The Best Way to Go in the $10K Range?

[JKalman]

I'm planning on buying a projector in the next year to yeah and a half. I was originally considering the Ruby, but am curious if it is still the best I can get for the money, or if competition will be around in the next year to year and a half.

My requirements:

1080p w/ more than one 1080p input
1920 x 1080 resolution (true 1080p resolution)
2 component inputs

I am not sure what is out there or what will be released in the next year or so. If anyone knows any of the new projectors at a low price point that will be meeting these requirements, please let me know so I can do research on them. Thanks!

[aud19]

Sony's SXRD "Ruby" projector. Period. DLP's are coming but are either more expensive (3chip...and so far only 720p as far as I know) or are single chip and just starting to be 1080p.

If you need more inputs/scaling etc you should be able to get the Sony PJ and a decent scaler for around $10k +/-

[JKalman]

Sony's SXRD "Ruby" projector. Period. DLP's are coming but are either more expensive (3chip...and so far only 720p as far as I know) or are single chip and just starting to be 1080p.

If you need more inputs/scaling etc you should be able to get the Sony PJ and a decent scaler for around $10k +/-

Cool, thanks. I wasn't sure, but I figured it was still the best deal around for 1080p projection because I haven't seen any threads anywhere comparing it to anything else yet.

[draganm]

Hopefully in a year they have all the issues with the Ruby straightened out. The biggest one by far seems to be bulb-life, here's some preliminary data although I can't personally vouch for it's accuracy. Maybe do a search on google for "Ruby bulb life" and see if you can corraborate this?

0 hours - 164 lux - 0% brightness loss
30 hours - 137 lux - 16.46% brightness loss
50 hours - 127 lux - 22.56% brightness loss
70 hours - 127 lux - 22.56% brightness loss (this is not a typo)
*87 hours - 120 lux - 26.83% brightness loss - DVI input
*87 hours - 107 lux - unknown brightness loss - HDMI input
**97 hours - 102 lux - 37.80% brightness loss
150 hours - 91 lux - 44.51% brightness loss

Also, got an interesting review from someone I trust although he's admittedly a CRT guy, so naturaly very picky and of course biased just like any human being but I hope it's still helpful to you. It certainly appears that Ruby has broken new ground in digital projection.

Sony VPL-VW100 ("Ruby")

OK, so I went down to DarinP's place on Weds, and upon entering his house it looks like he's set up for digitals more or less the way I am for CRTs.
Screens are everywhere.. There's a 128" wide in the living room, and a 10' wide Da Lite 2.8 gain, 2.35:1 ratio in the screening room along with a second 8' wide on an adjacent wall in the same screening room for smaller screen viewing. I'll stick with the screen that I saw the Ruby on. It was a 2.5 gain screen designed for digital use.

Now, keep in mind that this was a very sunny day, and I went from my car to his HT room within about 2 minutes. Now let me describe the room: It was COMPLETELY black. Black carpeting (covered with black velvet?), black ceiling, black velvet walls, even velvet on the sides of his speakers so the shiny finish wouldn't reflect light. This literally was a black hole with no reflections whatsoever. WAF: very low.

Now, since my eyes weren't used to the dark, Darin guided me to a chair dead center of the screen. There was just a tiny light at the HD DVD player so all I could see was a bit of the back of the chair, and I had no idea how this room was set up. To me it looked like he had room about 12 chairs on a sloped floor and the screen looked to be about 20-25 feet away. SWEET!

He then powered up the Ruby with a regular DVD player to start, and he told me that this was 'just' a DVD source. We viewed a clip from the Star Wars 5 film, and it looked pretty damn good right off the bat. The black levels weren't perfect, but they were better than literally all digitals that I can remember seeing, better than the Qualia and heck, better than some CRTs that I've seen with the brightness cranked way up.



Unfortunately I also saw red misconvergence immediately. The red image was shifted up and to the right, enough to be noticed in about 50% of what I watched. The blue looked to be OK, then again red misconvergence is always more visible than slight blue shift. But that aside, the image was great.
When we looked at more shots, I did see what I'd complained about at avs in the past: In scenes with bright faces, the bright spots looked a bit jaundiced, or as if the actor was about to break out with a bad case of acne, that his face or skin had oily splotches on it. I pointed this out to Darin, and he saw it too. Since I'd seen it on other digital projectors, this was not necessarily a fault of the Ruby.

Then Darin brought up the lights. My initial perception of the room was way way off. It was about a 18'X 13' room, not sloped, with a single seat in it.
As I said, black velvet all around. The seat was 12' away from the screen, not 20'. Amazing what zero ambient light can do to your perception.

Darin then switched to a multitude of HD DVDs. I saw clips from Serenity, Training Day and others. As he pointed out, the first generation HD units are slow in reading the discs, and apparently can be glitchy at times. The HD DVD was putting out 1080i which the Ruby was then reassembling (as it were) the image to 1080p.

There's no question that there was more detail in the image than with a standard DVD player, but as Darin mentioned, during another demo that he had at his place in mid demo during a break, he switched out the HD DVD of Serenity with the standard DVD version. Only one person noticed the lower resolution of the image.

Now it's interesting, I did not notice the acne/oil type sheen of people's faces with the HD DVD source. Am I seeing a limitation of the signal source or limitations in the digital display technology when I see this on other digital projectors? I have not seen this issue at all with CRT images.

Darin took off the neutral density filter from the Ruby about 1/2 way through the demo. The light output of the Ruby increased about 40% or so (my perception, measurements would show that the light output doubles with that filter removed), with a slight elevation of the absolute blacks as expected. Keeping in mind that I found the brightness level to be fine with the filter in place on a 10' wide screen (albeit in a perfectly black room), I thus believe the Ruby to have adequate brightness for HT applications. Those that want to view the Ruby with lots of ambient light will be disappointed. By my estimation, the Ruby puts out about as much light as any 8 or 9" EM focusing set.

One other slight flaw that I noticed with the Ruby was that the second 'D'
in the 'HD DVD' logo in the lower right corner was tinted pinkish as compared to the rest of the logo that was more neutral. Darin had said that he'd noticed this as well, but that he wasn't sure whether the discoloration was due to the signal source or the Ruby itself. I didn't notice this discoloration in any movie scences.

Due to time constraints, we didn't put up any test patterns that might have narrowed the source of this very minor fault down.

Darin also showed me a clip from the second LOTR movie of of Wormtounge'svery dark coat, but the Ruby showed a pattern in that black coat, something that a CRT without gamma correction might not display. We talked about the pros and cons of the various technologies, and being a guy that calls it like it is, I offer this:

My belief is that when you're dealing in high end display technologies, you can easily spend dozens of hours carefully selecting signals sources and fine tuning any projector of any type, spend thousands on accessories only to have a fellow enthusiast come in and comment that 'gee, I don't like that fleshtone setting', or ' I'm not sure if your gamma is set correctly'. As I've told many potential CRT customers that ask what make and model is the BEST projector, it really becomes subjective based on what the individual viewer likes to see. A flawless image will not make up for a bad movie or poor acting..

Is HD DVD better than standard DVDs? Yes. Am I going to dump my current 400 DVD collection? No. Will I buy a $600 first generation HD DVD player that is glitchy? No.

The Ruby: Is it the best digital image that I've seen? Yes. Is it perfect or better than CRT in every aspect? No.

The bulb life as I understand it is about 2000 hours, and the bulb costs $1000 USD. As per many avs postings in the >$3500 forum, Ruby owners (including Darin) are noticing dimming of the bulb in as low as 200 hours. BTW, Darin's Ruby had about 330 hours on it, and was plenty bright with the ND filter on it.
Will every Ruby owner get 2000 hours out of their bulb? I doubt it. Unlike the Qualia, there is apparently only a 90 day warranty on the bulb, and no spare bulb is included when you purchase a Ruby. This to me will make me a Ruby owner only when they show up in an as is condition on eBay for $500 or less, and only if I know that I can buy a bulb when that time comes.


We called it quits after about 90 minutes or so. I walked away from the demo now understanding what all the hype was about, that Ruby that I saw at the
Sony store in Vegas was a joke compared to what I saw here. Hopefully Sony
will be able to address the convergence and other quality control issues that are posted over at avs with the next generation of Rubys that come out.
For the person that wants a plug and play device, the Ruby will be a good choice. Will the Ruby still be playing in 3000 hours when my 9500 LC (or Barco 808 or NEC XG or Sony 1031) is just starting to show a hint of tube wear, or will bulbs be available for the Ruby in 7-8 years? I'm not sure.

One last note about the demo: I commented on the way out that the sound system sounded pretty good. While we didn't crank it up, the bass was solid and the dialouge was clear. Darin laughed and turned up the lights. The 'impressive' speakers were generic Sony tower speakers purchased at Costco, driven by a Pioneer surround receiver. The bass however was supplemented by a kickass SVS subwoofer. This actually showed me once again that you don't need to spend thousands on top notch equipment to get really good results on an audio or video level.

Comments?

[Dean McManis]

That's a pretty even-handed review, coming from an obvious CRT fan.

I've never noticed the "oil sheen" digital projector issue that he mentions, but I haven't seen the Ruby in real life yet. I suspect that this is a comment like we hear about from audiophiles, where they are keenly attuned to spot tiny flaws that most people don't see unless shown. 8)

The Ruby is a watershed projector, seeing that it's the same price as the better 720p DLP FPTVs were only a year or so ago. It would definitely be the projector that I'd buy if I had an extra $7500 to burn.
But as it is I probably won't be buying a new projector for 1-2 years from now with all of my money going into building a house (with a HT room ).
But that should be fine as by that time HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will have settled down and 1080P projectors should be down to around $2500.

I did recently see a side-by-side demo of HD mastered DVD and Blu-Ray, and about 9 out of 11 people clearly spotted the picture quality advantage to the HD media even over a top-notch HD mastered DVD.
And that wasn't even on native 1080p displays.

But I do agree that I'm not going to be tossing away my DVD collection, as I did with my LD collection years ago for HD-DVD.
I'm going to wait a while for player and media prices to drop out of the early adopter range down to standard consumer pricing before I jump in.
And hopefully the dual standard will get sorted out by then, or perhaps someone will build a dual-format player for an affordable price. :T

[Brandon B]

Sony's SXRD "Ruby" projector. Period.

Until June 1, that was true. JVC just dropped the price on the HD2K and the HD10K when unbundled from their scalers to compete in this class. The Ruby toasts them both in on-off CR, but they have quite a few things to recommend them in other areas. Definitely more lens options on the HD10K.

Ruby may come in a bit cheaper street price. JVC's use UHP lamps that are significantly less expensive and drop brightness somewhat more linearly.

Definitely make an effort to compare them to see which meets your priorities. Some are saying the JVC has a lgith brightness edge after calibration, but just going by specs I'd say that, even if that is true, it is such a small amount as to be not a factor unless you are pushing screen size to the very max.

BB

edit: checked, the HD2K now lists at $9995 and the HD10K at $14995. Street discount would have to be pretty hefty to bring the 10K into line with the Ruby. One note on the 10K, it will take and display 48Hz input.

[JKalman]

Does anyone have any idea where I might find information, when it is available, or news on future generation releases of the Ruby?

[draganm]

That's a pretty even-handed review, coming from an obvious CRT fan.I did recently see a side-by-side demo of HD mastered DVD and Blu-Ray, and about 9 out of 11 people clearly spotted the picture quality advantage to the HD media even over a top-notch HD mastered DVD.
And that wasn't even on native 1080p displays.

That is interesting, I guess downscaling a 1080P native source to 720 is still better than upscaling 480P. I'm not surprised by that, it's always easier to take away information than to create it and add it in. I for one am pretty tired of scaling, even though my HTPC is very stable and never locks up or stutters, It would be nice to just pop in a Bluerauy disc and not have to boot up Windows, launch Theatre Tek, Choose prefrences for Audio, etc.
I too will wait though, even thoguh I can get a DVI card for my Marquee CRT for only $200. I'm not about to pay the admission fee for a player at this point. I still remember the $450. I paid for the my first DVD player, still have it though and it works fine uptairs on the TV. The one thing that is really on my mind is how well the 8" tubed machines like Marquee 8500, NEC XG135 and Sony G70 will do with 1080P?

Does anyone have any idea where I might find information, when it is available, or news on future generation releases of the Ruby?

your kidding right, rememeber the Qualia? sony dropped that thing like a hot potato after 1 year, and that was a $30K machine. No one knows what is in the pipe-line, especially the manufacturers. I think they have a number of R&D programs running at all times and they make decisions based on which looks most prmosing at the end of the year, then start gearing prodution towards a spring relaease of the latest product.

[Brandon B]

Um, no the Qualia is still in production and still $30K.

The rumor is also that there is a newer UHP based 1080 SxRD PJ coming out soon for less money, with a working name of "pearl". Don't expect any more brightness from it though.

BB

[LEVESQUE]

Just like a CRT, the Ruby is not really good OOTB. You need to tweak it just like every other projectors out there.

Going to look at the Ruby in a dealer's demo room is not the way to appreciate that projector, or any projectors btw. Does people really think that a Sony G90 or a Cine9 were perfect OOTB? Don't think so...

Things I did to my Ruby: putting the primairies and secondaries on track color decoder), greyscale (D65), iris tweaks (Sony OOTB settings are not really good), custom gamma curve (to get rid of the "big" brightness compression artifact totally and easily...), uniformity, disabling vertical edge enhancement...

Really easy to do with Colorfacts, OpticOne or a MInolta Spectro, and Sony Image Director Software for the custom gamma curve.

If people are tweaking those CRTs to death non-stop, why not pass a big 5-6 hours on a Ruby to have it perform fully?

Then buy a good scaler (Gennum VXP or Realta HQV) to bypass the Ruby internal scaler at 1080p, a Toshiba HD-DVD player (disponible now)and a Blu-Ray player (at the end of this month).

I've seen G90s fully calibrated, and even a Cine9, and the Ruby (after careful calibration) is up there with those, and doing alot better of things better... CR is not everything, but since my fully tweaked Ruby was measured at 22000:1, I think it's still pretty good...

BTW, the Ruby is not dim. If you put any CRT in the same room, there is not a single CRT that is brighter. You need at least a stack of 9". And alot of single chip DLPs are even dimmer then the Ruby when calibrated at D65.

And paired with a high-gain screen, and after 300 hours on my Ruby, I still have to blink in really bright scene. Plenty bright. Brighter then a Sharp 12K and a Marantz S4 I also got in my room last month.

Another thing. The Ruby was made for HD. With standard DVDs, alot of projectors (720p, CRTs) are able to compete with the Ruby, but with HD-DVD disks, the gap is widening alot. the Ruby is unbelievable with HD-DVD.

I have a friend, ISF calibrators, calibrating alot of high-end 9" CRTs, Qualias, etc, and he told me my set-up and video chain was the best he has seen under 40K$.

Fully tweaked Ruby, Gennum VXP scaler, Toshiba HD-DVD player, and a pre-production Blu-Ray player. That's what I'm using. It's 1080p TODAY and now. Awesome picture quality. :T

[draganm]

well I agree with you, a dealer demo room is usually terrible. Heck the Sony factory display at CES LAs Vegas was horrible by all accounts. However the review above was in a private theatre and set-up by someone who tweaks the hell out of every latest digital to come along. IT was not a bad review, as a matter of fact it really points out a lot of great qualities. However, panel misalignment problems and $1000. bulbs is enough to keep me in the CRT arena. We'll see what Sony has to offer next year.

[Brandon B]

BTW, the Ruby is not dim. If you put any CRT in the same room, there is not a single CRT that is brighter. You need at least a stack of 9". And alot of single chip DLPs are even dimmer then the Ruby when calibrated at D65.

It's all relative. Its brightness is the single thing that is keeping me from buying it. I want to go rather bigger and constant height on my next setup. Since I am at 120" diagonal now, the Ruby isn't quite up to it if I plan to use the lamp out to it's full life. 20-30% more lumens would probably just do it.

Of course my present PJ was at close to 2000 lumens when calibrated and new, and my screen is a highpower, so anything under 30 Ft-L seems dim to me.

BB

[draganm]

Of course my present PJ was at close to 2000 lumens when calibrated and new, and my screen is a highpower, so anything under 30 Ft-L seems dim to me.
BB

well the problem with having that much FL at the screen and a very narrow CR is your eyes close the Iris down and it stays that way. By having a PJ with higher dynamic range you can have only a fraction of that light output and it will appear even brighter because your eyes are having to adjust all the time between full black and full white. To me, having a narrow CR and a bulb that's on all the time is like having a surround system that can't reproduce quiet scenes in a movie and is always playing either loud or very loud.

[Brandon B]

30 Ft-L, or even 50 or 70 are not levels where your iris closes down and stays that way. Those are nothing compared to outdoor daylight light levels that your eye is evolved to handle (or designed, for those who prefer). I understand your point though. Just think you're applying it at the wrong point in the curve.

Also, I never said anything about narrow CR. My PJ does in fact have a pretty mediocre CR, it's coming up on 5 years old. I'd argue that a projector that can only hit 12-15 Ft-L is akin to a system that has a stunningly low noise floor, but can't come anywhere near reference level. Still perfectly enjoyable, but lacking in impact. Regardless, though, brightness and contrast are not inextricably tied together. So contrast doesn't enter into the debate.

You ignored my point of larger screens. The ruby just cannot do anything over about 10' wide if you're even going to hit SMPTE standard 12 Ft-L throughout the life of its lamp. If it would, I'd damn well be willing to give up my bright image for all the other advantages.

BB

[draganm]

You ignored my point of larger screens. The ruby just cannot do anything over about 10' wide if you're even going to hit SMPTE standard 12 Ft-L throughout the life of its lamp. If it would, I'd damn well be willing to give up my bright image for all the other advantages.

BB

I agree, for a screen that large I would blend 2 x 8" CRT's, quite the bargain for only $23K including the Diventix processor :B

http://www.true-colours.net/products/manufacturer/AnalogWay/Di-VentiX.htm

[Dean McManis]

I've had a 180" diag. 0.85 gain perforated screen with a variety of projectors and as long as you've got a light controlled room, it looks great.
That's one of the distinct advantages of digital projectors over CRT units. 8)

I'd MUCH rather run a pair of stacked Rubys to support a bigger screen (if I didn't have room light control) than trying to setup and maintain two CRT projectors. Adding a second CRT FPTV more than doubles the complications of trying to have a CRT projector work optimally, with so many variations to keep track of, and serious, regular tweaking to keep everything aligned and in sync. :x

Dual CRT FPTVs were the HOT setup for the super-rich a decade ago, but now you don't need anywhere near that level of complication to support a large screen. :T

[George Bellefontaine]

Dual CRT FPTVs were the HOT setup for the super-rich a decade ago, but now you don't need anywhere near that level of complication to support a large screen. :T

So true, Dean. I only have a 105" diag 1 gain screen in a room with total light control and have also owned a variety of digital projectors that gave plenty of brightness... in fact, better than the local theaters and I always use a stepped down iris setting and lamp in eco mode.

[zorg]

may wish to consider the optoma HD81 listed at 10k RRP.. will take 1080p inputs..

notes here

also a thread on that other forum (avs)

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESdi...Pprojector.php

[JKalman]

may wish to consider the optoma HD81 listed at 10k RRP.. will take 1080p inputs..

notes here

also a thread on that other forum (avs)

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESdi...Pprojector.php

Thanks for that link and suggestion. I love the separate box for inputs, that would make my life a lot easier for hooking things up.

Thanks to everyone so far for the suggestions and help.

Does anyone know of or recommend any stands, or is ceiling mount the easiest way to place the projector? I still have a some time before I even start this project since I'm still in the process of getting my listening room consultation from Rives Audio. When I do start though, I want to have a plan on where I am putting these things so I can have it all done at once.

If anyone knows any pros or cons on the VPL-VW100 vs the Optoma HD81, please let me know. I've heard some people get headaches from the DLP chips, and that there are often a lot of rainbow effects. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks again.

[draganm]

I'd MUCH rather run a pair of stacked Rubys to support a bigger screen (if I didn't have room light control) than trying to setup and maintain two CRT projectors. Adding a second CRT FPTV more than doubles the complications of trying to have a CRT projector work optimally, with so many variations to keep track of, and serious, regular tweaking to keep everything aligned and in sync. :x

serious regular tweaking? You know I hear that all the time and I just don't know where all that misinformation about CRT's comes from. I have had my Marquee up and dialed in for 3 years and it has certainly never needed serious tweaking. Maybe a 10 minute convergence touch-up every 6 months, if that? The older ES focus sets from the late 80's earlly 90's were known for coenvergence drift but hardly anyone is still running sets that old anymore.
2 Ruby's up on the ceiling? No thanks, when 1 bulb goes out you would have to replace both or 1 side of the sreen would be 50% brighter. So that's $2K anytime 1 bulb fails, 8O no thanks.
At this point if I was to choose a bulb machine I would choose a proven DLP over a sony Ruby, with 7X color wheel I did not see rainbows and I was looking for them on the 710. Of course black levels were too high for my taste but at least they're proven, capable of 1080P, and $10K is not outside the realm of sanity.

[Brandon B]

2 Ruby's up on the ceiling? No thanks, when 1 bulb goes out you would have to replace both or 1 side of the sreen would be 50% brighter. So that's $2K anytime 1 bulb fails, no thanks.

?? Why would 1 bulb failing do anything but make the entire image 1/2 as bright?

BB

[zorg]

rumour on avs (can i say that word) is that the HD81 will street at 6K which is very sharp.... They are saying release is now late August if you can hang on... Big advantage with the separate scaler box 3 x HDMi inputs, 2 x component etc. Only issue is lack of lens shift and offset.

Once again heaps of threads on both PJ's on AVS and vs each other.. Biggest issue with the Sony is lamp life and price. Those who have seen both say the Optoma is brighter and sharper than the Sony, although some argue the Sony is still more "film like"...

[JKalman]

rumour on avs (can i say that word) is that the HD81 will street at 6K which is very sharp.... They are saying release is now late August if you can hang on... Big advantage with the separate scaler box 3 x HDMi inputs, 2 x component etc. Only issue is lack of lens shift and offset.

Once again heaps of threads on both PJ's on AVS and vs each other.. Biggest issue with the Sony is lamp life and price. Those who have seen both say the Optoma is brighter and sharper than the Sony, although some argue the Sony is still more "film like"...

Good to know. I am not going to be buying one till after August so I will have to keep my eyes peeled and ears out. 8O

[draganm]

?? Why would 1 bulb failing do anything but make the entire image 1/2 as bright?
BB

Dean and I were talking about blending, not stacking. With stacking both machines display the entire image, in a blend you send half the image to each PJ. With Ruby stacking would probably be the better way to go and eliminate the need for a $17K Diventix blender. With CRT,the use of a Blender is ideal bacause it eliminates severe GEOM adjustments and allows for full Phosphor usage on tube face.
blending is a pretty hard core solution, it's only this year that an "affordable" blender at $17K has become available. In the past, blending has been the domain of multi-million dollar simulators like the one on this page

http://www.eisemann-theater.com/

Now, it's something for crazy guys like me to dream about. I only want to blend a pair of CRT's on a 11 foot wide 2.35:1 CR constant height screen. All I need is a new house with a bigger theatre and $20K to spend on just the video system.

[JKalman]

http://www.eisemann-theater.com/

Honey? Remember you said I could install a home theatre? Don't get angry when you see it... Try it out a little first, then tell me if you like it. Just give it a chance. :B

Oh, and the good news is, we don't have to pay for the kids to go to college anymore. The bad news is that they now qualify for student loans. :E

[draganm]

Honey? Remember you said I could install a home theatre? Don't get angry when you see it... Try it out a little first, then tell me if you like it. Just give it a chance. :B

well yeah it can all get a little ridiculous, but I think that is where the HT tech. is actually going. It's all about the "immersive experience" and it will never be truly immersive as long as your looking at a flat screen. Eventually someone will build a bulb machine with 3 lenses shooting out at 30 degree angles and delivering a 120 degree field of view on a "personal Imax" type of set-up. There will also be crazy guys like me who will dream of blending 3 CRT's when that happens.
I don't see why Pilots should be the only ones able to enjoy this type of set-up just so they can learn how to fly :roll: . I think my ability to drink beer and watch Lord of the Rings with the same technology is just as good a reason. :B

[JKalman]

well yeah it can all get a little ridiculous, but I think that is where the HT tech. is actually going. It's all about the "immersive experience" and it will never be truly immersive as long as your looking at a flat screen. Eventually someone will build a bulb machine with 3 lenses shooting out at 30 degree angles and delivering a 120 degree field of view on a "personal Imax" type of set-up. There will also be crazy guys like me who will dream of blending 3 CRT's when that happens.
I don't see why Pilots should be the only ones able to enjoy this type of set-up just so they can learn how to fly :roll: . I think my ability to drink beer and watch Lord of the Rings with the same technology is just as good a reason. :B

If you drink enough beer, you won't need 3 CRTs! :rofl:

[Brandon B]

Dean and I were talking about blending, not stacking. With stacking both machines display the entire image, in a blend you send half the image to each PJ.

a pair of stacked Rubys

Well, no, you were talking about stacking, or at least Dean was.

And (edge) blending a pair of Rubies would not make much sense. You would need some extra lensing to use the whole panel, some pretty nonstandard scaling/splitting hardware, and the PJ's resolution and fill factor make it unnecessary. And, as you point out, make it mandatory to relamp both PJs. I see what confused me though, I thought you meant half screen half brightness after the lamp failure but before the relamp.

Straight stacking gets your brightness up for the larger screen, and eliminates edge concerns and uneven lamp decay from the equation.

BB

[Audiophiliac]

You missed out on a recent deal from Runco. They discontinued the VX1000D and were selling them fairly inexpensively. Right at or under your $10k mark. You MAY be able to find a dealer who bought several at the discount if you are at all interested. I installed on on a 123" firehawk and it is breathtaking.

[JKalman]

You missed out on a recent deal from Runco. They discontinued the VX1000D and were selling them fairly inexpensively. Right at or under your $10k mark. You MAY be able to find a dealer who bought several at the discount if you are at all interested. I installed on on a 123" firehawk and it is breathtaking.

I'm looking for projectors that resolve at full HD resolution and have progressive scan, i.e. - 1920 x 1080p. Thanks though.

[draganm]

Well, no, you were talking about stacking, or at least Dean was.

actually you can't stack Ruby's, can you? I mean with CRT you have infinite Geometry and Convergenece controls to align both images, regardless of whether you stack or Blend. With a Ruby, you can't even converge 1 Projector, much less 2.
the beauty of Blending CRT is the Diventix sends half the pic and HALF the Horizontal resolution to both machines. Each projector is only displaying half of 1080P, which would be 960x1080, a bit higher counting the overlap, say 1024x1080? In other words, by splitting the resolution each machine is loafing, well within it's rated bandwidth and any refresh rate you like 72Hz, 80hz, or hell even 120? Most importantly they will do it for 10K hours without needing a bulb replacement, all the while delivering the best black levels and highest CR of any display device.
I saw a blended CRT on a big screen back in Feb., the peak white was stunning, and the rest of the screen stayed dark at the same time. It is, without a doubt in my mind, the reference for all big screen projection.

[Dean McManis]

actually you can't stack Ruby's, can you? I mean with CRT you have infinite Geometry and Convergenece controls to align both images, regardless of whether you stack or Blend. With a Ruby, you can't even converge 1 Projector, much less 2.
the beauty of Blending CRT is the Diventix sends half the pic and HALF the Horizontal resolution to both machines. Each projector is only displaying half of 1080P, which would be 960x1080, a bit higher counting the overlap, say 1024x1080? In other words, by splitting the resolution each machine is loafing, well within it's rated bandwidth and any refresh rate you like 72Hz, 80hz, or hell even 120? Most importantly they will do it for 10K hours without needing a bulb replacement, all the while delivering the best black levels and highest CR of any display device.
I saw a blended CRT on a big screen back in Feb., the peak white was stunning, and the rest of the screen stayed dark at the same time. It is, without a doubt in my mind, the reference for all big screen projection.

Yeah, I was definitely talking about stacking, not blending.

I've owned 3 CRT FPTVs (including two electrohomes and a Sony 1292Q (9" CRTs), so I know a fair amount about living with them.

It's very fortunate that you can go 6 months without tweaking. With me, it was every time I setup a movie night. Maybe I'm extra picky.

Digital projectors on the otherhand are true zero-touch displays once you have them calibrated, the only thing that changes over time is the light output, and that's years in the transition after the initial ramp down from a new bulb.

The Ruby is 1080P native, so there is no resolution benefit for two of them.
My comments were regarding an owner wanting to stack two Rubys for the extra light, to handle a non-light controlled room combined with a VERY big screen. And the tiny variance in the geometry between two stacked units would be no problem to compensate for.

There are many adjustments to alter the barely keystoned image. The complaints about convergence are related to fixed alignment issues during manufacture between the different LCD panels, not extrnally from the projector. This is an issue like dead pixels and a manufacturing glitch. I've been VERY fortunate to not have deal pixels in any of my digital projectors so far. The convergence of ALL of my CRT projectors was 10 times the issue that any of my digital projectors have had, and that would be even more complicated by having two CRT FPTVs. :E

Replacing bulbs is no sweat and the bulbs generally last several years so it's not really a cost issue or a heavy maintenance problem.

I just swapped out a bulb in my Studio Experience 50HD and it took around 10 minutes, which is no trouble to do every 2 years or so.

And even though by specs the CRTs provide far superior blacks, in my experience this HD50 provides equivalent blacks and shadow detail to my 1292Q, and it's brighter, with better edge focus, plus it doesn't weigh 200lbs and is nearly silent compared to the $40K new Sony 1292Q and it's 13 fans wirring directly overhead.

CRT projectors are great, being a mature technology. And can be a great deal for the techncally adept and adventurous. But I've been there, and I'll never go back now. :T

As far as rainbows go, I've had so many people over for movie nights I can't count anymore, and this is my second DLP FPTV. And I've never had any comments (let alone complaints) about picture quality or fatigue. :B

I do recognize that some people are genuinely affected by rainbows, but they are a tiny minority. I would recommend to get a chance to sit down and watch a DLP projector for 30-45 minutes and see if it does affect you, but chances are it won't. Especially with the newer models with higher colorwheel speeds and multi-segment designs which virtually eliminate rainbow effects to all but the most sensitive eyes. 8)

[draganm]

Yeah, I was definitely talking about stacking, not blending.I've owned 3 CRT FPTVs (including two electrohomes and a Sony 1292Q (9" CRTs), so I know a fair amount about living with them.It's very fortunate that you can go 6 months without tweaking. With me, it was every time I setup a movie night. Maybe I'm extra picky

the fact that you've actually owned and operated the upper end of the CRT makes/models certainly gives your opinion a lot of credibility. I might venture a guess that if that 1292 had been a G90 it would still be hanging in your theatre, (not sure if your running 180" wide or diagonal)? There's no such thing as "the perfect projection technology" , even film has lots of problems.
Your Viper sums up pretty well your affinity for newer technology, where as I still have 1972 Dodge Challenger in my garage. The fact that I just bought a new $1000. tube amplifier for my turntable also means I will always be one of those guys with an affinity for classical gear, forever suspicious and distrustful of new technology. Not to say I upsacle VHS tapes for my HT but trying to do a balaned mix of old and new. No matter what gear you run though, I'm just happy to be able to afford a theatre that 10 years ago was only for the super rich.

[Dean McManis]

I hope that you didn't get the impression that I didn't like my Sony 1292Q. It was a dream of mine to own a front projector with 9" CRTs and the 1292Q was an awesome unit. With the G90 being even better still.

But these are professional projectors. Robust, high quality, expensive and very complex.

When I used to go to trade shows and I'd watch the A/V crew take 8 hours to setup the CRT projector ahead of time, I seriously thought that is was a scam that they were milking the job by taking so long.

But then after I got the Sony I saw that the original setup takes at least that long to get everything dialed in optimally. And that's after you at least know the basics and have a manual to access the many levels of configuration controls, not to mention the physical adjustments.

Happily the major setup task only has to be done once, when you first install the unit. But I'd still do regular convergence and alignment touch-ups whenever I'd fire up the projector for a movie.

My current screen is a 16:9, 180" diagonal, Stewart Grayhawk microperf.
And with the Sony I had a 120" diag, Draper M2500 screen.

I also have a customized 1959 Karmann Ghia convertible that I've owned for years, and used to own a great many American 60s cars including a '69 Belvedere (like the roadrunner) with a 440 and 6-pack. :E And I moved and restored an 1875 victorian house, so I do appreciate and enjoy classic things.

But I also love new technology, and I did leave my VHS tapes, tube amps and record players behind in the past. Records might have sweeter sounding distortion, but what I remember most was the scratches, skipping and how careful you had to be with them.

I do very much agree with you that it's amazing how great of a home theater experience that you can have today for a fraction of the price of only a few years ago. Regardless of which technology direction that you choose.

[aud19]

FYI, I just read a review of the Yamaha DPX1300 projector in this months HT Magazine and the reviewer basically recommended it over the Sony even with it's lesser 1280x720 resolution. He basically said, if you can get past the lower resolution numbers, the Yamaha does everything better than the Sony, has none of it's shortcomings and basically trounces it in PQ. It has the best ANSI contrast they've measured, one of the lowest black levels and the colour points were so accurate that any discrepency between what they measured was within the margin of error of their testing equipment.

Pretty impressive piece of equipment! :T

[draganm]

FYI, I just read a review of the Yamaha DPX1300 projector in this months HT Magazine and the reviewer basically recommended it over the Sony even with it's lesser 1280x720 resolution. He basically said, if you can get past the lower resolution numbers, the Yamaha does everything better than the Sony, has none of it's shortcomings and basically trounces it in PQ.

I would really have to take that review with a heavy dose of skepticism. I have found magaine reviews practically useless, and I don't trust any of them. The only mag I have read that is truly honest, or at least try's to ve, is Stereophile. They don't try to sugracoat a turd and call it as such.
Judgeing by the specs the technologicaly Yammy is no different than the Sony HS51 at 1/3rd the cost. 5K CR just doesn't cut it and that is not real black-level IMO. There is no way that single chip 720DLP can outperform the Sony 3 chip LCOS except in terms of the cost of replacement bulbs.

[Brandon B]

the Yamaha does everything better than the Sony

If you don't see spatial and temporal dithering or color fringing.

Seriously, while the Yamaha is a very nice machine, this review has problems. The Sony can be calibrated to have pretty damn amazing color and brightness uniformity, and anyone who says the resolution jump from 720 to 1080 doesn't matter (on projectors otherwise in the same performance class) is just full of it. This review was done (just) before the two new HD disc formats have gotten into swing, and that says something to me. And their black levels should not be particularly different once calibrated. They claiming 800 lumens for the Yamaha, and everyone agrees the Ruby is around that or a little less once calibrated. Since the Ruby has a native contrast of around 4000+:1 (with the iris system not engaged), they are just not going to differ much here.

DLP in general has it over other digitals in ANSI. LCOS is sort of in there with it on on-off contrast, at least from Sony. And LCD has, well, brightness and price. But anyone putting this much money into a 1 chip 720 DLP today is goofy. You can get the Sim2 C3X 3 DLP for a bit more, lose the color wheel and get a lot more light to work with, if you are looking for reasons to go down that road.

BB

[aud19]

Fair enough, just some info I came across I thought I'd share I've read good things about that Sim2 unit too, they sure do make nice gear :T

As for buying 1080p right now...I pretty much agree. However, I personally wouldn't spend over $5k myself right now. Tech/prices etc are all changing WAY to quickly for that much $$$ IMO.

[JKalman]

Fair enough, just some info I came across I thought I'd share I've read good things about that Sim2 unit too, they sure do make nice gear :T

As for buying 1080p right now...I pretty much agree. However, I personally wouldn't spend over $5k myself right now. Tech/prices etc are all changing WAY to quickly for that much $$$ IMO.

Yeah, I'm considering going really cheap right now as a hold over until projectors and preprocessors with HDMI 1.3 come out. I'm interested in Dolby-HD and DTS-HD, then I'm not buying anything after I have that system set up for at least a decade... (Well except speaker upgrades! :W)

I was really psyched about that Optoma HD81 until I read about the fixed angle lens (or whatever it is...). Unfortunately, at the angle above the screen I would have to affix it, the projector would be through the ceiling and in the den upstairs, LOL. :cry:

[JKalman]

Though, it is not a huge issue, since I can just buy players which will process and output HD audio (DTS-HD and Dolby-HD) analog in the future, instead of worrying about the entire system using HDMI 1.3, since my preprocessor has a 5.1 channel bypass mode.

[aud19]

Yeah, I'm considering going really cheap right now as a hold over until projectors and preprocessors with HDMI 1.3 come out. I'm interested in Dolby-HD and DTS-HD, then I'm not buying anything after I have that system set up for at least a decade... (Well except speaker upgrades! :W)

I was really psyched about that Optoma HD81 until I read about the fixed angle lens (or whatever it is...). Unfortunately, at the angle above the screen I would have to affix it, the projector would be through the ceiling and in the den upstairs, LOL. :cry:

Hell I'll even go as far to say I might only buy a quality 3-chip LCD FP at this point until some of the following occur:

-3 chip 1080p DLP becomes relatively common and less than $10k
-LCOS/SXRD figure out how to utilize cheaper bulbs
-Either/both/all of these techs figure out how to use LED (PhAt or similar) lighting that is much cooler, longer lasting, cheaper and better quality.

[Brandon B]

Sony HS-51A.