New to forum...Need help!

gd · 20 July 2004, 11:43 Tuesday

Originally posted by asg420

My dealer suggests that if I am willig to spend the money, that the 802's will benifit from making the jump to the 1098 processor.

I would be skeptical of that dealer's claim... the processors / DACs of the 1056, 1068 & 1098 are very similar, if not exactly the same... however the 1098 is constructed in superior fashion resulting in a lower noise floor, which may or may not be audible.

It would be the higher-powered amp which is making the B&Ws sing; they like power.

I'd suggest taking the B&Ws and the RMB-1095 home and using the 1056 as a pre/pro, for the time being... I'll bet the difference will be huge... later you can audition and compare a 1068 or 1098, but I'll bet the difference from the 1056 won't be quite as dramatic.

Unless you can readily afford all separates now, in which case I say go for it!

Parasound?... they're great... audition, and trust your ears.

**will1066** · 20 July 2004, 11:47 Tuesday

A hearty welcome to you, because I expect this will be a hearty discussion.

I would take a good look at dedicated stereo power amplification options, get the most power you can get, plus get the best pre/pro you can afford, because the 802 plays in the big leagues. Also, I would not limit the options to Rotel and Parasound. I'd keep the options open because, again, the 802 plays with the big boys. If you're going to spend the money on 802, what the heck, you're already going for broke, so don't sell the gear side of the equation short.

**aud19** · 20 July 2004, 12:44 Tuesday

First let me say that I have to disagree with gd's assesment of the 1098 vs 1068. There are numerous ways the 1098 is a better prepro than the 1068. Do a scan through Club Rotel and you'll find numerous threads stating the very real differences and the extra sound quality you'll hear. Now deciding if those difference are worth the moeny is up to the individual but I'll also add that the better quality the rest of the system (including those stellar 802's) the more likely you are to hear an even bigger difference withe the 1098.

As for Parasound they also make VERY nice gear though generally at a higher price than Rotel gear. They also tend to be a bit warmer. Let your ears and your wallet be your judge.

I'll echo will's remarks, go with a dedicated 2-channel amp for your mains :T :P

Jason

**asg420** · 20 July 2004, 12:53 Tuesday

Thank you for your replies.....

Thank you for your insight and recomendations.

I like the idea of taking home the 1095 amp and using my current reciever as a "test" sound to get used to with the new 802's. My only concern about that is...I am living in our new house now. I am very familiar with the sound of the Rotel 1056 and my CM4's in a small, fully carpeted apartment living room. The room where this equipment is going in my new house is probably twice to three times the size for the apartment living room as well has 20 foot ceilings with hardwood floors (currently).

I believe that this will be a good test option but I may just want to start fresh in the new house - (excited to get new toys and play!!!)

I also do not want to sell the gear side short. That is EXACTLY what I don't want to do. It difficult becasue the 802's are eating up a HUGE portion of the budget. The Rotel gear (1068 & 1095) comes in at a price lower than that of one single Parasound component. Can anyone definitively say that the Parasound Pre/Pro is "better" than that offered by Rotel?

And when you mention get the most power I can afford, well the 1095 is a damn large amount of power...at any price... I believe that the Parasound A51 offers 250w/ch where the Rotel 1095 offers 200w/ch - will the 50w/ch make a difference with the 802's?

Also, I will initially be using a pair of CM4's for my rears and will probably get the HTM1 eventually but in the mean time will use the CMC for the center channel - can the CM4's and CMC handle the added power?

What difficult for me is that I really like getting bang for buck, no matter what I am buying. If the sound and power of the Rotel is awesome (which I know it is) then why would I want to spend more $$ for anything else.......

I have no problem going for broke here but I only want to do it if it's necessary - Doing it just to do it isn't fun. Rotel sets a very high standard in my opinion and their price point is truly the best in the business. Its hard to think of anyhting else......

I'm heading back to the store today at lunch to audition the Rotel gear again. I'll let you know my thoughts.

Thanks again and I appreciate the welcome!

Best regards,

asg

**Andrew Pratt** · 20 July 2004, 13:03 Tuesday

I'd say get the 1095 amp and then either use your 1056 as a pre amp or move up and get the 1098. Honestly the 1056 and 1068 are going to sound so similar that wouldn't make sense IMO for you to sell the receiver to get the pre amp version of it. The 1098 on the other had would be a step up in both sound and build quality.

As for starting over you really are no matter what gear you choose as the room will play a huge role in the sound you hear..esp going into a room like you are that's going to be very open sounding.

Parasound makes exceptional gear and I don't think any of us here would have a problem owning a rack full of it but at the end of the day they are more expensive and only you can pick which sounds better to you...it might well be the Rotel even though its cheaper so don't assume more $ = better sound.

As for the difference in power 50 watts is nothing in the real world so don't worry about that...200 watts is ton's of power....though if 2 channel really is your game I'd consider going with the 1080 or 1090 for the fronts and adding a 1075 for the centre/surround duty.

**asg420** · 20 July 2004, 13:18 Tuesday

2 channel vs. 5 channel

Thank you for your open, honest replies.

What's the difference if I use a 5 channel 200w amp (Like the 1095) or if I use a 2 channel 200w amp? Isn't 200w/ch the same for both?

I always thought that in today's world, these new 5 channel amps were designed to give optimal performance for both 2 & 5 channel set ups.

This changes the whole ball game now.......Do I really want to put a 1090 (380w/ch) for the 802's and use another amp (maybe the 1095) for rears and center right now...leaving the other two channels open for sides?

I gather that Power is where I need to focus my research - processors I get the feeling may make some difference but the power is truly going to define the countour and feel of the music.

I'm glad Rotel give us all these amplifier options......what to do....what to do....

ops:

Best regards,

asg

**Andrew Pratt** · 20 July 2004, 13:27 Tuesday

What's the difference if I use a 5 channel 200w amp (Like the 1095) or if I use a 2 channel 200w amp? Isn't 200w/ch the same for both?

I always thought that in today's world, these new 5 channel amps were designed to give optimal performance for both 2 & 5 channel set ups.

Rotel designed the 2 channel amps with a more "audiophile" sound then the corresponding 5 channel versions so yes they will sound slightly different...and given how bright that room is going to be from the sounds of it a 2 channel amp for the fronts might help tame that somewhat.

If I were in your shoes with the 1056 receiver in the bag so to speak I'd give serious though to buying the 1090 for the fronts and either a 1075 or 1095 for the rest and use the receiver as a pre amp for the time being. You can always upgrade that at a later date but for now its more then good enough.

**will1066** · 20 July 2004, 13:36 Tuesday

Actually, like Andrew says, the room will be the number 1 factor in affecting the sound of your system. You might experience the audio equivalent of culture shock going from your apartment room to your new house room. Actually, hardwood floors are optimal for audio. The old general (but definitely not exact) hi-fi rule is to budget a ratio of approx. 2:1 for speakers to gear. The N802 costs $8k, so the gear budget should be around $4k. But the advent of multichannel has kind of broken that rule (multiple stereo amps versus multichannel amps), as it did to the 15% audio cable budget rule (15% times 3 pairs of cables for six-channel audio obviously no longer simply equals 15%). Then, there's also the philosophy that one should distribute equal amounts of the budget to all areas, because it is felt that different gear at the same cost level are designed to work best with each other.

Anyway, I'm not keen on the differences in the internal design between Rotel's multichannel and stereo amps, but few would dispute that their stereo amps sound better. It's not as much a power issue as it is a quality issue relating to the number of channels a toroidal transformer has to serve, damping factor, etc. Hence, a lot people here use a stereo-and-multichannel amp combination in their systems, even though not all channels are being utilized, because they want to extract as much performance as they can. This method, of course, will break open the budget.

**Andrew Pratt** · 20 July 2004, 13:45 Tuesday

Actually, hardwood floors are optimal for audio

I wouldn't agree with that statement...esp if the walls aren't acoustically treated either. Your goal for hi-fi should be to minimize all first order reflections which will come from the side walls, ceiling and floor while leaving the rear more reflective to give a deeper sense of depth. You may find that a well placed area rug between your chair and the TV will add significantly to the soundstage clarity you hear

**will1066** · 20 July 2004, 14:02 Tuesday

I wholly agree, Andrew. I made the statement in the context of his apartment being fully carpeted. Full and especially thick carpeting over-deadens audio, IMO.

**aud19** · 20 July 2004, 15:05 Tuesday

I agree, 1080 or 1090 for your mains 1075 for the surrounds and keep the 1056 as pre/pro until you save up for a 1098 or the like. Then move it to a secondary system or sell it.

Definitely on board with the throw rug too :T

Jason

**Aussie Geoff** · 20 July 2004, 22:53 Tuesday

Some "Bottom Line" opinions for you

Asg,

For completeness I am including an extract of your post in Club B&W.

I have decided to purchase a pair of 802's as my front speakers for a home theatre system. I currently have 4 CM4's for my fronts & rears with the CMC as my centre channel.

Since the 802's are putting a real dent in the wallet , I am considering using my CM4's for rears with the 802's up front. What do you think about this combo? Am I better off buying the pair of 805's to match best with the 802's or do the CM4's suffice?

I am really into my stereo channel music. Movies, in my opinion sound great with any equipment of this calibre....My concern is the rare 5 channel audio DVD or using my processors "sound enhancing" modes to fill all 5 channels with a stereo signal. Are the 805's better to match than CM4's?

Also, in regard to power handling.... Can I use an amp rated at 200w/ch with 805's & CM4's? I know that the power handling ratings for the 805's are 50w-150w as are the CM4's. Will this extra power hinder these speakers or make them sound even better? Is it advisable with B&W speakers to stick within the power rating specified?

Let me “Bottom Line it” for you (just my opinions):

The 802’s love quality high current amplifiers that double their power when the impedance halves. They are rated for amplifiers of up to 500W. I have heard them on 1000W Macintosh mono blocks and they were singing…
There are lots of good choices for amplifiers, and lots of opinions as to what is best. A lot depends on your wallet and tastes. Rotel’s RB-1090 (380W in 8 ohm and 700w into 4 ohm) is a great value choice. Some people have liked the Rotel RMB-1095 (5 x 200W). We have a few members who are passionate about Earthquake Cinenova Grand (5 x 300W and 7 x 300W) and seem to be able to get good deals on those (e.g. jimmy58 at jpiscitello@ameritech.net that bring them close to the Rotel Prices. Parasound make very good amplifiers as well – but more in the higher pricing side – though again if you ask in Club Parasound in this forum at least one member seems to have connections to get you near half price Parasound…
The 802’s like quality speaker wire and bi-wiring (that’s two pairs of wires to each speaker) they have separate connectors for this.
The consensus (majority opinion at least) seems to be that you will nee the B&W HTM1 centre with the 802s. I have heard it and it is seamless…
My view on the surrounds is as per the other posters – you could live fine with the CM4 until (or if) you can afford (want) more. Then it’s to do with money and room aesthetics as well as sound. 805, 804, 803 even 4 x HTM1s). However that is for the future…
Using your 4 CM4 gives you the (in my view) essential option of going 7.1 in your large room. 7.1 is awesome with Dolby ProLogic IIx and you will find new joy in home theatre with it.
Going 7.1 focuses the amplifier choices at little. For example:
- Rotel RB-1090 www.rotel.com/products/specs/rb1090.htm and RMB-1095 www.rotel.com/products/specs/rmb1095.htm
- Earthquake Cinenova Grand 7 http://www.earthquakesound.com/Cinenovagrande7.htm
- Parasound A21 www.parasound.com/halonew/A21details.asp and A51 www.parasound.com/halonew/a51front.asp
are all good choices. Byston are also good but seem to be pricing themselves into a different league.
Both the RSP-1068 and RSP0198 are very good. There are better power supplies and some components in the RSP-1098 that give it a better sound on high end systems like yours will be. This especially applies to the front left right and centre which have special circuitry and different op amps for high quality sound. So your dealers advice is good. I’d certainly be getting it.
There is one other HT Processor to seriously consider (which I just know Jimmy58 jpiscitello@ameritech.net ) will PM or post to tell you about) and that is the new Anthem D1 Statement http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/Products/D1/D1.html. The list on this is $4999 but they seem to have some “import from Canada” deal that makes it affordable (Anthem is owned by Sonic Frontiers who is owned by Paradigm in Canada). The matching Anthem Statement Amplifiers are affordable anyway There is the P2 and P5 or you could go P2 and A5 http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/P...s/P_Specs.html

Let me also recommend that you search Club B&W and Club Rotel for “802” – you will see lots of good posts re your questions from , including some owners you can PM. For example: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=8083

Geoff

**asg420** · 21 July 2004, 16:06 Wednesday

Thanks for the info...this is where i'm at

Ok -

So with all this GREAT info you guys provided....I am now looking at the following Rotel purchase;

1098 Processor - I want to be able to tinker, I like how I will be able to set the two channel stereo mode without a sub and then switch inputs and have the sub back on for dvd's etc. I am most familiar with Rotel's set up and feel that I shouldn't rock the boat...stick with what you know....

I also took another listen at the Parasound gear - Its more "digital" sounding to me than the Rotel stuff - The sound of the Parasound is a bit crisper, but the warmth and evenness of the Rotel is what I long for. Dr Boom - your review really pushed me over the edge.....I would hate to loose that "phantom center" sound which eminates from the combination of Rotel & B&W - Since you didn't find that floating center with the Parasound i'd ditch the parasound processor and stick with the Rotel. (Unless you are a movie buff first, then keep the C2).

So being that I have made this decision....I now turn to the power amp area - Do I really need the 1090 for the 802's? Would I want to consider bi-amping my 802's with a 1080 for the lows and two channels of a 1095 for the mids & highs? Do I just want to stick with the 1095 all around? Do I want to blow the entire load and get the 1090 & 1095 and leave room for side speakers?
Is the 1080 enough power for the 802's by themselves?

These are the questions plaguing my mind at the moment. The reason why I do not want to wait to get a 2 ch amp later is....I know I won't do it for a long time. So I may just spring for the two big boys (90 & 95) -

I'll keep you posted......

BTW - Does the silver on the 1098 cheapen the look at all? All my Rotel gear has been black but the wife wants silver - Any coments are greatly apprecaite as always.

Best regards,

asg

**Andrew Pratt** · 21 July 2004, 17:23 Wednesday

If you can the 1098/1090/1095 combo would be ideal..its what most of us aspire too but will likely never get to ;x(

Do you need the 1090? Not really as the 1080 would very likely do a very fine job but since you haven't settled for less then the best in your speaker choice or pre amp choice why start now?

As for the silver that's more a personal choice. I prefer all black in my gear so that it dissapears in my rack...but I'm actually leaning towards getting the silver amps the next go round as I realy like the look of the silver amps with the black fins on either side :yesnod:

**aud19** · 21 July 2004, 18:17 Wednesday

I own the 1066/1075 in silver and love em :yesnod:

As for the 1090 vs 1080. Try and look at it as buying a Corvette (1080) vs a Porsche or Ferrari (1090) Sure the Corvette has plenty of power and it's a great car most of us would love to own... but if you can afford the Porsche or Ferrari... :drool:

Jason

**Azeke** · 21 July 2004, 22:55 Wednesday

I definitely agree, I own the RB-1080 (corvette model), which I am very happy with :T . However, if I could afford the RB-1090, I would certainly take it for a test spin, but first I would have to see if it would fit in my garage (it's the size of the RMB-1095) and my budget (twice as much as the RB-1080).

Your mileage of course may vary,

Azeke

**Aussie Geoff** · 21 July 2004, 23:52 Wednesday

"Spring for the two big boys" - YES, YES

Asg,

To deal with your specific questions:

Do I really need the 1090 for the 802's?

Do you “need” it in an absolute sense – no. However will the RB-1080 do justice to the 802’s in that huge room – no. Filling that room will take some power. The 802’s love power (you will have seen the replies in Club B&W suggesting you get even more!). I have heard the 802s on 600W a channel McIntosh Amps which have VU meters to show the power(these are scaled at 6W, 60W and 600W representing 10db increases. At moderate volumes they were flicking into the 60W area on Peaks, and at (shall we say “room filling” volumes) they were occasionally flicking into the 600W area!

Would I want to consider bi-amping my 802's with a 1080 for the lows and two channels of a 1095 for the mids & highs?

No there are several posts on this exact topic and B&W have offered their opinion as well. Try THIS ONE and THIS ONE AS WELL Plus do your own searches.

Do I just want to stick with the 1095 all around?

No… Not I you can afford the extra for the 1090 now . However if you can’t quite spring it $ wise (and most of us at Club Rotel can’t) then the 1095 is a good compromised for now, with an upgrade to a 1090 and 7.1 later.

Do I want to blow the entire load and get the 1090 & 1095 and leave room for side speakers?

Remember Sally in “When Harry Met Sally” YES, YES, OH YES….

Is the 1080 enough power for the 802's by themselves?

Not really - in your new large (huge!) room it will not give you value at louder volumes – you will (most likely) hear mid bass and mid range “muffling” as the crazy crossover in the 802s goes through wild impedance changes demanding lots and lots of current. Certainly thats what a number of B&W users have experienced.

These are the questions plaguing my mind at the moment. The reason why I do not want to wait to get a 2 ch amp later is....I know I won't do it for a long time. So I may just spring for the two big boys (90 & 95)

Spring for those big boys – now is the time to get a good deal from that dealer (he must love you with 802’s HTM1, and RSP-1098 and (most likely) a RB-1090 and RMB-1095… You may (nearly) get the RB-1090 for “free” on the bulk discount…

PS – I’m sure 99+% of us are jealous and dream of a system like this

I know I am…!

Geoff

**asg420** · 22 July 2004, 09:48 Thursday

Meeting with the installer later tonight....

Hey guys,

Thank you all for the extremely sensible and valuable opinions.

Geoff, firstly - I have no intention of making anyone jealous - I must say that its truly nice to have found this community, where you can express your utter joy and happiness for audio gear and have people genuinely excited and happy for your too. If you are ever in my area....please come by a take a listen!

I will do more research on why NOT to bi-amp. I'll let you all know what purchases get made over the next few days!

I sincerely appreciate all the responses!

Kind regards,

asg

**Aussie Geoff** · 22 July 2004, 11:07 Thursday

Thanks for the complement...

asg420,

On behalf of us all - thanks for the complements - we too like our forum, helping each other and love fine music and HT....

Hopefully you’ll become an active member – sharing experiences, asking questions and, as you learn, offering opinions – we all started that way too…

Re Bi-wire vs. B-Amp – Bi Wire the RB-1090 and take the double power and current handling – you’ll get a better result than bi-amping with half the power. Bi-Amp will be even better if you had two 1090s - but that's for the future....

Remember bi-amping essentially wastes the amplifier signal not used for the highs and the lows. For example the amplifier driving the HF set of binding posts on the speaker will still send it a full range signal (including bass). Indeed the cross-over in the speaker will usually present a strange load for the bass on the HF binding posts (e.g. a high resistance and capacitance). So the amp strains trying to send unplayable bass to the HF units AND the bass energy needs to go somewhere (usually as heat in the speaker!). Some people use external crossovers before the amplifier to overcome this - but this in turn requires bypassing the speaker crossover, which gets very complex if the speaker isn't designed for it...

Bottom line - bi-amping with the RB-1080 will still only have a maximum of 200W to drive the bass / mid unit on the B&W 802s, with the other 200W reserved for the midrange and treble. Bi-wiring with the RB-1090 will give the full 380W (700W into 4 ohm) for the bass / mid unit and still give the same power to the midrange and treble.... And it is the bass / mid unit on the 802s that wants all that current and power... One day (if your desires and pockets allow) you can buy a second RB-1090 and bi-amp - just leave the space in your rack...

And (most of all) don't forget to tell us how you like your system when it is all up and running. Get that installer doing a 7.1 set-up for you.

Geoff

New to forum...Need help!

New to forum...Need help!

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