Starship Troopers Discussion

[Chris D]

Sorry if this gets David or anyone else going. I just think it's a worthwhile discussion!

As posted in the upcoming releases thread, Starship Troopers is about to be released in Superbit edition. I love this movie and will most likely buy this one too. The problem is, this is the third edition to be released over time of the movie. (i.e. not a standard and SE edition released simultaneously) Both previous releases were pretty good in quality.

I'll probably buy this one to use for watching the actual movie in good quality, and then keep my special edition release to use for the extra features, including some good commentary by Paul Verhoven. (sp)

I read the book by Robert Heinlein long before seeing the movie, and was very impressed. Historically, "Stranger in a Strange Land" is probably his most heralded book, playing a role in social revolution in the 60's, but I think Starship Troopers is probably his best book. The thing I like best about it is that complex issues of ethics and military morality in war. I don't think ANY movie made out of this book could truly capture its greatness, but I'd say the same thing of most "great" works of literature. (think of Lord of the Flies, most Isaac Asimov, Grapes of Wrath, etc) However, I think this movie does the book justice and does well.

This movie has a theme which has become one of my greatest deep thoughts about war, as a supposition that in order to truly wage war and have complete emotional buy-in from ourselves and the rest of our society, we must view the enemy as animals or insects, not human. By dehumanizing the enemy in our minds, we are able to justify killing even more and put our conscience to rest. This same theme also runs in Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card, one of the greatest books ever written, and is from my favorite episode of "The Outer Limits" TV show--my favorite show.

There's a line in the movie that stuck me as poignant, too, in which a TV talking debate is discussing the possibility of the bug race being intelligent. One commenter gets very angry and says "Intelligent bugs? Frankly, I find the idea offensive!" Again, showing how he is choosing to classify and stereotype the bugs, as well as touching on the subject of absolute truth. Does whether an idea offends you or not have any bearing at all on it being true or not? I think society has gone down this path ay too far, shying away from certain ethical/political topics and refusing to take a stand on it because one viewpoint or another offends someone.

Director Paul Verhoeven has a unique perspective on the societal issues brought out by Heinlein in the story, since Verhoeven came from World War II Netherlands after being conquered by Nazi Germany. He talks about his views in the movie commentary, which are very insightful. I think he got some of the points wrong, but still I believe that he did a good job of demonstrating issues from the book in the movie.

I'm done rambling. Your thoughts?




CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

[David Meek]

Why you . . . you . . . you . . . critic, you!!!!! :tomato: :wedgie: Heh, seriously though Chris, I agree with you about Starship Troopers being Heinlein's masterpiece. And what I'm about to say, I voice as my personal opinion, and not as an attack on your opinion. Both (I hope) are valid, just different.

Rather than just dogpile in on Verhoeven, which is my favorite course of action with this movie, let me describe where I'm coming from. I don't remember exactly how old I was when I first read Troopers, but it was early on, I was around 11 or 12 - somewhere thereabouts. It was one of the first truly memorable books I encountered. For what it's worth, a few others were A Princess Of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs (and the rest of the John Carter series), The Foundation Trilogy by Isaac Asimov and Cities In Flight by James Blish - we can talk about those later if anyone is interested.

Being an Air Force-baby, I was well acquainted with the military, its duties and all the trappings that came with that life. Troopers simply re-inforced the concepts of duty, responsibility, and sacrifice for the greater good. Lying motionless on an anthill for hours anyone? Being so young, I was greatly impressed by Johnny Rico's story and thought that everyone should be like him. Well, that notion was quickly submarined as I grew a little older and reality reared its ugly head. I got to know and experience life's little pitfalls in all their glory and that, as we all know can do lots of negative things to a youngster's values and ethics and view on the world. Occasionally, I'd go back to those old tried and true books that had so enthralled me and made my imagination shoot of the ends of the universe with their stories. As such, I had constructed a fond mental image of Troopers - my own movie if you will, and refined it over decades by re-reading the book every once in a while.

Verhoeven walked into a minefield he may not have suspected. From the amount of resistance to the movie I read in print, saw on the 'net, and heard on radio and TV, there are/were lots of other people that felt the same way I did/and still do. In short, taken by itself it's a decent popcorn sci-fi flick with an exceedingly good standard of basic picture quality, special effects and hyperactive soundtrack. One thing I will always give major props to Verhoeven about were the warrior bugs. I felt like he'd reached into my mind and pulled their image straight out onto the film. They were awesome! Now the tank bug, flying bug and some others were just plain silly, but that's not a big issue. Casper Van Dien is a good looking kid that could have filled the shoes of Johnny Rico admirably and Denise Richards (always easy on the eyes) was another good choice as Carmen Ibanez. The gore quotient was a little high, but there again that's just part of selling tickets and generating talk about a movie. Let me re-iterate, BY ITSELF it's a decent wild-west-in-outer-space/sci-fi/shoot-em-up that I'd be happy to own and play occasionally.

And that is the crux of the matter. It is not a standalone movie. It was named after the book. The characters' identities were lifted from the book. The storyline about mankind vs. the bugs was lifted from the book. So, by those basic facts, Verhoeven set himself and his film to represent the tale told by the book. He didn't even come close - NOR DID HE TRY. Where are the scenes showing the eventual awakening of Johnny to the beliefs of sacrifice for the greater good, of earning one's meaningful place in society by serving in the military thus earning the right to vote, of protecting society and consequently those less able to protect themselves? Where are the scenes showing his thoughts on morality as it relates to policing his own organization - the AWOL child killer? Where are the the moments he treasures in his chaste and sincere relationship with Carmen? I mean let's face facts, Denise Richard in that pink dress isn't there to generate any thoughts on chastity. The scene in the tent with Johnny and Dizzy Flores? Chaste and sincere? Where is Sgt. Zim's moment showing he really is a caring human? Where is the strong, stern yet fatherly presence of Lt. Raszac overshadowing everything? Michael Ironside? Please. I haven't even touched on Johnny's journey through OCS (Officer Candidate School).

Lastly, Mr. Verhoeven's comments regarding his message about the societal and militaristic issues may be valid for him and his need to tell a story, but they didn't fit in the context of the book as it was written by Mr. Heinlein. The military/economic society in the book was in no way portrayed as a Nazi-istic state. It was a society that had evolved out of the collapse of of the United States and other world nations under their eventual ultra-liberal leanings and consequent inability to function.

Whew. Did I really type all that? 8O

Gimime a few minutes to think about this and I'll get seriously worked up and tell you what I really think. :B Good topic Chris. :T




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[Chris D]

David- I couldn't agree more on some of Verhoeven's perspectives. I'd have to listen to the commentary track again to remember all of them. But he seemed heavily focused on how society can become totalitarian, which I didn't think was the biggest theme of the book, if even at all, as you said.

I don't think any movie could have captured all of the issues that Heinlein raises in the book. But it still raised many, like the interesting idea of having to EARN citizenship, that rights are not freely given to all.

I was suprised that as much as I disagreed with Verhoeven's views of the movie, I still think the end product was very good. Different from the book, yes, I absolutely agree, and not complete. But still one I appreciated, beyond the pure "sci-fi thriller with no plot exploration" that could have been made.

Perhaps you're right, that any director that tried to make this movie was destined to fall short of expectations, just due to the greatness of the book.

(complete tangent issue now, but I'd have to say the same thing about most of Michael Crichton's books, which are excellent works, in depth and technical. However, I feel Crichton has started to write books now with the future movie in mind, which takes away from his writing. I found this to be true with Jurassic Park sequels and especially one of his most recent, "Timeline". Perhaps it's good that Heinlein died before any of his works made it to the screen)




CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

[George Bellefontaine]

Interesting discussion, guys. I never did read the novel so it's hard to comment in that regard.
I will say this, the original release was of excellent quality, and have used it often to demo my system to visitors. I don't believe I will bother with the Superbit version.




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[Dean McManis]

As far as the Starship Troopers Superbit DVD goes, the current one has always been a demo disc, and reference quality in both audio and video.
But I have to admit that I haven't watched mine for over a year (even just the usual demo segments), which is now the most determining factor in re-buying special edition DVDs lately.

-Dean.

[Clive]

I will say this, the original release was of excellent quality, and have used it often to demo my system to visitors. I don't believe I will bother with the Superbit version.

I share your opinion George. Long time ago when superbit came out I was gong-ho about it. I am more careful about dupes now




CLIVE




HEY!! Why buy movie tickets when you can own a Theater?

[Cracking Oboe]

Starship Troopers (superbit) revisited

The two versions have been out for a few years now... Has anyone had a chance to compare the Audio/video quality of the S.E. version of Starship Troopers to the Superbit release? (Chris, Did you purchase the superbit version?) Generally, the Superbit version sells for less than the S.E. version at the stores. :scratchhead: It makes me wonder if there is a reason for the (unusual?) pricing.

Cracking!

[Shane Martin]

The Superbit release is FAR superior.

I have alot of fun with the movie but if you have read the book I can understand why you would have some disdain for it.

[Cracking Oboe]

Thanks Shane! :T

[David Meek]

Shane nailed it. The Superbit stands alone.

Now, go read the book! :B