, especially when zooming out for a larger screen, but these issues are relative.

And personally even though these super high contrast ratings are cool, the lower 1500:1 contrast projectors still look awesome, so I'm not desperate to see what 15K-20K:1 contrast brings. At least to me, price is a far bigger consideration than better specs alone.

But having a big screen I probably will wait until someone comes out with a sub-$3K (street price) 2000 lumens 1080p projector. And I do expect that the contrast and black levels are very good as well, along with low fan noise, and good scaling. :T

[draganm]

And personally even though these super high contrast ratings are cool, the lower 1500:1 contrast projectors still look awesome, so I'm not desperate to see what 15K-20K:1 contrast brings. At least to me, price is a far bigger consideration than better specs alone.

sorry but 1500 :1 CR is not awesome, it's not even acceptable. :gah: 15K:1 is still not great but it might be a number I could live with, haven't seen one yet? the days of crappy little bulb machines with almost no CR at all are hopefully behind us.

[Dean McManis]

That's a pretty funny perspective that 1500:1 contrast is not acceptable.
And it's a view unique to CRT fans only. You have GOT to be sweating the final fall of CRTs, as the last area of claimed superiority (high contrast and superior black levels) are now being attained by digital projectors.

My mind goes back to people who still clung to laserdiscs, talking about unacceptable digital artifacts of DVDs as being a valid reason to stick to the tried and true laserdisc technology.

[draganm]

That's a pretty funny perspective that 1500:1 contrast is not acceptable. And it's a view unique to CRT fans only. You have GOT to be sweating the final fall of CRTs, as the last area of claimed superiority (high contrast and superior black levels) are now being attained by digital projectors.

well ever year I wonder "is this it", but then the new kid on the block poops his pants, HD2+ DLP, Qualia, Ruby etc. : So no i'm not worried, actually news from florida has me more excited than ever about CRT. I had you in mind when I posted a couple of days ago , check out the "new CRT resolves 4 million Pixels" thread

My mind goes back to people who still clung to Laserdiscs, talking about unacceptable digital artifacts of DVDs as being a valid reason to stick to the tried and true laserdisc technology.

Laserdisc was higher quality in many regards, especially audio. Too expensive and cumbersom though for something that couldn't do progressive scan. CRT is more like vinyl records, and few people would say that Red book CD is better than a clean record on a nice turn-table. :W

[Dean McManis]

See the big difference is that your unique perspective (a diehard CRT fan) represents far less than 1% of the market, as do laserdisc owners (I still have a player and 300 discs), and record player owners. So even though you have quickly written off HD2+ DLP, Qualia, Ruby, and Pearl projectors, the rest of the HT world is totally enjoying these excellent technologies as a vast improvement over what came before in consumer electronics displays.

Records are still out there in small numbers, just as some people still ride and enjoy horses to get around, and some people still use typewriters to write letters, but the evolution of technology moves ahead regardless of how much a few people appreciate the finer points of the outgoing technologies.

A working 4K CRT projector is a great invention, but unless it costs under $10K, and puts out over 2000 lumens, and weighs under 20lbs, and runs nearly silently, and never requires calibration or convergence, it's not going to slow down the pace of digital projection dominance in the HT and business markets.

[George Bellefontaine]

Wow, this thread has some stimulating conversation going on. For what it's worth, I pretty much agree with the comments Dean has made .

[Brandon B]

I'm not sure what you are referring to.
The Mitsubishi is rated at 1000 Lumens, and the new JVC unit is rated at 800 lumens, with the previous 10K JVC rated at 600 lumens.

Going by the reviews that have come in on the Mitsubishi, where calibrated it is coming in at 450-600, and the fact that JVC's last few offerings have come in at equaling their spec'ed brightness after calibration.

The HC5000 is rated at 1000 ANSI lumens of brightness. In its brightest operating mode we measured our test unit at 918 lumens with lens at wide angle setting, and 694 lumens at maximum telephoto. This is much closer to full spec than we find on most projectors. At this level of lumen output, color is not optimized and it is too bright for most dark theater use. However, you can certainly view sporting events and other video material in ambient light if you are not too picky about color precision.

Once color balance is optimized, lumen output is reduced. In standard lamp mode we measured 532 lumens with the lens at wide angle, and low lamp mode dropped the lumen readings to 410. These readings should each be reduced another 24% if you shift the zoom to maximum telephoto. But given the unit's ample black level and contrast, this is enough light to fill a 120" screen.

http://projectorcentral.com/mitsubishi_hc5000.htm

THe HD10K and the HD2K before that both met the brightness claims they made in real world use, so I am pretty confident they aren't jazzing the specs up this time around either.

I agree older projectors are still nice, I am still using my PLV70, which at best is getting something like 700:1, but is at a eye-popping 1800or so lumens after calibration with a new bulb, although I'd guess it's somewhere around 1200 by now.

I think we're quite nearly there on the scaling, all these new machines have Reon, Realta and Gennum chips that pretty well thrash any scalers more than a couple of years old. On the quiet fans, the Sony, Mits and JVC are all reasonably quiet, but to get that 2000 lumens you (and I) want, somethings gotta give. That will probably have to wait for the end of the arc lamp era, be it LED or laser illumination.

BB

[Brandon B]

Dragan, how about a little less thread farting on the digitals? You don't see us doing it to the CRT threads. There are plenty of fans here of CRTs (Jon for instance) and we all got along pretty well before you jumped into the topic with both feet.

BB

[draganm]

we all got along pretty well before you jumped into the topic with both feet.
BB

so everyone was playing nicely until I came along and ruined all the fun? :boohoo: I wasn't really interested in the thread until Dean said 1500:1 CR was "awesome", He bought up CRT, not me. Anyway, the only one crying is you.

[JonMarsh]

Well, being the diplomatic gent that I occasionally am when away from work, when it came to 1080P front projectors, I mentioned the interesting (for digital) JVC, which seems to have done a lot of things right for that kind of technology.

OTOH, I understand where draganm is coming from; I just don't feel the need to "crow" about my 1080P projector, an NEC PG10. And yeah, it does have a bit more than 1500:1 on/off CR, though like most CRT's, the ANSI contrast isn't anything to write home about either. One of the reasons I really like the NEC is the quality of the color primaries and the overall achievable image quality and depth. But to be fair, it's not like you can go out to your local HT emporium and buy one for $4,000 (what I paid for mine with 500 hours on the clock), and the original new price will turn most folks like me of modest means white as a sheet (over $25K).

~Jon

[draganm]

The new projector is called the DLA-HD1 and it looks to be the first big breakthrough in pixel technology since the invention of the 3 chip PJ. 15K:1 CR with NO auto Iris is pretty amazing. Oddly enough, it's 700 lumens puts it in the same light output as an 8"/9" CRT. I bet one these puppies mated to an HD-A2 HD-DVD player migth even make me happy. 8)

http://www.screenhead.com/reviews/jvc-dlahd1-hd-projector.html

More importantly, it's from toshiba which is a company that garners a little more trust and respect than sony. I will predict that once this hits the market at $6K the Sony Ruby and Pearl will both be headed to the same graveyard they buried the Qualia in. :lol:

[Brandon B]

Not crying, it was a polite request. Lighten up.

You have a habit of coming into a lot of threads in this area and knocking digitals, when no one except maybe Dean is bagging on the CRT's. If you don't see it that way fine. We'll try it your way.

BB

[Brandon B]

More importantly, it's from toshiba which is a company that garners a little more trust and respect than sony.

It's a JVC.

BB

[draganm]

no it's a Joshiba : ) , Peace

[wildfire99]

Panny AE1000 = $4k unless you buy from a shady New York camera vendor.
Sony VW50 = a touch under $3.9k from reputable vendors

The hotness is importing an Epson TW1000 for just about $3000.

[Dean McManis]

I'm not certain why it's a safer purchase to buy a projector at a discounted price from an internet vendor as opposed to having it imported from Japan?
Either one would still likely be covered by the manufacturer directly if something went wrong.
Do you actually know that the N.Y. vendor is shady?
I'd certainly reserach them thoroughly if I were buying from them, but I'd do that from any online vendor.

I will agree with you that the Epson TW1000 looks promising for around $3K, especially with 1200 lumens, high contrast, and quiet operation.

And I wasn't bagging on CRT projectors. It's just that I've owned several of them including a high end model with 9" CRTs, and even though their picture quality can look great, they are far from perfect. And 720p digital projectors with 1500:1 contrst have nothing to fear in relative picture quality from the average CRT projector, except to someone carrying a torch for CRTs.

I just retired two more CRTs today from my HT/office. My venerable JVC 27" TV and 24" Sony monitor both got replaced by a 37" LCD display, with a "paltry" 1600:1 contrast and 1360 X 768 resolution, I couldn't be happier. Both CRT displays have served me well, but the combination of great picture quality, size, HDMI connections and price tempted me enough to buy it.

I actually do like CRTs, as they are an established standard, and a mature technology. But there are some areas in which digital displays are better for some of us today.

[draganm]

And I wasn't bagging on CRT projectors. It's just that I've owned several of them including a high end model with 9" CRTs, and even though their picture quality can look great, they are far from perfect.

fair enough, i'm not bagging either and no technology is perfect. Everyone is entitled to their favorite one and it's nice we can play together. In regards to the Pearl, I have read a lot about convergnce problems (aka panel misalignment) on the Ruby. Never had a chance to really see it in person but A Ruby owner posted a pic on another forum in a thread talking about 1080P resolution ability of LCOS vs. CRT. I was surprised at how bad it really is, Hopefully JVC doesn't allow these kinds of sloppy QC problems on their new baby.

[aud19]

Either one would still likely be covered by the manufacturer directly if something went wrong.

Generally, if products are not bought from authorized retailers, they don't have to and most often don't cover them.

[Brandon B]

On the JVC the 3 spearate colors of the image can be adjusted in one pixel increments, so misconvergence can be user correctd to less than 1 pixel.

BB

[draganm]

On the JVC the 3 spearate colors of the image can be adjusted in one pixel increments, so misconvergence can be user correctd to less than 1 pixel.

BB

uh-oh, the gap narrows even a little more. I didn't know they did this, JVC is obviosuly on the ball more than Sony. Or maybe they simply waited and learned from the Ruby's mistakes? It's obviously a necessary (good) feature but it makes me chuckle a little bit. 3 years ago the best bulb-machine was an HD2+ DLP. Now, they have made leaps and bounds past those performance parameters by emulating CRT, 3 RGB light sources and now adjustable convergence. Anyone want to guess how to they're getting 15K:1 native CR?
I'm going to venture it's a 4th chip that deflects the converged image (light) from all 3 panels. Hmmm, sounds a lot like the 2nd G2 gate in a projection tube. They just need to make it emit some X-rays and we'll be right back to where we started :B

[Brandon B]

I believe the DILA panels are slightly hgher than 1920x1080 resolution and the JVC electronically shifts the image on the panels to shift it. But I do know there is definitely no 4th panel in there.

Their very high contrast comes from a new type of wire grid polarizer developed in the last couple of years.

BB