Rotel RSP-1066 Bass Management Report

[Dre J]

Hello,

I finally registered since I had something useful to add. More to come.

I've spent a good deal of time characterizing the Rotel RSP-1066's bass management under all input conditions. Below is the link to my web page with Rotel's Bass management report and workarounds for using the Unit by itself.

ROTEL RSP-1066 Bass Management Report
Updated 09/02/02 to include Small speaker setting note for 2-channel analog.

Enjoy!

My next report will explain how the Rotel can be used with additional devices to gain full bass management control. Stay tuned!

Update 08/12/02
First installment of additional device control.
Rotel RSP-1066 plus Outlaw ICBM Bass Management Fix Report
(not including multi-channel analog input)
Enjoy!


Update 08/13/02
Second installment of additional device control.
Rotel RSP-1066 plus The Dual ICBM Sandwich Full Bass Management Fix Report
(Including multi-channel analog input)
Enjoy!

Update 08/19/02
Third installment of additional device control.
ROTEL RSP-1066 plus Outlaw Audio ICBM Full Bass Management Fix Report for 5.1 Users Only
(Including the multi-channel analog input using a 5.1 input)
Enjoy!

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[efarstad]

Dre J, I've taken the liberty (since Andrew is on vacation and would normally do this) of sending your information to Rotel. You may have already done this, but as we all know, they love to hear our input, ideas, and suggestions!

Thanks for doing that for us 1066 owners! :T

E





The Norwegian A/V Nut!
E-Cinema

[Dre J]

Thanks,

My dealer told me today that he sent the report off to Rotel as well. I hope it's useful for them to help find a fix.




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[rodH]

I just got the 1066, let me see if I understand this right, to solve the problem of double bass,

for 2 channel analog AND PCM (digital) just set the default to "NO Sub", that solves the double bass problem, but creates a problem in the fact that not everybody owns full range 2 main speakers (although mine are very close so perhaps that is the "best" solution? and the best way to get the "clearest and most accurate" signal)

I read on another forum that you could also do another option that may help, just decrease the sub volume to very low levels and set the default to that set up, so you are getting the "full range (relatively)" to the "mains" and the sub is just set at an extremely low volume, TO add to that, say the mains go to 38 Hz (like mine do), perhaps just set the default for that specific input at 40Hz and for DD and DTS set it at 80 (or 60, or 100, or whatever you like) that way, it is ONLY covering the very lowest bass anyway (perhaps this solution could be done at the sub crossover, just set it at "40Hz" on the actually sub amp/crossover, would either of those options work?? (or can you not designate a different freq for the sub for different inputs??

UPDATE--------->>>

well, I just went and played around with the settings, one of my options is wrong. You can't set the sub crossover to different Freq based on the format/input (DTS, DD, LPCM, Analog, multi-ch, etc...) once you set it at a certain setting, it stays there for all formats, BUT In the process I did realize that that maybe my best option. Just set it at 40Hz (since my mains go to 38Hz anyway) and always have the sub on. That seems to be the best option for me, WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK????

btw, the crossover in the Rotel is VERY effective and it works very well, not a lot of higher frequencies sneeking in (like some crossovers I have heard), so that is GOOD

anyway let me know what you think.

the ONLY problem I may see is that, if I have all the rears and centers set at "small" does that mean that everything above 40Hz goes there as well?? that may not be so good?

[Dre J]

Update 08/12/02
First installment of additional device control.
Rotel RSP-1066 plus Outlaw ICBM Bass Management Fix Report
(not including multi-channel analog input)


Enjoy
Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Andrew Pratt]

thanks dre for the info.

[Dre J]

No problem Andrew,

I own it now. So, I have a vested interest in seeing it work properly. One way or another $$$.

The multi-channel analog input solution will be coming shortly.




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[brianca]

I have to be doing something wrong here. I still can't get any info out of my sub when using a two channel mix to the 5.1 inputs. Can you tell me what you did to accomplish this?




brianca

[Dre J]

Brian,

I repeated the same thing last night and was getting unwanted information on my 0.1 channel.

Are you sure you selected multi-input?
Are you sure your sub is connected to the sub out on your pre-outs?
You should be able to check this with the test tones.
You can also turn your amp off for your mains and only have your sub active to verify the information is there.




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Dre J]

Update 08/13/02
Second installment of additional device control.
Rotel RSP-1066 plus The Dual ICBM Sandwich Full Bass Management Fix Report
(Including multi-channel analog input)
Enjoy!

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[brianca]

Yep. All of the above are checked. I'm using a DVD-A that has both a stereo and a multi channel mix. When I'm on multi I get sub, but when I'm on stereo I get no sub. Maybe I just got lucky and got a 1066 without this problem?




brianca

[Dre J]

brian,

Try one more thing for me, please.

Play the music through the multi-channel input. First using the multi-channel mix, then the stereo Mix.

While playing the stereo mix, turn the front L/R main speaker amplifier off.

Do you here anything from the sub?

What are the speaker settings in the speaker setup menu?
What are the settings in the sub level menu?

You said multi and stereo. Do you mean you sending both stereo and multi DVD-A through the RSP-1066 multi-channel input?
What disk are you playing and what player are you using?

Thanks
Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[brianca]

I'll give it shot when I get back to the house tonight. I've done so in the past with the same result though.

I've tried various speaker and crossover settings with no impact on what I'm hearing.

I've tried both the Fleetwood Mac Rumours DVD-A and the Dishwalla one on a JVC 728GD DVD-A player.


brianca.




brianca

[brianca]

Ok. I tried it again and got the same results. I powered off the amp for my mains and there was no sound out of the sub when listening to a stereo mix on the 5.1 inputs.




brianca

[Dre J]

Brian,

How is your sub connected to the RSP-1066?

What version of firmware is in your RSP-1066?




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[brianca]

Just the standard sub out on the 1066 to the sub. I'm running version 2.47 I think. It's the first update that was avaliable on the web site.




brianca

[JKohn]

Hey brianca, wanna trade 1066's?

I'm at a total loss to explain why you're getting different results. I wonder if it's the firmware. I'm pretty sure i have 1.35 since I never updated it and I believe that was the first version that didn't show the version number (mine doesn't).

If that's the case, then at least there's hope that Rotel can fix this issue with a software update.




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[brianca]

That sounds like the version I'm running as well then. I just didn't remember what their numbers was. Mine is the first one that came out, and the first one that made the version # go away.




brianca

[Lex]

I believe Rotel should be sent this entire thread Gentlemen, agree?

It seems there is an inconsistency, and maybe hearing about it first hand could help.

Lex

[brianca]

I'll be happy to talk to the guys over at Rotel if they'd like me to go through any testing on my unit. I've talked to them a few times in the past on other issues, and they were great to deal with.




brianca

[Dre J]

Brian,

If you don't mind, I'd like for you to post or e-mail me your exact setup menu values for the following menus.

Test tone
Sub level
Speaker

I'd also like for you to send me your update file.

Thanks
Dre
ill-dre@fuse.net




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[brianca]

Test Tone:
Left 0
Center -3
Right 0
Right Surr -1
Center Surr -2
Left Surr -1

Sub:
Crossover 80Hz
All 0's on the trim settings

Speaker:
All small
Sub=yes
Rear = 2 speakers


I don't think I have the flash file anymore. I'll dig around for it.




brianca

[efarstad]

Here's an e-mail response from Rotel concerning Dre's original post:

Thank you for your comments on bass management however we do not understand why you think the analog pass through is incorrect?

Speaker size setting for DVD-A and for that matter SACD will be controlled in your DVD player and not be part of the processor.

DVD-A is not a very well defined format it is inhibited by USA lawyers who blocked the transfer of digital information from DVD-A disks to the processor. Any digital signal transmission that occurs must be in a proprietary format that prevents a user from recording. Rotel does not have such a format or system.

The information recorded on DVD-A disks varies from recording company to recording company, there is not a common standard. Engineers are free to use the six channels as they wish and as we have seen, disks have been issued without a separate bass track while others contain six full frequency tracks.

It is not the business of Rotel to try and correct for these disks.

We think you wish to apply the same format of the DVD video operation to the music recordings. While reasonable in essence quite difficult in practice. If the Hollywood lawyers had not blocked the transmission of digital information similar settings could be applied.

However, when the signals are in analog it is very difficult to apply any kind of bass redirection. The DVD-A format is compromised it was not conceived to be used through the an analog pass through.

There is a dichotomy between video users and audio users the purists of audio do not want any subwoofer operation during stereo playback. Video users say they want to hear their subwoofers operating. It's difficult to please both all the time.

We have done the following
a) You can re-direct all the main signals to the Sub channel, meaning we make a simulated (quasi) sub signal for the subwoofer use.
b) we have also raised the sub level by 10dB, so that the sound level is compatible with the Dolby surround sound requirement.

The item above may not be directly relevant, but in case people think that bypassing the bass management is also bypassing the subwoofer channel. It is not so, and can be controlled by the OSD menu.

Maybe we are not clear on your comments expressed on the web and so we ask you to please explain yourself again.


rgds
Mike

The Norwegian A/V Nut!
E-Cinema

[Dre J]

Update 08/19/02
Third installment of additional device control.
ROTEL RSP-1066 plus Outlaw Audio ICBM Full Bass Management Fix Report for 5.1 Users Only
(Including the multi-channel analog input using a 5.1 input)
Enjoy!

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Andrew Pratt]

Dre the latest plublicaly available firmware is available for download from my site under the rotel link in the menu

[Dre J]

Thanks Andrew,

I did the update to 1.42/1.43 the day I received my RSP-1066. The bass management "issues" and workarounds are based on that software.

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Dre J]

The 6.1 input is Broke as well and has nothing to do with the music format. The 6.0 channels are given a full range signal yet everything below 120 Hz is sent to the 0.1 channel ALSO. This is bass doubling of the inputs. I call it broke. I have workarounds for it but it's still broke and I want the option of turning off the bass doubling.

Everything except the 6.1 input can be worked around without additional equipment. Make no mistake about it the 6.1 analog inputs allow low frequency information for the 6.0 channels to go to the 6.0 channels AND the 0.1 channel.

I enjoy my unit, but I want the Bass management issues fixed. I believe they are simple to take care of. Rotel is aware of them, including the 6.1 channel input. I hope they will do the right thing and Fix the Yes/Max subwoofer problem and the 6.1 channel input.

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Dre J]

ROTEL RSP-1066 Bass Management Report
Updated 09/02/02 to include Small speaker setting note for 2-channel analog.




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Kevin C Brown]

I only have 1 suggestion why brianca might not be seeing this, but it's not likely. If the sub is in "auto" power mode, maybe the signal isn't loud enough for his sub to recognize it and turn on?

brianca, have you verified that you *do* get a signal out of your sub when using the digital crossover and a PCM CD feed with the mains off, main speakers small?

[Dre J]

FYI:

Firmware version 1.45 also has the same Bass management issues stated in 1.42/1.43.

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[RogueAngel]

Has anyone really confirmed that Rotel has admitted that this is an error and something they are trying to change. If I remember right, a response from Rotel I saw seemed to say it was intentionally that way. It seemed to me at the time that they were saying they didn't see a need to change anything.

[Dre J]

It is broke. It does not do what the manual says.

The Yes/Max setting for the subwoofer is the same as described in my report. They have the report but have not done anything about it as of yet. One of the department heads, forgot his name, was in the Far East when I gave them my report. They were circulating my report around while waiting for him to come back to make a decision.

I have not heard anything from my dealer or Rotel about a fix yet. I am starting to grow very unhappy with Rotel and the feedback network.

The unit is broke. It may make many happy but the only thing that comes to mind when I see my unit is the fact that I spent another $500 dollars to circumvent the bass management issues with the unit.

Good business practices would suggest that Rotel accommodate this issue. This device is part of nearly $4500 of Rotel equipment in my Audio/Video setup. It is supposed to be the center of my processing. Now it is only a DTS/DD decoder because I cannot stand the bass doubling issues.

My only recourse is to keep discussing the issue so Audiophiles know that the unit is broke as I have described and the bass doubling is not acceptable to me.

All Rotel has to do is FIX the Yes/Max issue with the Unit and give Audiophiles the option of turning off the Bass doubling.

I hope Rotel can get this issue fixed so I can continue to recommend the unit. It is getting harder and harder to praise a broke piece of equipment or even keep it in my audio rack.

Yes, you can have the cake and eat it too.... (Fix the Yes/Max problem)

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Nicholas Renter]

Have you tried the 1.45 version of the software? They adressed my distortion / SPL issues with that release.

[Dre J]

Yes, Check three posts up from yours.




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[merc]

YO! Wake up and smell the low bucks! Both the 1066 and the Outlaw 950 units are great bang for the buck units. Both of them also have limited and seemingly unified circuitry. DreJ and others are doing the best they can to fix the factory design problems but they are only fixes, not corrections.

If you want units without faults, you should look elsewhere... with alot more money.




Take Care,
merc

[sdecker]

Dre J

Have you done the test with version 1.46? I know you just got the version , but you know how audio geeks have to do thing NOW. :LOL:

TIA

Earle

[Andrew Pratt]

while I haven't tried it with 1.46 I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed yet.

[Nicholas Renter]

Ooops....So many posts and such a little attention span.

ops:

[Dre J]

Version 1.46 is still a disappointment!

It is still broke. Yes/Max does not operate as advertised in the manual. Bass management is still broke for LPCM, 2-channel Analog, and 6.1-channel analog.

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[sdecker]

Real newbie question here, but what does LPCM mean? Is it just the same as PCM audio?

Dre J,

Can I use the ICBM to just"fix" the r/c/l channels of the 5.1 inputs. I have a 3 channel amp for the L/C/R. SACD player is the Sony 775.

I redirect the L/R to power the rear center of my 1055.

For normal listening I use the digital connection with the sub crossover set to 60hz. I only use the digital connections.

[Arnold van Oostrum]

Real newbie question here, but what does LPCM mean? Is it just the same as PCM audio?

yes it's the same. Officially it's called Lineair Pulse Code Modulation.

[Dre J]

Earle,

Before I can answer your ICBM/1066 question, I need some information.

Are you running a 5.1 setup?

Do you have a subwoofer?

Does it have a built in crossover?


For a primer, Please read the links in my original post. It contains the 1066 modes of operation and the Bass management issues with those modes plus suggested workarounds. The other links describe Better bass management fixes for all modes.


Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[sdecker]

Yes I have a subwoofer(1 powered withvariable xover and 2 passive with ext amps)

I have a 7.1 ysytem for HT but for the multi Inputs just 5.1
I have a ICBM and am powering the l/c/r with an 3 channel amp

Im using a 1055 FYI with version 1.46


TIA

Earle

[Dre J]

I answered in the other thread.


Because you are using a 7.1 configuration, the 5.1 multi-channel analog input will need a sandwich configuration, I'm afraid.

The recombine feature of the ICBM between the 5.1 analog source and the 1055 is necessary.

A crossover after the 1055/1066 to separate the LFE information from the mains before it goes to the amps.

I cover this in my Dual ICBM sandwich report above.

Note: You can replace the lower ICBM with a crossover like the Paradigm X-30.

I could explain more if your going that route

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Andrew Pratt]

Could we not fix most of the bass management issues by setting all our speakes to small except the mains, set the sub to off then run the mains though the subs cross over?