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I purchased a RSP-1066, RMB-1075, and RDV-1080 in December and have been trying different settings with my Paradigm speakers. My dealer told me to use the 1066's 80 Hz sub crossover point and set the sub's internal crossover to 150 Hz (i.e., its max position). My sub is a Paradigm PW-2200. After a month with this setting, I changed the sub's crossover to 80 Hz as well and noticed that male voices and surround sound were improved. Recently, I set the RSP-1066 crossover point to "off" in accordance with the Rotel manual (since my sub's crossover doesn't have a bypass or off setting). Surround sound is greatly improved. Will the sub's internal crossover protect all of my other speakers while the 1066 is set to "off"? Also, what do you guys recommend? Thanks!.........Terry
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Terry,
What are your speaker set as, small or large? What modes are you talking about? Do you mean just DD and DTS or are you also talking about music from your CD player(CD, multi or optical inputs)?
If DD and DTS with a speaker setting of small you get full bass management with the 1066. I use these setting and set my subs crossover just a little above the crossover point set on the 1066. For example I set my subs crossover at 80 and cross the 1066 over at 60. Since the subs crossover is 80 it should accept only signals below 80 and since I'm sending it 60 from the 1066 it works great.
If you use the large speaker setting your main speakers are always getting a full range signal.
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater -
Legairre,
I have all speakers set to "small". It applies to DD and DTS. I don't get any sub output for CD's and I assumed that's because of the bass management issue. Also, I've noticed that when I setup SPL levels with a radio shack meter it seems to be more accurate for DD playback than DTS. Why is that and how do I make DTS as accurate? Perhaps its connected with the initial overall volume level. But I can't figure out how to check a true "overall" volume level on the 1066, that is, I can't initiate the test tone for all speakers at the same time. So I use one of the front speakers as a reference. Thank you for your feedback! I've learned quite a bit from reading the forum over the past couple of months and I hope to contribute more in the near future.
.........TerryComment
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Have you used an audio meter and sent a test tone sweep to your center to see how the bass is handled? I am guessing you will have a hole in the bass response before the sub kicks in. That is unless you have a heck of a center channel speaker.Originally posted by Legairre
This is why I wish for separate crossover points for each speaker. My mains and rears do well down to 60 hz., but the center only does well to 80 hz when using a test tone sweep. The S&V Tune UP DVD has this test tone on it.
Also, it shouldn't matter whether you set the sub crossover to 90 or 150hz if the 1066 is doing it's job properly.
Sayer - Musical Creations and Home PageSayer - Musical Creations and Home PageComment
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I haven't updated my site, but last September. I upgraded my fronts to the B&W 604 S3 and my center to the B&W LCR600 S3 that has a frequency responce of 60Hz - 22kHz. I've never noticed any hole even during calibrations with my SPL meter and the Avia setup DVD. The LCR600 is really nice center. It's a 2.5 way speaker that many people use as their mains, it's also one of two speakers reccommed as the center for the 604 S3 mains.
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home TheaterComment
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When I changed the sub crossover (on the sub) to 80 Hz from 150 Hz, it resulted in an improvement in clarity of voices, especially male voices, and I also noticed more involvement from my surround speakers. I used a DVD that I am very, very familiar with for reference (Fifth Element, Superbit, DTS). I'll try the Avia test disk for frequency sweep.Originally posted by SayersWeb
TerryComment
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Terry,But I can't figure out how to check a true "overall" volume level on the 1066
When you calibrate with the SPL meter what do you set the 1066's main volume at? When I got my 1066 last year I wrote Rotel's tech support and was told to calibrate the 1066 to 75db reference, I had to set the 1066's main volume at 75 when using the test tones for calibrating.
On my old Denon receiver when ever I used the test tones it would automatically set the volume at 0. My Denon's volume went from -60 to 0 to +11, so 0 was the reference point for calibrating. The 1066 goes from something like 0 to 90. I could be wrong about the 90 I've never had it that high.
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home TheaterComment
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Legairre,
Articles I've read in various HT magazines have said to set the "overall" initial volume to 75 db on an SPL meter and then set individual speaker levels using test tones. The 1066 does not allow test tones through all speakers concurrently. Therefore, I set one of the front main speakers to 75 db per the Rotel manual. This corresponds to a RSP-1066 numerical volume setting of "61" for my system. BTW, a setting of "56" produces 70 db in my system.
However, I wonder if Rotel's method may not be correct, as THX and others talk about using an "overall" initial reference level of 75 db. I'm interpreting "overall" to mean the average total sound level at the seating location. I'm not an audio engineer, but one speaker producing 75 db is not nearly as loud as five speakers playing concurrently (as in a movie) when each of them is set to the same 75 db level. Am I mis-interpreting the concept of "overall" sound level to be used as a reference?
TerryComment
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Terry,
Using your reference point of "61" on the Rotel's main volume. Leave the volume at "61". Then calibrate each speaker individually to 75db with the test tones. The point is to get each speaker to produce exactly the same amount of volume at the listening position, so that one speaker doesn't produce more sound than another. Once the main volume is at "61" leave it there until your done with all the speakers. Put your SPL meter in your listening position(sweet spot) and don't touch it. Bring up the test tone menu and calibrate the left main speaker by increasing the test tone volume for the left main speaker until the meter reads 75db. Then do the same thing for the right main, center and surrounds. Depending on how close each speaker is to you the test tone + or - levels may be different for each speaker
For instance. If your front left main speaker is closer than your front right you may end up with the front left being set at +1 to get 75db at the listening position while the front right is set at +2 to get 75db at the listening position, because it's farther away. Don't think of the calibration process as a whole. Each speaker is an individual and the point is to balance the speakers so one doesn't give to much sound while another gives to little. Some speakers may end up at +2 while others are at +3 depending on their distance to the listening position. Just make sure each speaker is individually calibrated to 75db. When your done you might feel like you don’t hear the surrounds as much, but that's because their not over cooked anymore. Some people like to bump their surrounds up a db or two, because they like to hear them a lot. I'm not saying do it I'm just saying some people do. Also some people(I'm one of them) like to bump up their subs a few dbs to get that extra oomph during movies, while others don't. Balance your system first then make little changes based on your preferences.
I hope I'm being helpful and not I just rambling. Was this what you were looking for?
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home TheaterComment
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Legairre,
That's what I did. You are correct, I was thinking of the process as a whole and shouldn't have.
Also, have you ever tried setting the 1066's sub crossover point to "off" and using only the crossover on the sub itself? The Rotel 1066 manual recommends using one crossover point (on the 1066 or the sub, but not both of them) to avoid cascading crossovers. Thanks for the help!.............TerryComment
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Terry,
SayersWeb is correct. With the L/R fronts set as small all you really need to do is make sure your subs crossover is set higher than the 1066's crossover. For instance if you set 1066's crossover to 80hz the 1066 should only be sending freqencies from 80hz and below to your sub. So even if you set the subs crossover to 100hz it will never come into play, because the sub never gets a 100hz frequency, because the 1066 is only sending it 80hz and below. That's why many manuals say if your using a pre amp's crossover, turn your subs crossover all the way up. They're just saying get the subs crossover out of the way. Whether the subs crossover is 100hz or 150hz it shouldn't matter if the 1066 is sending 80hz. Now if you set your subs crossover less than or equal to the 1066's crossover, then you'll be using both crossovers at the same time. Like everyone says, crossovers aren't brick walls so make sure your subs crossover is out of the way.
I've tried using the subs crossover, but found it a pain to keep getting up to change the crossover on the sub during music and movies. I tend to like a 60hz crossover for movies and depending on the recording, I might change the crossover for music. Using the 1066 crossover let's me do it from my seat without getting up(just call me lazy)
ops: .
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home TheaterComment
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Legairre,Originally posted by Legairre
I'm not getting any sub output on CDs played on the DVD player. I assumed this was due to the bass management issue. Your post above appears to indicate that you are getting output from your sub on music. Are you using an external bass management device to enable this? (e.g., ICBM).
Based on your and SayersWeb's feedback, I've recently set my 1066 sub crossover to 60 Hz and the sub itself to 80 Hz. Thanks!......................TerryComment
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Terry,
I do get sub output using the CD input and a setting of SUB=YES on the 1066, but the way I was running my rig to use the subs crossover and not the 1066's was as follows:
You run the speaker wires from amp to L/R low pass line level inputs on your sub(if your sub has them) and then run speaker wires from the subs L/R low pass line level output to the L/R speakers. Then set the your subs crossover where ever you want. Then on the 1066 set the SUB=NO, and SPEAKERS=LARGE. With this setup the sub will get a full range signal and only feed a signal above subs crossover to your main L/R speakers. Since the LFE will now be mixed in with everything else. Your main speakers will play any LFE above the subs crossover point. So you mains will play any LFE say above 80hz. LFE can be as high as 120hz(I think, maybe someone else can chime in on this) even though we always think of it as 80hz and below.
I've even used this setup with four subs. One for each speaker. My center was setup as small so it's bass ended mixed in the mains too.
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home TheaterComment
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I disagree with some of the earlier discussion about possible interaction of the sub crossover and the preamp crossover, so here is my 2 cents! If the Rotel subwoofer crossover is set at 80 hz, that means it is 3dB down at 80 hz. Crossovers are NOT brick walls - so there will still be significant information sent to the sub at 100 Hz (only a couple dB lower), even with the Rotel set at 80 Hz. The 100 Hz sub crossover will roll off the signal further at 100 Hz, increasing the intended rolloff rate in the entire stop band, possibly creating an audible hole in that area. Similarly, the 100 Hz sub crossover is not flat in the pass band either, so it will be a dB down or so at 80 Hz, which lowers up the overall sub response at that point, increasing the size of the hole.
I don't know what order the filter is in the Rotel, I don't see it in the manual. Typical is 24 dB, and I've seen 12 dB and 36dB also. Regardless, the point is, you do NOT want the Rotel and sub crossover to be anywhere near each other. 80 Hz Rotel and 100 Hz sub is bad, avoid it if at all possible. Even 150 is not ideal, disabling the sub crossover is the best. Set it as high as possible to avoid weird interactions.
Don't overlay lowpass crossovers at all unless you have a hump there, usually caused by room interactions. There are occasions where I have moved the high pass and low pass crossover frequency around slightly relative to each other to alleviate a hump or hole in the response. That is, I make the low and high pass points slightly different on purpose, adjusting it by ear, and sometimes with measurements. I have dealt with subs that have non-defeatable crossovers, and that is always problematic unless the highest point is significantly higher than that of the pre/pro.
Cheers,
ChrisComment
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I am still "tweeking" my 1066 with my system. I currently have the 1066 xover to off and am using my subs x over. So far I prefer this method to using the one on the 1066. Maybe I set the subs at a differant level, but I know it sounds better to me. My SVS allows me to turn off the x-over on the sub. I had it turned off and the 1066 set to 80hz. then I tried 100hz. Then I just cut it off as I mentioned, so far so good, but still "tweeking".
You just can't fix stupidComment
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I'm also still tweaking and really appreciate everyone's input!
Chris- earlier I had my Rotel 1066 crossover set to 80 Hz and the Paradigm PW-2200 sub crossover set to 150 (its max). This setting seemed to result in a too high of pitch to male voices and lack of clarity in some dialog (especially noticeable on Fifth Element, Superbit, DTS). It also resulted in much less output from my surround speakers (Paradigm studio/ADP) compared to when I changed the 1066 crossover to off and the sub crossover to 80 Hz. This 80/150 setting also had reduced surround output compared to a 1066 crossover of 60 Hz and the sub's crossover set to 80 Hz. I'll need to pay close attention to see if any "holes" have resulted in this latest setting (60/80).
Do you have any recommendations for what to specifically listen for to detect a "hole"? Or for source DVDs for evaluation?
TerryComment
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Hi Terry,
Sorry I took so long to reply!
I don't doubt that what you said happened with the various settings did actually occur, but these results are very bizzare to me. Makes no sense. How could altering the very low end crossover result in much less sound from the surrounds? There is not that much information below 100Hz in the surrounds in my experience. When you say much less output, do you mean low frequencies, midrange, or everything?
The male voices sounding too high in pitch sounds like the lower end of the voice is rolled off. Lack of clarity? Can't comment without actually hearing what it sounds like, but once again seems like it is some stuff rolled off/missing. Do any of your channels go through the sub, and you are using a high pass filter there - then the 150 Hz would be High pass, and creating a huge hole. Probably not, but I'm reaching since something seems to be amiss in your setup.
As far as listening for a hole, I don't think DVDs are very good, unless you mean DVD-Audio discs. Music is much better (or better yet, measure test tones with an spl meter, making sure that the tones are not too far apart - 1/12th octave or netter is ideal). But I do it with music a lot too - just pick some tunes you are familiar with that have good bass lines that wander around (not just a couple of notes). If there is a hole, certain notes will be recessed in comparison to others. I myself have used Patricia Barber tunes, Al DiMeola, Grace Jones, Mark Knopfler, Emmylou Harris, and many others. Whatever I have out that has some decent bass. Try a few to make sure it is right, but I think the key is to play stuff you know how it is supposed to sound.
Sorry - don't think I helped much. Wish I could be there to help solve this mystery - it sounds weird to me!!
Cheers,
ChrisComment
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Chris,
I've returned my settings to use the 80 Hz crossover on the 1066 and the sub's crossover to 150 Hz (max) so I can re-evaluate with DVDs since I don't have any DVD-A yet.
Also, FYI, in another thread, Legairre indicated that there is much LFE/low bass in many DVDs. He has subs on his surround channels.
Thanks for the input!...........TerryComment
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