Filling a missing niche in accomplished designs

[PPCFlyer]

Any chance it will be < or = 9.5" deep?

My center channel is going to sit on my mantle, under a plasma TV, so I don't have a lot of depth to use.


Kendall

[Jed]

I'll shoot for 9.5" depth, and see what I come up with. It might have to be a few inches wider, but we'll see.

Jed

[Jed]

I spent a good portion of the afternoon drawing up a plan that would have a 9.5" depth, and a front firing port. It's a bit difficult creating a speaker this small with a chamber for the midrange and connecting the volume for both woofers. I think I managed ok though. I could have had a separate chamber for each driver, but the port would have ended up too long to hit the 43hz tuning frequency. In the end this should work well. I'll try to get the cabinet built this week and get some measurements. My simulations of this speaker look promising.

Image not available

[Hdale85]

So the port width is not as tall as the cabinet height? Looks interesting though.

[Jed]

So the port width is not as tall as the cabinet height? Looks interesting though.

Correct. If it was the full height, it would have to be like 12" long to get down to 40-43hz. I'm contemplating having the port fire out the back for my own purposes, but people can do it either way. Especially if it is going on a mantel or in an entertainment unit.

We'll have to decide how much BSC people will need, or what will sound right in a real environment.

Jed

[Hdale85]

What about if we just did a round port? Say 3" or something. Simaler to the Maxx towers.

[Jed]

What about if we just did a round port? Say 3" or something. Simaler to the Maxx towers.

It would be very long if using a 3" port (17" long). A 2" flared might work but where to put it in the cabinet so it is 2" away from side walls, drivers, etc; given the desired 7" length for the proper tuning.

[Hdale85]

Would a side mounted port be horrible? :B I don't know. Might have to just do what your saying with the rear mounted vent.

[Jed]

Would a side mounted port be horrible? :B I don't know. Might have to just do what your saying with the rear mounted vent.

The difficulty really is getting a very low port tuning in .5ft3. Flared ports look cool, but in this case I'm having a hard time thinking of an alternative for the function/space saving features of a slot port. I think the rear mounted port will clean up the front aesthetics nicely.

By the way guys, I'm thinking of doing a "mini" Lineup Maxx TMWW using the same drivers as the center for matching rear channels. What do you think? It modeled so nicely I feel like I have to give it a try. I'm sure the D44 or D4 would be adequate, but . . .I can't help myself and with my wife's rehearsal schedule (she a teacher too, but acts in a local theatre company for fun), I'm going to need something to do when I get home (besides read).

Jed

[Hdale85]

You seem to be having too much fun with these. The small TMWW sounds very interesting to me though and has a very good chance and ending up in my system As for the port I really don't need an enclosure as shallow as 9.5" so bigger would be ok. Just keep that design for the guys that need a shallow one. I don't know just an idea. I know I think that small port on the front would look ugly to me

[Hdale85]

Ok well I FINALLY got my internet back on. Walked in tonight and turned the modem on and it worked I about crapped my self. So here is a pic of the enclosures kind of dry fitted next to my RF-62's.



Will probably be some sort of base with spikes or something. Not sure trying to think up something original. But if I get these done before I move chances are they will be bare and just like that until I get settled in the new place.

[PoorboyMike]

The difficulty really is getting a very low port tuning in .5ft3. Flared ports look cool, but in this case I'm having a hard time thinking of an alternative for the function/space saving features of a slot port. I think the rear mounted port will clean up the front aesthetics nicely.

By the way guys, I'm thinking of doing a "mini" Lineup Maxx TMWW using the same drivers as the center for matching rear channels. What do you think? It modeled so nicely I feel like I have to give it a try. I'm sure the D44 or D4 would be adequate, but . . .I can't help myself and with my wife's rehearsal schedule (she a teacher too, but acts in a local theatre company for fun), I'm going to need something to do when I get home (besides read).

Jed

I don't think we need to stick with a 9.5" depth on the cc. So far it seems like that is only what one guy needs, and for that he can just as easily do a custom design to meet his needs. My vote goes for an optimal cabinet size for people that want the best sound possible out of this design. :T It wouldn't be that hard to change the size and tuning around a little to accomodate different needs, even if it results in a slight decrease in performance.

I also like the idea of the "Mini Maxx". Having multiple options is a good thing. I will eventually build all of these so what's one more going to hurt. :B

[Brian Walter]

CC Woofers

I know it's probably in this thread somewhere, but what woofers are you using with the CC?

[PPCFlyer]

So far it seems like that is only what one guy needs, and for that he can just as easily do a custom design to meet his needs.

I also like the idea of the "Mini Maxx". :B

Ditto. Please don't compromise this design because of my limitation. I too think that a "Mini Maxx" may work well in a LCR setup.


Kendall

[Hdale85]

Well the Mini Maxx was sort of thought up for a full range surround :B. The woofers that will be used on the center is the same that are used on the Maxx towers.

[Jed]

Ditto. Please don't compromise this design because of my limitation. I too think that a "Mini Maxx" may work well in a LCR setup.


Kendall

It really wasn't a compromise, just a design constraint that was rectified with a slightly wider speaker cabinet. The only limitation I can see is the smallish sealed chamber for the midrange. As for port tuning, even if I enlarge the cabinet a bit, and that isn't that necessary because each W5 only needs around 7-8 Liters anyway, we still have the issue of port placement, if using a larger diameter port.

I think I might prototype the center given the design I posted earlier and see how it sounds with the smaller midrange enclosure- if it sounds a lot more congested than the larger volume devoted for the W4 (like the D4), then I'll make some changes. I'll give it some thought and look at the design a bit more tonight before I glue everything up that I cut for the design.

[PPCFlyer]

I agree and wish I could use floor standing speakers in my living room, but the WAF won't allow it. So using 3 of the MiniMaxx in a LCR, would work well for me. I'll use a D4 for surrounds.

Kendall

[Hdale85]

The Mini Maxx won't really be good for a center. If your thinking of laying it on its side anyways. You'd have to do the Maxx Center and 2 Mini Maxx's probably. The Mini Maxx's would be a TMWW and the center is a WMTW.

I'm either going to do 6.1 with a front center and rear center and the mini maxx's as the rears. Or 7.1 with 4 sets of Mini Maxx's and the Maxx towers and Maxx center. Getting expensive though. I could do the D4's and Maxx mini's as the rears. Like the ones that get used more I would use the Mini's and the others the D4's.

[gmikol]

Mini-Maxx in a 0.75 cu. ft. PE pre-fab enclosure???

--Greg

[Jed]

Mini-Maxx in a 0.75 cu. ft. PE pre-fab enclosure???

--Greg

I was thinking something more like this:

Image not available

For anyone on more of a budget, this should work really nice for mains and match perfectly with the center. In fact, it was the modeling of the CC that inspired me to want to build it, among other things. It should have a crossover nearly identical so it simplifies things a bit, even though it is a 3-way. Crossover points are around 250hz and 2.4k.

Jed

[PPCFlyer]

The Mini Maxx won't really be good for a center. If your thinking of laying it on its side anyways. You'd have to do the Maxx Center and 2 Mini Maxx's probably. The Mini Maxx's would be a TMWW and the center is a WMTW.

What about 3 Maxx Centers in an LCR setup?

[Jed]

What about 3 Maxx Centers in an LCR setup?

That could work too, I'll just have to test it when it is vertical to make sure. It's not going to happen overnight or anything but I'll keep it in mind. I should have the Maxx Center ready to test this weekend.

Jed

[PPCFlyer]

That could work too, I'll just have to test it when it is vertical to make sure.

Any reason why I couldn't leave them laying down? My mantel is flanked by book cases, and if I left the speakers lying down, the first shelf could be lower.

Kendall

[Jed]

Any reason why I couldn't leave them laying down? My mantel is flanked by book cases, and if I left the speakers lying down, the first shelf could be lower.

Kendall

I just assumed you'd want it vertical, but yeah, that would work out great leaving them horizontal.

Jed

[Hdale85]

Of course if your sticking them on shelves or in a shelving unit you may want a version with little or no BSC.

[MuaDibb]

Posted by Jed:

Based on my simulations, (4) woofers in series-parallel work well with (2) W4s wired in parallel. (2) W5 woofers in series will work well with a single W4.

That said, I don't think (4) W4 woofers in series-parallel will work well with a single W4. The W4 isn't efficient enough.

Take this with a grain of salt, I'm just kind of wondering out loud after reading some of the comments for a Maxx center, and comments about the problems of laying an mtm over on its side.

Has anyone, commercial or otherwise done a center channel with an mtm in a vertical configuration?
M
WWTWW
M


It looks like if you could live with a 13" tall center channel it could be done. :E

Edit: I can't get the M's to center above and below the T, but you get the idea, I hope.

[Johnloudb]

Phono

I have a Thorens TD125 MKII (new in 1975), that I'm restoring. It needs a new cartridge, but I have no clue as how to set it up. There's Micheal Fremer's DVD, but I'd prefer a book on the subject. It also has a old Rabco tonearm (linear tracking). Any, analog lovers on here?

[Ray Collins]

If you don't have any equipment to measure your set up it still can be done but it will be a little course.

Tracking weight--Set your arm with the cartridge installed so that it is perfectly balanced and hovers in a level mode with the arm parallel to the platter. Add weight according to your cartridge manufacturer's suggested tracking weight.

Alignment--Place an small mirror ( 1"x2" or so) on your turntable platter and place the stylus in the center of it. Sight from the front and side and adjust to establish perpendicular contact with the mirror.

Rake--You will have to eyeball this and use shims as needed. Your cartridge manufacturer will give you guidance.

Skate--rely on your turntable adjustment and your ear.

Hope this helps. It should get you in the ball park until you purchase the needed equipment to dial-in everything.

Ray

[Hdale85]

13" is only about 4 inches taller then my current RC-62 center. :B

[Jed]

13" is only about 4 inches taller then my current RC-62 center. :B

These are all creative ideas guys.

I'm just wishing a 6" aurasound sub would come out. How cool would that be! Anyway, don't mean to get off topic.

One thing I was wondering, how big of a deal is it to have center channel, mains, and surrounds with slightly different effeciencies? Should one choose the same configuration of drivers all around?

The way I understand it is the mains are the power house, the center for voice localization, and the surrounds for that you are there feeling. Let me know what your experiences have been.

Jed

[Johnloudb]

If you don't have any equipment to measure your set up it still can be done but it will be a little course.

Tracking weight--Set your arm with the cartridge installed so that it is perfectly balanced and hovers in a level mode with the arm parallel to the platter. Add weight according to your cartridge manufacturer's suggested tracking weight.

Alignment--Place an small mirror ( 1"x2" or so) on your turntable platter and place the stylus in the center of it. Sight from the front and side and adjust to establish perpendicular contact with the mirror.

Rake--You will have to eyeball this and use shims as needed. Your cartridge manufacturer will give you guidance.

Skate--rely on your turntable adjustment and your ear.

Hope this helps. It should get you in the ball park until you purchase the needed equipment to dial-in everything.

Ray

Thanks, I understood about 1/2 of that. It's a good start. I plan on getting a Wally Tractor Universal protractor or the like. The problem I see is that it's designed for specific tonearms, with the Rabco likely not included. Maybe I just need to the arms tracking weight like you say.

Well, got more research to do.

Thanks again.

[Jim Holtz]

These are all creative ideas guys.

I'm just wishing a 6" aurasound sub would come out. How cool would that be! Anyway, don't mean to get off topic.

One thing I was wondering, how big of a deal is it to have center channel, mains, and surrounds with slightly different effeciencies? Should one choose the same configuration of drivers all around?

The way I understand it is the mains are the power house, the center for voice localization, and the surrounds for that you are there feeling. Let me know what your experiences have been.

Jed

Hi Jed,

In a surround sound 5.1 DD system, the center will carry up to 70% of the sound in addition to localizing the sound to the screen.. The mains are the powerhouses but in the respect that they become effects channels during movies. 5.1 music is different and often doesn't use the center channel.

I like a W-M/T-W format for the center with deep enough bass that it can be run in large mode rather then small. There is an amazing amount of bass coming from the center channel as well as the mains and sub. Actually, I run all of my speakers as large.

There has been a lot of discussion about different configurations for the center. I think it's a lot about "bling" rather than increased performance. If the center can exceed 105 DB and has bass that extends below 50 Hz. in the W-M/T-W format, you'll have an exceptional center with ultra clear dialogue.

My $.02 worth

Jim

[Jed]

Thanks Jim! That about sums it up I would say. Sounds like a 3-way Maxx or Maxx mini rear channel is overkill unless one is going with 5.1 music?

Jed

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jim! That about sums it up I would say. Sounds like a 3-way Maxx or Maxx mini rear channel is overkill unless one is going with 5.1 music?

Jed

Hi Jed,

Not over kill necessarily for movies. Master and Commander for example has a cannon shot go off in the rear channels that can be felt if you have full range speakers for the rear or a rear sub. It's quite an experience to be buffeted by bass from behind you.

Many movies of course have little sound coming from the rear beyond atmospheric sound. Actually, I'm really high on mid dome designs for rear channel speakers. They have awesome dispersion as you know, that creates a "bubble" of sound and immerses you into the scene. Very nice!

I experienced that at a friend of mines home that has Legacy Signatures for both mains and rear channels. They are soon to be replaced by (4) Statements in a sealed configuration attached to the top of (4) 15" TC Sounds subs. These will become his mains and surrounds. :T

Jim

[Jed]

Hi Jed,

Not over kill necessarily for movies. Master and Commander for example has a cannon shot go off in the rear channels that can be felt if you have full range speakers for the rear or a rear sub. It's quite an experience to be buffeted by bass from behind you.

Thanks again! Really appreciate the feedback. Having been a 2 channel guy my entire life it's kinda neat doing something new. Even if it does mean spending more $$$.

Jed

[Jed]

Lineup D4 BOM Note: I changed a few values to make it easy to order all the parts from madisound and partsexpress. I'll update the crossover schematic to show new value changes that are readily available etc. If anyone wants to help out with creating a BOM for the other speakers just let me know or post your list and I can update the 1st page of the thread. Don't forget I'm documenting everything in the first page to keep this information in one place.
Madisound:
2 x 1.5mH 19AWG Air Core Inductor
2 x 0.15mH 19AWG Air Core Inductor
2 x 0.82mH 14 AWG Perfect Lay
2 x 0.25mH 19AWG Air Core Inductor
2 x Bennic Poly 1 mfd
4 x 6 mfd Solen Fast Cap 400V
2 x 25 mfd Solen Fast Cap 400V
2 x 12 mfd Solen Fast Cap 400V
2 x 18 mfd Solen Fast Cap 400V
2 x Eagle- 3 ohms
2 x Eagle- 7 ohms
4 x Eagle- 20 ohms
2 x D26NC55 1" Textile dome tweeter
2 x D-CUP Terminal Cup

$183.10 (Enough for 1 pair of speakers or 2 crossovers).

Partsexpress:
260-317 Acousta-Stuf Polyfill 1 lb. Bag .. $9.75
260-530 Sonic Barrier 3/4" 3-Layer Damping Mate .. $17.74
264-848 Yes Tang Band W4-1337SA 4" $54.64 (2) $109.28
Subtotal: $136.77
Wood, screws, and wire will need to be purchased as well.

[Jed]

My parts for the Lineup Maxx speaker will be here tomorrow, so I should have some listening impressions for you all sometime this weekend. I'm looking forward to hearing this speaker as I think the W4 are really excellent and should be even better with the 200hz and below frequencies handled by 4 subs per side. The TB W5 woofers are pretty unique, and one of the only small woofers with decent effeciency and bass extention in a small box. There is one other woofer I'm interested in, but no one carries it yet. It's the Peerless 5.25" SLS subwoofer. I emailed madisound to get some more info on it, since if it has better distortion characteristics than the W5s, it might be a nice upgrade down the road for not too much more money.

[Hdale85]

Sounds interesting do you have the specs on the peerless? How kind of xmax does it have? Would it play lower then the W5?

[Jed]

I haven't run the numbers yet, but they might go a bit lower, but probably not. I'm more concerned with getting the lowest distortion possible. As I said, it doesn't look like anyone carries these anyway. I'd just like to test a pair that's all. http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=356

Edit: Got the email from madisound about the little peerless and they won't be carrying them for at least 2 months or at all. They want to see how the 6.5" SLS does before bringing in the 5.25".

[Jim Holtz]

I know it's probably in this thread somewhere, but what woofers are you using with the CC?

Hi Brian,

I'm not sure anyone answered your question but I believe it's Tang Band W5-876SD 5" Shielded Subwoofer as the woofers with a W4-1337SA as the mid.

Jim

[Jed]

Hi Brian,

I'm not sure anyone answered your question but I believe it's Tang Band W5-876SD 5" Shielded Subwoofer as the woofers with a W4-1337SA as the mid.

Jim

Yeah, this thread is getting long so guys you can check the 1st post for all the most important info since I'm updating it as things progress.

Jed

[Hdale85]

Yeah this thread is rather popular...although I think I have at least half the posts in this thread. Hmm I should shutup :B

[Hdale85]

Well as soon as ebay decides to start working again I'll have some clamps ordered. I would go through harbor frieght but they say 10-14 days for delivery. Did pretty good anyways 16 assorted clamps for like 95 bucks shipped. (4) 12" (4) 18" (4) 24" and (4) 30".

[Jed]

Well as soon as ebay decides to start working again I'll have some clamps ordered. I would go through harbor frieght but they say 10-14 days for delivery. Did pretty good anyways 16 assorted clamps for like 95 bucks shipped. (4) 12" (4) 18" (4) 24" and (4) 30".

Nice, keep us updated on your progress Dougie. I should have a crossover design for you all to try after I listen to it this weekend. Parts are probably waiting on my doorstep right now.

Jed

[ThomasW]

Once a couple of these designs are built, I'll create a separate dedicated build thread for the 'Missions Accomplished' section by copying over the pertinent posts.

That way people wanting to copy the design, don't have to wade through dozens and dozens of pages to get to the meat of the matter...