Filling a missing niche in accomplished designs

[Hdale85]

Nice. How do big brands get such high sensitivity? Ok I just looked and my Klipsch speakers are rated 97dB at 2.83V. I would guess that equates to probably something like 95dB at 1w 1m.

[Jed]

Nice. How do big brands get such high sensitivity? Ok I just looked and my Klipsch speakers are rated 97dB at 2.83V. I would guess that equates to probably something like 95dB at 1w 1m.

One way is they lie about it or give the NonBSC rating. Seriously, it seems when stereophile does their tests on loudspeakers, the manufacturers always exaggerate the sensitivity. Not saying Klipsch does this because they use horns and light paper cones to get the sensitivity up, but one should always take the manufacturer's rated sensitivities with a grain of salt, IMO. Same goes for some drivers unfortunately.

[nayr]

I kinda want to shoot myself for not looking at this closer when it was first suggested by nayr.

8) I was just looking for ways to keep it as slim as possible. 6.5" or 7" drivers start to push it into the area taken by other designs. Hopefully they don't need a huge volume!

[Hdale85]

Well actually they use metallic ceramic speaker cones... for the mids at least.

[PoorboyMike]

It doesn't look like these need much volume at all sealed. I haven't messed around with ported yet though.

For a .7 QTC, only about 5L per driver.

What would be an optimal QTC to shoot for boss? :B

[Jed]

It doesn't look like these need much volume at all sealed. I haven't messed around with ported yet though.

For a .7 QTC, only about 5L per driver.

What would be an optimal QTC to shoot for boss? :B

I'd like to experiment with a slightly oversized ported box actually. Oversized means only 22L for all 4! Could try the JonMarsh downfiring port technique as well. I'll have to draw something up for a prototype.

Guys, PoorboyMike will be helping me out with the MTMWWWW design and others. He'll be building the MTMWWWW along with me, so as I tune the crossover, we'll have an extra set of ears to critique the various crossover phases. This will be a great help and I really appreciate it Mike!

As Mike said, we may have a giant killer in an extra slim cabinet.

I've thought about the possibly of just doing a 2 box setup with the MTM section sitting on top of the WWWW section. That way, these could be fully upgradeable, especially if someone wants to start with the MTMs, they could just then add the bass section of the 3-way. I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks,

Jed

[PoorboyMike]

I really like the idea of a 2 piece set up. That way guys (and gals) that couldn't afford to go all out in the beginning, could upgrade to the "giant killer" any time down the road.

I also like the idea of porting the bass section. How do you feel about porting them below the drivers fs, like Jon likes to do? Maybe somewhere in the mid to upper 30s? Lower 30s? Upper 20s? :B

Also, does anyone have a good source for whispermat? Jon and Zaph really seem to like it, but they don't seem to want to give up their source. :P If it's cheaper than the PE sonic barrier, I would prefer to go with that.

I wonder how many of those TB subs PE will let me buy before the price goes back up? :B

[---k---]

http://www.silentsource.com/barriers-whispermat.html

[sprint_9]

I think that the dual box idea would be cool.

I plan on designing something so I can have an active 12 inch HF sub on each side, with the dual box design like you are proposing it would make life alot easier for me to put together such a system if the MTM sections will match up low enough to cross with a sub

[PoorboyMike]

http://www.silentsource.com/barriers-whispermat.html

Thanks Ryan. Not really a big difference in price once you factor in shipping.

[Johnloudb]

And you will be happy to know it'll work with your 10watt amp with a system SPL around 88db with 1 watt including baffle step.

Yes, 10W might just do it.

1 more vote a two box design, I'll probably add another amp for the bass section.

I'm very interested in your reports on how these sound. I'd bet they have a very different sonic presentation, compared to typical larger woofer formats.

[Jed]

Well- don't mean to disappoint, but the skinniest I could make the bass section if doing a 2 box design would be 6.75" when using the Tang Band W5-876SD. So that is 3/4" greater than the top section of the 2 ways. Wouldn't look right in my opinion.

So- I'm going to go ahead and design it as a one box MTMWWWW to keep it as streamlined as possible.

Nothing stopping folks from making their own bass bins for the MTMs or MTs or Fullrange designs. Remember they will go low enough to cross to a sub anyhow, the MTMWWWW will be designed to fill a slightly different niche. That is, someone looking for the full deal in a narrow package.

I'm also having second thoughts about the downfiring port for these. Might just do a slot close to the floor because I really don't want to put such a skinny design up on spikes, and I'm not sure a large base would look right either. I'm also not really planning a Non-Baffle Step version for this 3-way because I picture these more as Mains that will be 2 feet away from a wall.

So those are my thoughts as of now. Changed a bit from oh, about 15 minutes ago.

Part of that is after I took a look at potential drawings of the designs and looked at the flange diameter of the W5 subs.

[PoorboyMike]

Not a big deal Jed, I was planning on building mine a tower anyway.

I might even experiment with an open back, like the Statements. Who knows! :E

[Jed]

Not a big deal Jed, I was planning on building mine a tower anyway.

I might even experiment with an open back, like the Statements. Who knows! :E

Hmmmmmmmmm.....open back I don't think Jim would mind.

One issue with that might be the fact that our design will be less deep, thus creating a shorter path length for the mids which = a steeper rolloff below 300hz. Could work out as an advantange or as a problem, would have to build it and see. If that is the direction you want to go, let me know and I'll start drawing something up.

[Hdale85]

I think all contained in one is better. I've never really liked the split designs too much. Unless they look like they aren't split.

[PoorboyMike]

Hey Jed, your PM box needs the trash taken out!

According to PE, you should get the parts Friday. You sure a 2" port is big enough for these though? I have a couple of 3" sitting around if that's the case.

Now I need to sell this sub I have here and get my own drivers ordered. :T

[Jed]

Hey Jed, your PM box needs the trash taken out!

According to PE, you should get the parts Friday. You sure a 2" port is big enough for these though? I have a couple of 3" sitting around if that's the case.

Now I need to sell this sub I have here and get my own drivers ordered. :T

If the 2" is too small, I've got a 3" here at home I could try, or I might try a slot port again to save space. I'm not sure yet.

Also, my pm box is cleaned up now.

[Jed]

Updated the drawings, but I'm sure after I start cutting the holes the layout will change further. In the MTM design with the Vifa, I moved the woofers a bit closer together to minimize vertical lobing issues and I also designed the MTMWWWW box as you can see. Also, I added a few braces here and there to stiffin the boxes up a bit. May go overkill on the MT and MTMs with an additional 1/2" on the front baffles. Gotta get more wood.

I'm just exhausted because I decided [wife decided ] to expand our narrow driveway with a gravel base. Moving about 18 tons of earth/gravel is not fun- well at least the back is still ok. Alright, back to speaker planning.


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[kingpin]

Jed.

Just thought I would say that it is an awfully nice thing you are doing for people here. You are joining an elite club here and I hope you have fun while you are doing this.

:T :T :T :T :T :T :T :T :T

Mike

[Jed]

Jed.

Just thought I would say that it is an awfully nice thing you are doing for people here. You are joining an elite club here and I hope you have fun while you are doing this.

Mike

Thanks Mike,

Really enjoy your threads as well! In fact, I'm reminded of your speaker whenever I see this (see attached).

Jed

[nayr]

Looking damn fine. That MT with the CD3 is a design I've been looking for for a while. Like the slot loaded port too. No MTMWWWW design with the CD3?

[PoorboyMike]

Looking good Jed!

Updated the drawings, but I'm sure after I start cutting the holes the layout will change further. In the MTM design with the Vifa, I moved the woofers a bit closer together to minimize vertical lobing issues and I also designed the MTMWWWW box as you can see. Also, I added a few braces here and there to stiffin the boxes up a bit. May go overkill on the MT and MTMs with an additional 1/2" on the front baffles. Gotta get more wood.

I'm just exhausted because I decided [wife decided ] to expand our narrow driveway with a gravel base. Moving about 18 tons of earth/gravel is not fun- well at least the back is still ok. Alright, back to speaker planning.

[Jed]

Looking damn fine. That MT with the CD3 is a design I've been looking for for a while. Like the slot loaded port too. No MTMWWWW design with the CD3?

Thanks nayr.

I'm hoping that one could use the HP section of the MTM CD3.0 crossover with a different Lpad, if someone wanted to do the MTMWWWW with the ribbon tweeter. Only time will tell. Never heard the Founteks, so I don't know how they will compare to the D26 Neo tweeter.

By the way, I think these speakers will need a name soon to make it easier to make references to any particular design.

When I save the files, I've been referring to them as "lineup" . . .

Not an exactly unique name but we could do some designation for each model like this. The fullrange could be Lineup 4F, the Lineup MT with Fountek could be Lineup 4R, the Lineup MTM with Fountek could be called, Lineup 44R where R stands for ribbon and 4 stands for the 4" midwoofer/s. The Lineup with Vifa could be called Lineup 4D, the MTM- Lineup 44D, and the MTMWWWW could be Lineup Max, with a ribbon Lineup MaxR.

[Johnloudb]

By the way, I think these speakers will need a name soon to make it easier to make references to any particular design.

When I save the files, I've been referring to them as "lineup" . . .

Not an exactly unique name but we could do some designation for each model like this. The fullrange could be Lineup F4, the Lineup MT with Fountek could be Lineup 4R, the Lineup MTM with Fountek could be called, Lineup 4R4 where R stands for ribbon and 4 stands for the 4" midwoofer. The Lineup with Vifa could be called Lineup 4V, the MTM- Lineup 4V4, and the MTMWWWW could be Lineup Max, with a ribbon Lineup MaxR.

Are you asking for more suggestions?

Linemonitor? Linedrive? Driveline? :E

Looking good Jed! Get some rest. :Z

[cobbpa]

I kinda like that naming scheme, but with small suggestions: instead of 4V4 or 4R4, I personally like 44V (or 44 D for dome, or S for silk?) and 44R.

Or maybe the skinny, thin, squatty, and fat (MTMWWWW, MTM, MT, and M, respectively).

Just ideas, but regardless, I like where this thread is going!

[Jed]

I kinda like that naming scheme, but with small suggestions: instead of 4V4 or 4R4, I personally like 44V (or 44 D for dome, or S for silk?) and 44R.

Or maybe the skinny, thin, squatty, and fat (MTMWWWW, MTM, MT, and M, respectively).

Just ideas, but regardless, I like where this thread is going!

Makes sense Cobbpa! I'll update the names.

[JonP]

Thanks Ryan. Not really a big difference in price once you factor in shipping.

The guy at Whispermat that I talked to suggested buying in the right volume so you get the best shipping vs weight and size ratios... the stuff comes 54" wide, and I would have bought just enough for the Modula MT's, but it would have been about equal for shipping and whispermat.. I didn't pay that much more shipping to buy 2-3 times as much, now I have stock for a future project or two...

Inquire about how fast the shipping goes up and find an optimum point. Then you too can be in the "I bought HOW MUCH Whispermat??" club.... :W

[Jed]

Box construction for Lineup 4F, 4D, and 4R began. Dampening materials arrive tomorrow and it will find a home in some boxes that patiently await.

I may screw the sides on so I can modify the port length a bit. Could use gasket tape to get a good air tight fit, and then glue later on after I take some measurements to verify the port tuning is correct.

Also, I returned one of the W4s to parts express. It arrived with a tiny dent in the cone. As some have mentioned, the W4s have razor thin titanium cones. I'm suprised they don't come with a mesh grill like Accuton.

Image not available

I should be ready to take measurements this Saturday. :P

[Hdale85]

Those enclosures sure look small. How thick is that mdf? 1/2"? These would make for a nice first time veneer job. For someone that has never veneer'd before that is. Which I have not.

[Jed]

How thick is that mdf?

All the designs use 3/4" MDF. The Lineup Max will have a double thick front baffle.

[Hdale85]

Could do a TL for the big MTMWWWW.

[Jed]

Could do a TL for the big MTMWWWW.

Yeah, but I'm going to do that little trick Jon does with a tuning that is close to transmission line characteristics, yet in a normal low tuned ported box loaded on a floor boundary.

[Hdale85]

So how do you l like the build of the W4? I'd love to see one in person. May have to order a few for whatever speaker I decide to build. Right now its either these or The Statements. I really want a ribbon design

[Jed]

So how do you l like the build of the W4?

:5: :amen: :drool:

The pics don't do them justice.

[Hdale85]

I should order one and build a frame for it and mount it on the wall But then I'd be upset about not actually using it. You setting up for measurments for the MT? Or you working on the MTM first?

[Jed]

I'll be developing the Lineup 4F, 4D, then 4R. In other words, Fullrange, MT dome, then MT Ribbon is the order in which I'll work on it. If you want to buy a pair of W4s, it would be helpful to have another set of ears critique the crossovers before the design is finalized.

[Hdale85]

Hmm have to figure out how I'm going to build the enclosures then but it could be possible .

[Sefferdog]

I'll be developing the Lineup 4F, 4D, then 4R. In other words, Fullrange, MT dome, then MT Ribbon is the order in which I'll work on it. If you want to buy a pair of W4s, it would be helpful to have another set of ears critique the crossovers before the design is finalized.

I am following this with much interest. I have some w4's, D26's, and some Fountek tweets laying around for the Mini Statement project. In the interim I will probably be building the three W4 projects you have going here to kill the time. Are your enclosure designs final, or are they still up for tweaking? :T

[Jed]

I am following this with much interest. I have some w4's, D26's, and some Fountek tweets laying around for the Mini Statement project. In the interim I will probably be building the three W4 projects you have going here to kill the time. Are your enclosure designs final, or are they still up for tweaking? :T

Yes, the box designs are not finished yet. I have to check the port tunings to make sure they are correct and sound good with all the parts installed. Also, I originally was going to do the Zaph mounting technique for the Vifa tweeter, but decided against it because of the way I built the boxes with the front baffle non-removeable. I should have some rough measurements of the Lineup 4F real soon to verify the port tuning, at which point I'll finalize the MT box. Look for it in the next couple days. I'm planning on changing the position of the woofer in the fullrange box as well so I just can add a tweeter later on for the Lineup 4D without having to resort to buidling more test boxes.

[PoorboyMike]

Wow Jed, you don't mess around do you!

I have quite a pile of scrap 3/4 mdf laying around the shop. Maybe I'll throw together a couple for the MT when I get a chance. Have to go to Ohio this weekend to visit my sister-in-law though. :M

[opt-e]

Yeah, I see you're making good progress. I'll be building at least one of these designs for a nice set of computer speakers sometime in the near future. We're currently in the process of selling our house and moving to a new place. With the amount of stuff we have to pack I don't need more boxes lying around so I'm holding off on buying any parts until after we've moved. I am eagerly following this thread though.

[Jed]

Made more progress with the MTMs while I was waiting for the UPS truck to bring the 8 TB 5" subs and dampening materials. I've got another order of stuff to try coming in Monday, so I might wait a bit to figure out crossover layout and specifically, how I'll damp these little cabinets.

Image not available

[PoorboyMike]

How do those little subs look Jed? Do they appear to be a high quality driver?

We don't want anything el'cheapo looking hanging on the front of the Maxxs!

[Jed]

How do those little subs look Jed? Do they appear to be a high quality driver?

We don't want anything el'cheapo looking hanging on the front of the Maxxs!

Mike, they look good because TB bends the stamped frames to make them look like cast frames. Pretty big magnet structure too. For the price, I'm not sure there is anything out there that will fit this application as well.

[Scooter]

Isn't the dome tweeter discontinued?

I'm somewhat puzzled by the fact that everybody brews new designs with the Vifa D26NC55 dome tweeter. At least from what I can find the tweeter is discontinued by the manufacturer and no more deliverable by the dealers (at least here in Europe). Do you guys know something that I don't know? Granted it's a nice tweeter, but were do we get it from?

Somewhat puzzled

Alexander