1080p! What good is it now?

[yanksuck888]

Does 1080p make any difference now? i do not see how it can make a difference now because not all the broadcasts are even in full HD yet which is 720p. so there is not even any broadcast that even shows 1080p now and it is probably goin to be a long time cuz comcast right now only has about 20 channels that are fully 720p now. 1080p is sort of like a step in the future to my knowledge. am i right? if not let me know what it does for me just with a 720p broadcast coming through my set. does it make the picture better, do some upconvert which is all bull? let me know.

[Lex]

Typically, your source will have to have the upscale capability. Example, I have a Samsung DVD-HD1000 DVD player that upconverts 480p to 720p or 1080i. But it won't touch 1080p, not designed for it.

Directv builds no receivers with that capability. computer DVD perhaps could upscale to 1080p. What else could currently do this? not much I am aware of.

It could be called futureproofing at this point. But how much will truly head this direction, I am not aware of it. Satellite companies have bandwidth problems with MPEG2 and current HD specs. Now with MPEG4, that may change some, but I don't see them having enough for 1080p, and lots of channels. Someone else correct me if I am wrong. I am not the pro in this area.

Doug

[Shane Martin]

and it is probably goin to be a long time cuz comcast right now only has about 20 channels that are fully 720p now.

Not all channels are 720p. There are quite a few channels that Comcast has that are 1080I such as INHD, CBS, NBC, and more.

A 1080P set is buying for the future like Lex said. HD DVD/Blu Ray will be 1080P(provided you buy the proper player to output that) and eventually things will change on the broadcast side. PS3 will have a 1080P output as well.

[peterS]

unfortunatly no "1080p" tv can handle a native 1080p signal
eventialy they will
the mitsubishi dlp can through a firewire but that does little good except for the mitsubishi rep hooking up a hard drive
bluray will not use firewire as it is unincripted

"upscaling" 1080i as all the "1080p" telivisions do introduces a lot of variables
they all have issues w/ pixelation especialy around text and backgrounds
voice to video sink can be a problem... ie you have to feed audio out through the tv rather than the source

if you have a tv in another room playing the same source get ready for some more anoyances... the upscaled tellivision will have a significant delay

[Chris D]

True, no TV is broacast in 1080p yet. I don't know when that may/will start. But all other high-def material that I know of today is either available already in 1080p, or will be within 4 months.

This includes upscaled standard DVD, computer output, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, Playstation 3, etc. So no, 1080p is far from being a "waste" right now.

[peterS]

Typically, your source will have to have the upscale capability. Example, I have a Samsung DVD-HD1000 DVD player that upconverts 480p to 720p or 1080i. But it won't touch 1080p, not designed for it.

Directv builds no receivers with that capability. computer DVD perhaps could upscale to 1080p. What else could currently do this? not much I am aware of.

It could be called futureproofing at this point. But how much will truly head this direction, I am not aware of it. Satellite companies have bandwidth problems with MPEG2 and current HD specs. Now with MPEG4, that may change some, but I don't see them having enough for 1080p, and lots of channels. Someone else correct me if I am wrong. I am not the pro in this area.

Doug

yes bandwidth is a huige issue.... its going to kill the cable companies
satalite has an advantage
my money says you will never see anything in the next 5 years broadcast above 720p (fox sports and discovery hd are the onlyones who do 720p)

i would dissagree with the statement that the current 1080p upscaling tvs are futerproofing.... quite the contrary, as stated in my other post they cannot accept native 1080p so untill they can stay away imo unless you are mr money bags

even when the do become available stay away untill bluray/hddvd becomes the norm because they could use some refinement and again that will be the first true 1080p source available

exciting stuff but the industry is playinc catchup with what these screens can do
id even venture to say you are pretty future proof w/ a 720p screen for the next 5 years :W

[Shane Martin]

unfortunatly no "1080p" tv can handle a native 1080p signal

The HP DLP's can.

[peterS]

The HP DLP's can.

through hdmi!?
news to me 8O

[peterS]

looks like you are correct
anyone ever put one of these to use on here?

[aud19]

yes quite the contrary, as stated in my other post they cannot accept native 1080p so untill they can stay away imo unless you are mr money bags

The others have made good points but I'll also add, (again)

..the difference between 1080p and de-interlaced 1080i to 1080p via quality electronics will be miniscule to nill.

[aud19]

my money says you will never see anything in the next 5 years broadcast above 720p

Also, many would argue that 1080i IS above 720p

[JorgenMan]

yes bandwidth is a huige issue.... its going to kill the cable companies
satalite has an advantage

What do you mean by this? Cable has more bandwidth than satellite - on a cable, you don't share bandwidth with anyone else.

[peterS]

Also, many would argue that 1080i IS above 720p

incorrectly so
1080i has more pixels 720p looks better, especialy w/ motion
not sure if that was sarcasm... has been a long day

[peterS]

The others have made good points but I'll also add, (again)

i disagree entirely :java:

i take it you have never seen a 1080p hardrive hooked up through firewire

[Lex]

Yeah, I would like to caveate my own future proof statement with this, given the in flux standards for high rez formats, and past history (remember when they said you'd be good to go with component vid input only for HD? I'd be scared to trust that today's sets are in fact all they will need to be to take full advantage of 1080p.

Fact is, until all the dust settles, I could care less about 1080p. My own house is limited as many of yours are, by updates to major technology pieces only as required or as true obsolescence occurs, or perhaps as servicability dictates. Then, if the tech is in place, maybe. But I learned a long time ago, I cannot possibly keep up with every tech change that comes up the pike. It just costs to much coin for me.

Doug

[Shane Martin]

1080i has more pixels 720p looks better, especialy w/ motion

Not IMHO. CBS's picture quality is far superior to Fox, ABC, and ESPN when comparing football and basketball.

[Andrew M Ward]

Wow!

I find this whole thread astounding!

The picture we see today from Satellite or Cable Set-Top-Box are not related to a technologies "ultimate performance" because cable companies and satellite companies have huge bandwidth limitation issues and every hi-def signal is compressed to fit the pipeline by a device called a "statistical Multi-plexer" or stat-mux device.

This device steals bandwidth intermittently from multiple sources being managed together and delivered to the distribution network, allowing a CATV company to have many Hi-def channels going at the same time down one bandwidth limited pipeline... more later if you're interested.

Bottom line:
720P has basically 33% more picture information than 1080i ~ 720P executed properly looks noticeably better than 1080i

1080P looks about twice as good as 1080i (executed properly) because (strangely enough) it contains about twice as much picture information. It’s like a moving photograph it's so lifelike.

Reading peoples comments that a de-interlaced 1080i looks about like 1080P is pretty silly... over a set-top-box in today’s world of super-compressed video distribution from the CATV Headend facility, sure all hi-def pictures look about the same.

Just like all audio sources sound about the same through a boom-box...

Tomorrow (or whenever compression technology catches up or distribution bandwidth catches up) things will look better and better and better.

Some lame Broadcasters selected 1080i because it is easier to transmit because it has 1/2 as much data to move down the pipe. Eventually 1080p will rule.

This forum suggesting that lower-grade performance is "fine" is a complete reversal from what I would expect.

Performance matters

BTW: There is a 1080p DVD player and it's been shipping for months and months now (Classe' CDP-300) sure it doesn’t have any display device to talk to at 1080P yet, but soon it will, and it does matter. (To me)

2 cents

[aud19]

I still say IMO on a 1080p display, a properly de-interlaced 1080i source will be barely indistinguishable from a 1080p source.

Look at 480i DVD vs 480p DVD. If the de-interlacer in your display is as good or better than the one in the player, 480i can look as good or better as well.

Nevermind how any of this is effected by seating distance. Lot's of people can't tell the difference between EDTV and HDTV plasmas from common seating distances

I'm not saying I don't look forward to 1080p display/sources but I'm not going to say you absolutely must wait either.

[Shane Martin]

BTW: There is a 1080p DVD player and it's been shipping for months and months now (Classe' CDP-300) sure it doesn’t have any display device to talk to at 1080P yet, but soon it will, and it does matter. (To me)

No 1080P software so it's just a scaling player. The Neuneuo has been shipping for a while and does 1080P as well. Again no software as its' an upscaling player like the Classe. Only several thousand cheaper

The real deal 1080p players with 1080P software should be shipping in a few months tops.

[aud19]

Bottom line:
720P has basically 33% more picture information than 1080i ~ 720P executed properly looks noticeably better than 1080i

There's actually 115,200 more pixels in a 1080i signal than 720p. I will agree that in general 720p should look better with motion, 1080i better with still/slow moving images, though that's dependant on an awful lot of factors.

[Andrew M Ward]

No 1080P software so it's just a scaling player. The Neuneuo has been shipping for a while and does 1080P as well. Again no software as its' an upscaling player like the Classe. Only several thousand cheaper

The real deal 1080p players with 1080P software should be shipping in a few months tops.

Not correct sir,
The NeuNeo piece is not 1080p but they say it will be with a software upgrade (someday)

The Classe' piece is actually 1080p was 1080p the day it shipped (these are facts) it can only hadshake with a few device out there at 1080p because the display mfgr's are behind the curve on delivery.

[Andrew M Ward]

There's actually 115,200 more pixels in a 1080i signal than 720p. I will agree that in general 720p should look better with motion, 1080i better with still/slow moving images, though that's dependant on an awful lot of factors.

pixels are fixed on the screen and have nothing to do with the source material?

720p delivered correctly has 33% more picture information per frame than 1080i... 1080i is 540 interlaced lines 30 times a second, 720p is 720 fixed lines 60 times a second.

[Andrew M Ward]

I still say IMO on a 1080p display, a properly de-interlaced 1080i source will be barely indistinguishable from a 1080p source.

Look at 480i DVD vs 480p DVD. If the de-interlacer in your display is as good or better than the one in the player, 480i can look as good or better as well.

Nevermind how any of this is effected by seating distance. Lot's of people can't tell the difference between EDTV and HDTV plasmas from common seating distances

I'm not saying I don't look forward to 1080p display/sources but I'm not going to say you absolutely must wait either.

first of all no offence but you need a video class.

A)
480i and 480p off of a DVD is the same source information!!!! they should look very much the same because it's the same 480 lines of information coming off the disc source.

which has nothing to do with 720p source and a 1080i source or a 1080p source (nothing!)

B)
if something is shot in hi-def it can then be converted to many different output levels. the CATV (Cable Television companies) compress it down to a particular format either 720p (ABC & ESPN & Disney Etc.) which is a huge bandwidth size or they compress it to 1080i (a 33% smaller file size) containing 33% less video resolution or 33% less information or 33% lower quality... for easier future or live distribution.

C)
There are many methods of distributing video, at live events they use a statistical multiplexer device which then compresses the hi-def signal even further and thus all hi-def kind of ends up looking about the same. due to multiple stages of video compression and decompression formulas to lessen the bandwidth for easier distribution.

D) in there native uncompressed non-distributed formats 1080i and 1080p could not look more different, in fact it's a staggering difference.

Please read my original post which you must have skipped over.... I’m not trying to be an ass and I’m not trying to be a know-it-all, I’m just trying to tell you politely but firmly...

I used to work for Scientific-Atlanta, we built live sat-trucks and handled video satellite uplinlinking and CATV head-end distribution. We built QAM multiplexers and statistical multiplexing machines (in fact) the first north American stat-mux was called the Pegasus and was used in a facility I frequented regularly...

I repeat: in their native uncompressed forms 1080i and 1080p are so very very different, which has nothing to do with why a DVD on interlaced or Progressive setting may seem similar.

[peterS]

first of all no offence but you need a video class.

A)
480i and 480p off of a DVD is the same source information!!!! they should look very much the same because it's the same 480 lines of information coming off the disc source.

which has nothing to do with 720p source and a 1080i source or a 1080p source (nothing!)

B)
if something is shot in hi-def it can then be converted to many different output levels. the CATV (Cable Television companies) compress it down to a particular format either 720p (ABC & ESPN & Disney Etc.) which is a huge bandwidth size or they compress it to 1080i (a 33% smaller file size) containing 33% less video resolution or 33% less information or 33% lower quality... for easier future or live distribution.

C)
There are many methods of distributing video, at live events they use a statistical multiplexer device which then compresses the hi-def signal even further and thus all hi-def kind of ends up looking about the same. due to multiple stages of video compression and decompression formulas to lessen the bandwidth for easier distribution.

D) in there native uncompressed non-distributed formats 1080i and 1080p could not look more different, in fact it's a staggering difference.

Please read my original post which you must have skipped over.... I’m not trying to be an ass and I’m not trying to be a know-it-all, I’m just trying to tell you politely but firmly...

I used to work for Scientific-Atlanta, we built live sat-trucks and handled video satellite uplinlinking and CATV head-end distribution. We built QAM multiplexers and statistical multiplexing machines (in fact) the first north American stat-mux was called the Pegasus and was used in a facility I frequented regularly...

I repeat: in their native uncompressed forms 1080i and 1080p are so very very different, which has nothing to do with why a DVD on interlaced or Progressive setting may seem similar.

;x(
thanks
now i was not aware that satelite has as much issues with bandwidth as cable
is there any truth to the assumption satelite has less issues in that regard

is this all suggesting that an antena will result in the best hd source for the time being?

[aud19]

Aye! I forgot about the 30fps/60fps (That's what I get for trying to discuss this stuff while SMOKING busy at work ops: )

I still don't see that there's be a world of difference between 1080i / 1080p when properly de-interlaced, especially at normal viewing distances. A difference sure maybe, but not night and day. Hopefully I'll see something to prove me wrong

[stewfoo]

My dealer is trying to talk me into a Key digital scaler. He says to cancel my hi-def subscription on Directv and just upscale. Anybody know anything about this brand and his thoughts on the matter?
Stew

[Andrew M Ward]

;x(
thanks
now i was not aware that satelite has as much issues with bandwidth as cable
is there any truth to the assumption satelite has less issues in that regard

is this all suggesting that an antena will result in the best hd source for the time being?

This may take a while, stay with me (no nodding off)

All video distribution is basically satellite distribution, so satellite companies (for example DirecTV) have the same kinds of issues as CATV guys (for example Comcast) ... Notice I said same kinds, but not exactly the same..

I'm Drinking a bottle of Sake so this could get long winded...

Here's the example:
Say you're watching a live basketball game in Hi-Def on Comcast. So how does Comcast get that game queued up to distribute it live

(good question, I'm glad you asked)

There is a myriad of cameras filming the game and dumping video into the main control room (on site) ~ in the control room all the video switching and audio mixing is done (live ((very pressure packed)) also all the National advertising is add-inserted there (Budweiser Chevrolet Etc.) notice I said National (this comes into play later) that live game signal is mixed / switched / add inserted and then sent to a Sat-Truck (on site) or it's sent to the local affiliate (say the ABC main facility in that town, say Boston) so the main facility or the sat truck receives the signal fully loaded with audio and National advertisements and they then compresses it and send it up to a geosynchronous orbiting satellite with frequency bandwidth assigned to receive that game signal from that spot at that time (a whole nother nightmare).

Now we all know a Satellite is basically just a big mirror (kind of) and so it sends that game (bounced) back down, but like a giant flashlight with dozens of tiny mirrors pointed all over, the satellite sends the signal all over north America, like a big flashlight 25 miles up shining over the whole USA. (neat-o)

there's more (no sleeping)

So in every city across the land there is a cable company, with a building called a Headend facility, we also call it a satellite farm, you notice them they have lots of big 12 foot and 25 foot dishes pointing up all over the place) in this building the cable company will receive that game information from the satellite and compress it further (nice) so they can squeeze it down the pipe (cable wire) more efficiently. As they receive the signal they use digital markers to do local add-insertion. So along side the regular National Miller Beer add there is left 28 seconds of blank space for a local add-insert. This whole thing is a complex process but basically that’s the idea, thus you can see local adds on a Nationally televised game.

Back to business

So this signal is being compressed again at the local cable company Headend facility and then sent down the pipe (cable network) to the end user (you) via a technology called QAM (Quadrature amplitude modulation) it travels over a cable network architecture called DOCSIS developed by Cisco it (DOCSIS) basically stands for Data Over Cable. Now your cable company set-top-box has a cable modem (which stands for Modulate / demodulate, hence Mo-Dem) it’s converting that highly compressed signal from QAM to analog component video or Streaming digital or HDMI...

So now I know your next question is “Hey Andrew, so how’s DirecTV different?” Well that’s a good question.

You know the part way back there where I said the live game feed is then sent up to a satellite or the local TV affiliate. Okay, after that happens (either way) the signal is then sent to a satellite up there and then shined back down like a flashlight hitting the entire USA. Well the DirecTV terrestrial station (down here on earth) pick up that game signal processes it, insets DirecTV adds over the local add-spots and sends it back up to their DirecTV satellite. The very same satellite your little 18 inch dish is pointed at. You little dish receives that signal and decompresses it into Hi-def TV.

The main difference between Cable and Satellite is that the satellite company has a chance to keep the game (during it’s entire distribution process) in the digital domain, right up until you decompress it at the satellite set-top-box.

And there you have it

:Z

[Lex]

That was interesting Andrew. thanks for sharing that inside view.

[peterS]

Aye! I forgot about the 30fps/60fps (That's what I get for trying to discuss this stuff while SMOKING busy at work ops: )

I still don't see that there's be a world of difference between 1080i / 1080p when properly de-interlaced, especially at normal viewing distances. A difference sure maybe, but not night and day. Hopefully I'll see something to prove me wrong

see a harddrive hooked up to the sxrd or mitsubishi 8O

[peterS]

The main difference between Cable and Satellite is that the satellite company has a chance to keep the game (during it’s entire distribution process) in the digital domain, right up until you decompress it at the satellite set-top-box.

And there you have it

:Z

not sure i followed this statement... it is clear how cable is more compressied but not at which point it reverts back to analouge (?)

[Andrew M Ward]

see a harddrive hooked up to the sxrd or mitsubishi 8O

Yes,
Thank you, that is what 1080p looks like (it's so detailed it's creepy)

[Andrew M Ward]

not sure i followed this statement... it is clear how cable is more compressied but not at which point it reverts back to analouge (?)

Good observation,
the cable set-top-box decompression process is masterful, so what they deliver is actually a very nice picture. (Nothing like the master signal, but definitely very nice)

The satellite guys only advantage is one less D to A conversion process and one less passing through the distribution network of cable wires, extending sometimes miles from the Headend facility to the end user.

Other than that they are basically up against the same obstacles but some day (who knows when) we’ll see true 1080p in all it’s glory distributed through any common system of multi-user interfaces (such as CATV or SATV...

Two cents

[Shane Martin]

is this all suggesting that an antena will result in the best hd source for the time being?

From what I've seen, yes.

The Classe' piece is actually 1080p was 1080p the day it shipped (these are facts) it can only hadshake with a few device out there at 1080p because the display mfgr's are behind the curve on delivery.

Regardless there are no 1080P dvds to play in it. It's basically an upscaling player because the native 1080P stuff(hd dvd/blu ray) won't play on it. With HD players coming in the next 2 months, it's a boat anchor unless you plan on staying with dvd for a good while. It still won't compare straight up to an HD DVD/Blu Ray 1080P player with 1080P material.

Granted right now for a RPTV set, there are only 1 set capable of seeing it via HDMI but I suspect we'll see that change this year. Then again one could just buy a Sony Ruby or one of the new 1080P DLP PJ's coming out but those are 2x the money than the current HP 1080P HDMI DLP.

[aud19]

see a harddrive hooked up to the sxrd or mitsubishi 8O

And this is my point. The SXRD doesn't accept 1080p so it's de-interlacing a 1080i signal and displaying it at 1080p. EXACTLY my point.

[peterS]

And this is my point. The SXRD doesn't accept 1080p so it's de-interlacing a 1080i signal and displaying it at 1080p. EXACTLY my point.

no it isnt that is what you fail to see
the hard drive is hooked up through firewire
it is the only way the sxrd and mitsu recieve native 1080p- useless beyond demo perposes because consumer 1080p will be transmited via hdmi IF manufacturers choose to manufacture discs at such high res
now if you wanna be the first to own one be my guest- but my guess is that its still atleast 3-5 yrs off if and when it becomes common place

[peterS]

Aye! I forgot about the 30fps/60fps (That's what I get for trying to discuss this stuff while SMOKING busy at work ops: )

I still don't see that there's be a world of difference between 1080i / 1080p when properly de-interlaced, especially at normal viewing distances. A difference sure maybe, but not night and day. Hopefully I'll see something to prove me wrong

the frames per second has nothing to do with it. 1080i has more pixels at a given moment, period
pixels arnt everything
couldnt quote you on exactly why 720p consumes more bandwidth but i can tell you it looks better... noticably so

why you fail to believe that native 1080p looks better than upscalled 1080i is beyond me :scratchhead:

[Andrew M Ward]

Dude, get a clue...

Aud19,
you could not be more wrong more times than you have been on this email string, it's astounding to watch...

I'm stunned you're a "moderator"

Please go back and read where basically everybody has corrected you (over and over again)

[Andrew M Ward]

the frames per second has nothing to do with it. 1080i has more pixels at a given moment, period
pixels arnt everything
couldnt quote you on exactly why 720p consumes more bandwidth but i can tell you it looks better... noticably so

why you fail to believe that native 1080p looks better than upscalled 1080i is beyond me :scratchhead:

both wrong!

pixels are how a display device generates an image, it's got nothing to do with this topic, Hi-def camers don't care how many pixels a plasma has.

fixed pixels are built into the display frame

the image being sent to the display devise has no idea how many pixels that TV has... for examplr a 480 i signal ona 768 screen will use all 768 fixed pixel lines... a 1080p image will also... it's not the pixels, the pixels are only a limiting factor on display devices with less that 1080 X 1920

[Andrew M Ward]

From what I've seen, yes.

Regardless there are no 1080P dvds to play in it. It's basically an upscaling player because the native 1080P stuff(hd dvd/blu ray) won't play on it. With HD players coming in the next 2 months, it's a boat anchor unless you plan on staying with dvd for a good while. It still won't compare straight up to an HD DVD/Blu Ray 1080P player with 1080P material.

Granted right now for a RPTV set, there are only 1 set capable of seeing it via HDMI but I suspect we'll see that change this year. Then again one could just buy a Sony Ruby or one of the new 1080P DLP PJ's coming out but those are 2x the money than the current HP 1080P HDMI DLP.

Yes it's a DVD player with the only 1080p scaler built in... we get that part (presumably)

So you've listened to this "boat anchor"?

it's arguably the best sounding CD player ever made, oh and by the way it's the best looking DVD player ever made... and it costs 1/2 what the Linn and Meridian pieces cost... Hmmmm

This boat anchor is out selling both of those pieces combined... performance sells, and the CDP-300 has almost no competition in either field (sound or vision)

but I appreciate your innocence and naiveté

[Chris D]

Uhhhh.... ???

:wtf:

[peterS]

both wrong!

pixels are how a display device generates an image, it's got nothing to do with this topic, Hi-def camers don't care how many pixels a plasma has.

fixed pixels are built into the display frame

the image being sent to the display devise has no idea how many pixels that TV has... for examplr a 480 i signal ona 768 screen will use all 768 fixed pixel lines... a 1080p image will also... it's not the pixels, the pixels are only a limiting factor on display devices with less that 1080 X 1920

lol dont know where i even made a statemnt that was wrong or how yours remotely addresses it :W

[peterS]

Uhhhh.... ???

:wtf:

my guess is a drunken post :B

[aud19]

Aud19,
you could not be more wrong more times than you have been on this email string, it's astounding to watch...

I'm stunned you're a "moderator"

Please go back and read where basically everybody has corrected you (over and over again)

Well quite frankly, this is what these forums are for. To help people educate themselves and eachother about the different facets of this hobby we all enjoy.

As such and as moderator of this section I will remind you to keep the discussion civil and helpful. You're straying from that and I hope to not have to "moderate" further than this

Thank you.

Jason

[Andrew M Ward]

Note:

All my posts are "Drunken Posts"





(seriously)

[stewfoo]

Andrew, I did read your "I'm drinkin'" disclosure before your posts. You are funnier than hell even if you dont mean to be. hahha
Stew