Disappointment at Rotel...

[Audio_ElF]

Am I the only one who feels that Rotel's recent offerings have been a little disappointing?

What have we had... a high end processor (RSP1582) - apparently only available available in Australia. The DAC hasn't arrived in Europe or the US that I've noticed.

The RA12 range seems a little confused.

The new Class A/B amplifier is just a recased RB1090 as far as I can tell.

And there has been no news of note from CES this year and nothing much (that I recall) at CEDIA end of last year.

Where are you going Rotel??

Eloise

[wkhanna]

Hi Eloise, it is great to see you here.

Regarding Rotel, I share your disillusionment with the recent drought of offerings aside from the 1582 which has garnered critical approval & maintains the Rotel tradition of excellent function with V little fluff.

I personally own three Rotel amps & an AV processor, & bought my first piece of Rotel equipment back in 1994. It was an RB-980 that while no longer in my possession is still in service to this day.

I always associated Rotel with excellent value & a design philosophy that stressed function & sound quality over trendy features & esthetic fluff.

Just some personal observations:

Release of new products (or lack thereof) seem to correlate with the international economic downturn of the past few years. Look also at the amount traffic here. Over the past few years chatter relating to Rotel has dropped off. I don’t know what recent sales figures are for the company, but I am willing to guess they are not as brisk as they once were.

Then look at the market niche. Home theater equipment is not the hot commodity it once was, IMO. I think people in general are spending less time in front of the ‘tube’. Connectivity of portable devises is intruding on market share. Rotel & Classe (sons of the same corporate mother) have been cautious in releasing new gear. The technology is changing faster & getting cheaper every day. When what are perceived as entry-level products are being offered with features & performance that 18 months earlier were little more than pipe dreams, it gets tougher for companies who offer premium products that have longer development times. I’m sure this is a flawed comparison, but think of it as having a 2012 $70 Mercedes that has less performance & technical features than a 2013 $25 KIA. Granted the KIA will not have the same solid ‘feel’ as the Benz, but to many buyers, the perceived ‘value’ of the Benz is diminished & does little to attract new buyers. And too, look at how the DAC category is changing everything from stand-alone units to all-in-one integrated amps with their own DAC built in. The market today is ‘Fast & Furious’ making it harder for higher-end manufactures whose designs typically have longer lead times & incorporate higher cost materials. This explanation may support the appearance of the rebadged RB-1090.

For now, it appears the ‘wait & see’ approach is being taken by Rotel. What developments they have on the shelves in the R&D Dept is anybody’s guess.

[PewterTA]

I have the same feelings are you. I was all hoping that a new lineup that would make me want to upgrade. Instead it's made me realize that I think I need to move to Classe or something else instead. I'll still keep my Rotel equipment humming as long as I can...It's been honestly some of the best equipment I've had and after a few simple mods to things... they are keeping up with equipment costing a decent amount more.

I just recently heard my RSP-1098 against a $5K tubed pre and to be honest, the only real difference was the sustain of cymbals... the Rotel just didn't quite have it. However, I felt it imaged better. So keeping up with an almost 2x tubed pre... not too shabby.

My modified RB-1090 has kept up with almost every amp I've heard costing close to $8k... So I'm not going to complain at all about Rotel. Just wish they had something neat coming out that would make me tingle with excitement!

[mjb]

Instead it's made me realize that I think I need to move to Classe or something else instead.

Thats what I thought too, and its pretty much what I did, but, think of Bills very true statement "think of it as having a 2012 $70 Mercedes that has less performance & technical features than a 2013 $25 KIA"

[sarsi]

Feeling the same here, I think the height of Rotel peak with the last huge heatsink look 10 series and all the way downhill passed that. Sad to see one of my favourite brand, my favourite RSP1098/RMB1095, heading south.

[eelco74]

I still use the RSP-1098 but I really woul like Rotel to release a high end AV amp.

Marantz just release the AV-8801 at 2900 Euro's so I don't see why Rotel can't.

[Mark_C.]

Like I stated in the other thread, when one of the biggest Rotel dealers on the West Coast decides to carry only Rotel's two-channel equipment, the line is in trouble. I believe the only way to save Rotel is for a chain distribution model, such as Best Buy's Magnolia. The type of dealers that sell Rotel are dying out.

[chanlon]

I agree with you 100%. My local dealer in Canada has stopped carrying their product line of receivers and processors as a result of all the complaints they had with HDMI delays and lock on issues.

I just mentioned in another thread that I replaced all of my pre/pro combo with a Yamaha 3010 for $1400. You get iOS apps, multi-zone control, a video processor that don't screw up the picture like the one in the 1570 (1572) and 9 Channels to power to boot. Does it sound as good? Honestly, it sounds a little different but I can't tell you which one necessarily sounds better. I've kept my Rotel 1077 amplifier in case I change my mind. :-)

And guess what, HDMI works perfectly with it. No more wife complaints, no more troubleshooting. It was an easy decision for me.

[Dmantis]

HDMI has been killing most companies. Rotel is no different. It seems it's extremely hard or expensive to get HDMI right.
Rotel doesn't offer attractive features in their receivers or Pre's anymore. I have been saying it for years they need to at least add some kind of room correction which would make a hard push for people like us to be attracted to.
Also look at the HDMI track record and failure rates , thats something no one wants to deal with.
B&K basically died due to HDMI and didn't offer enough tractive features and look where they are at now.
If Rotel wants to stay in business , they need to spend some money , get with the times and put out a AVR and Pre that everyone wants. Retain that sweet Rotel sound quality and make a statement on the market. They dug into ICE amps which I think is the way of the future so they are in the right direction at least here.

I say come out with a preamp and AVR that has Room correction , an App for control ,put a HOT USB DAC connection B style for High res music supporting up to 24/192. I think this would really put them back in the game. Computer music is hot right now and seems to be moving in the right direction at the right time. Most people love to download music and not go to the store and buy CD's , cool l support that as computer music in high res with a quality DAC has been the best thing I have heard since SACD was introduced all those years ago.
Also , Rotel needs to make a killer Universal Blu Ray player that competes with Oppo an Cambridge Audio. This is something that most people love when they can get a AVR or Pre / Pro system and a matching player.
If Rotel makes these moves , I would strongly consider going back to Rotel. I left them after the RSP1068 and RMB1095 combo I had all those years ago.

[madmac]

HDMI has been killing most companies. Rotel is no different. It seems it's extremely hard or expensive to get HDMI right.
Rotel doesn't offer attractive features in their receivers or Pre's anymore. I have been saying it for years they need to at least add some kind of room correction which would make a hard push for people like us to be attracted to.
Also look at the HDMI track record and failure rates , thats something no one wants to deal with.
B&K basically died due to HDMI and didn't offer enough tractive features and look where they are at now.
If Rotel wants to stay in business , they need to spend some money , get with the times and put out a AVR and Pre that everyone wants. Retain that sweet Rotel sound quality and make a statement on the market. They dug into ICE amps which I think is the way of the future so they are in the right direction at least here.

I say come out with a preamp and AVR that has Room correction , an App for control ,put a HOT USB DAC connection B style for High res music supporting up to 24/192. I think this would really put them back in the game. Computer music is hot right now and seems to be moving in the right direction at the right time. Most people love to download music and not go to the store and buy CD's , cool l support that as computer music in high res with a quality DAC has been the best thing I have heard since SACD was introduced all those years ago.
Also , Rotel needs to make a killer Universal Blu Ray player that competes with Oppo an Cambridge Audio. This is something that most people love when they can get a AVR or Pre / Pro system and a matching player.
If Rotel makes these moves , I would strongly consider going back to Rotel. I left them after the RSP1068 and RMB1095 combo I had all those years ago.

I agree. The HDMI thing sucks and the versions keep changing which is stupid. I mean, an RCA cable is an RCA cable and a Optical cable is an Optical one. However, no one can deny the Rotel 'sound' and the quality of their amps. I just think they are more musical amps and more designed with that in mind. No complaints there and I'll take that above any kind of Room correction or HDMI connectivity. But then again, I'm more of a music person than a video one.

[mglimabr]

I had a rsp-1570 and i always had the hdmi issue about delay on start the sound.. I couldnt use a hdmi splitter to duplicate 3D signal, although i know people who could... ( tryed 3)

So. I sold my rotel system and i bought Denon 3312Ci receiver with 2 Hdmi 3D output. I solve all my problems with hdmi and got more features... The sound quality isnt too good. I am using classe cap-2100 bypass to front channel now...

Ps. I dont use any audissey eq ony mu denon. All in flat...

[Industrial]

I had a rsp-1570 and i always had the hdmi issue about delay on start the sound.. I couldnt use a hdmi splitter to duplicate 3D signal, although i know people who could... ( tryed 3)

So. I sold my rotel system and i bought Denon 3312Ci receiver with 2 Hdmi 3D output. I solve all my problems with hdmi and got more features... The sound quality isnt too good. I am using classe cap-2100 bypass to front channel now...

Ps. I dont use any audissey eq ony mu denon. All in flat...

I have the 1570 and can use 3D

[mjb]

So. I sold my rotel system and i bought Denon 3312Ci receiver with 2 Hdmi 3D output. I solve all my problems with hdmi and got more features... The sound quality isnt too good.

And thats the point, Rotel might not have the features, their HDMi implementation is dubious, but boy does it sound good. Rotel have always been known for having the best sound for the money. If they could only sort out the other things.....

[chanlon]

Rotel as a company don't have the $$$ to be buying the latest in HDMI boards.
There lies the problem. Japanese mass market companies have the economies of scale to purchase the latest and greatest chipsets.

Rotel should take a look at Parasound and check out their business model.
Stay away from the processing end, and focus on what you are good at.
I don't think room correction and the latest codecs should be a focus.
Just my 2 cents.

As for Class D, yes they were heading into the correct direction. However, the only GREAT sounding Class D product they made was back in 2006 with the 1077. Ever since then, they sound worse and worse IMO.

[madmac]

And thats the point, Rotel might not have the features, their HDMi implementation is dubious, but boy does it sound good. Rotel have always been known for having the best sound for the money. If they could only sort out the other things.....

Yes.... they sound good and are very musical. That's the whole point in my view. Who care's about HDMI. All HDMI connectors go straight into my TV. My Rotel is a killer amp and blows away the competition. :W

[miner]

Since I am interested in 2.1 anyway, I think my Rotel offerings are fantastic. The whole 5.1, 7.1 is ever-changing and is tough to keep up with new revisions.

[Mikael]

I have the RSP1572, and it has the 2 sec. laps in sound when I have paused my BD and press play, and sometimes during a movie it has a electronic klicking sound. But that aside it sounds bloody good also in plain stereo.
I wish that Rotel will do like Parasound did with their P7 stereo preamp make a stereo preamp that has 7.1 input and 7.1 output. Then you'll have the best of both worlds.

[mglimabr]

I have the 1570 and can use 3D

I have 1 tv non 3D and 1 projector 3d. When i had the rotel i tryed 3 differents splitters ( included i 3d certified) to duplicate the hdmi and never had results on 3d... Only one out i had 3d but it didnt work for me... Bthe new denon receiver with 2 hdmi out solved my problem.. I lost the rotel quality and build but i got my entire system working flawless now...

The rsp-1572, could be great but here in brazil it cost more than 6.000 dollars, almost the same price that i paid for 1570 and sold for 4.000 dollars... Here this brand is so expensive...
And i redirected the investments on high end cd marantz reference and integrated classe. For home theater, denon its fine, and now i have a great system for stereo..

[ldgibson76]

Hello Rotel posters.

This is an interesting thread. Owning a Rotel 10 Series HDMI equipped processor, I have to say that other than the highly publicized 2 second audio signal delay with the digital inputs, I've yet to experience any HDMI video switching or signal passing issues. As a matter of fact, from the day one, the 1069 has been very reliable and problem free. I also employ an additional HDMI switcher to accommodate more HDMI capable devices.

Two of the devices that I route thru the switcher are 1080P/60 capable (Xbox 360 & HTPC). I also route my Apple TV 1st Gen(720P) thru the switcher. The HDMI out is routed to the HDMI 4 input on the Rotel. The other 3 inputs on the Rotel accommodate the blu-ray player, upscaling universal player and Fios HD/DVR STB.

Granted, none of my devices are 3D capable but the Blu-ray player does send a 1080P/24fps. I know the discussion has mentioned 3D signal switching and accommodation along with infamous 2 second digital audio signal delay that is a common trait with the Rotel processors and AVR's. I can say that I too experienced the delay with both HDMI and opitical, but not with S/PDIF. :huh:
To avoid the 2 second delay when listening to music, I route my music dedicated devices thru my DAC and analog it to the processor. No delays!

When it comes to movies and HDMI, the audio delay happens at the very beginning when the signal is first received/recognized by the processor and then, it's all good.

Based on what I have read in threads, it's likely that I would have the same experience if I were to upgrade to the current RSP-1572.

It's a matter of understanding what's important to you and to a certain extent, what your system's capabilities are. If the newest and greatest technology is the virtue, then Rotel may never be a viable option. My priority is audio quality. Video processing and routing, although very important, still falls behind audio quality. As long as my processor can switch and execute pass thru effectively without interfering with the signal, I'm good. Based on those parameters, for me Rotel fits the bill.

I know I will eventually integrate the 3D technology into my system, or better yet, once 4K becomes more mainstream, then it will undoubtedly be prudent to upgrade the system to accommodate the high bandwidth. As of now, there's only a few players in the Pre-Pro game that us mere mortals (meaning $2500 and under) can afford. Emotiva, Outlaw, Marantz, Onkyo/Integra, NAD, (Denon, if you recognize the pre-amp/amp disable feature in the 4311/4520).

I think Rotel is at a crossroads. Sellout and become a features first/audio quality/after-thought manufacturer or leave the video part behind altogether and be dedicated to the audio only market. DAC's, IA's, Pre amps w/HT pass through and stand-a-lone amplifiers. But in doing so, they risk losing the majority of their home theater customer base. They better act soon or they will go the way of Adcom, B&K, etc....

It's a shame too! Because I really dig the Rotel brand and product.

[Lex]

I suggest that you tell Rotel about these shortcomings via their customer response avenue on their web site, and be sure to tell them you started discussing it at HTGuide.com. Tell them if they want to learn what the consumer wants, to come on board with us, support us, and learn from us.

I owned a Rotel pre-amp and amp early on. I really liked them.

Doug

[chanlon]

They know all about it - trust me.
Yes, there is a benefit if all of us email them, or you can simply buy a brand that works out of the box.

HDMI is a pain, but a 2-3 second audio delay over HDMI for basically a 3rd generation product, is 100% inexcusable IMO.

I've spoken to Rotel in the UK, B&W Group in the US, all are aware.
It's a design decision. I simply chose a 2 Channel setup with a HT bypass for audiophile performance and use a Yamaha 3010 receiver for HT duties.
It works perfectly.

[mglimabr]

Once i used my Marantz Bd-7004 blu-ray 6ch analog audio out when i had the Rsp-1570 and the audio quality was incredible! No delay of course! That i missed!

[lradden]

Guys, I emailed Rotel and had a couple emails back and forth with one of their directors who was very informative and helpful. I linked him to HTGuide and he read the post here in this thread(and some others I'm sure) and he was very helpful in explaining Rotel's position regarding Auto-EQ/Room Correction. He also mentioned that Rotel is aware of the HDMI issues they've had in the past and that they are now on their 3rd generation of HDMI and that things have improved.

I won't post the conversation or give his name, but he was pretty adamant that Rotel doesn't believe in Auto-EQ and that they stand their ground regarding Auto EQ at the risk of loosing some customers.

"As for Auto-eq, we stand our ground even though we risk losing some customers."

Since it was a private conversion between the two of us I asked if it would be OK to post the news letter stating Rotel's position on Auto EQ, and he said it was OK.

Dear Legairre: Here is the excerpt I promised from one of our old newsletters. Enjoy! Best regards,

Auto-Eq – Boon or bane to home theater?

At Rotel, we have been asked many times why our audio/video receivers don’t feature an Auto-Eq set up. The short answer is that while these devices do change the sonic characteristics, we don’t believe that they provide a real sonic improvement at this level of product manufacturing. Further, that the cost of including this feature comes at the expense of overall audio performance. For the more complete answer, please read on.

The electronics industry continues to evolve at a remarkable pace and surround-sound electronics along with big screen TVs have brought the cinema experience home. However, not every new feature should be taken at face value as a real benefit. Auto EQ is the latest feature touted to add more value to home theater receivers. The premise of Auto EQ is that it takes the guesswork out of smoothing acoustic room variables through the use of a microphone and some digital signal processing. However, you don’t need to look much further than the comprehensive article from Keith Howard – “Anti-Node: Active Room-Acoustics Correction” in Stereophile – January 2008 http://stereophile.com/reference/108tech/ to understand how difficult this is to do well, even with far more expensive dedicated EQ systems.

While it might be construed that we are denigrating Auto-Eq because we don’t include it in any of our models, we stand behind our belief that this feature adds a cost factor that is far better off spent on higher performance parts, which can result in true sonic improvements. As an analogy, it is a bit like purchasing a Yugo automobile with heated leather seats, a powered sunroof, and 20" chrome wheels. The Yugo is then a little fancier than a basic Honda, but it still drives like a Yugo.

In fact, in some instances, auto-correction equalization can do more harm than good. This is due to the fact that digital EQ processing at this level is nowhere near as sophisticated as it needs to be. A manufacturer’s home theater receiver BOM (Bill Of Materials), will quickly show that they simply can’t afford to add the processing horsepower (cost of the chip) required to get the job done properly and still be competitive. The end result is that a value engineered Auto-EQ chip makes a guess about the worst offending frequencies, but by dramatically altering those sound waves, they also end up changing others that can affect the sound negatively.

If you are really concerned about getting the very best sound out of your home theater, or stereo system, you should consult a Rotel audio/video specialist. They know how it all goes together: how to position speakers in a room properly and how to set up your system’s software for bass management and speaker levels to get the best sound. If you are looking to achieve the absolute best in performance, they can also consult with you regarding room mode correction treatment materials, or on designing a proper acoustic environment from the ground up.

At Rotel, we have not ignored the importance of having some flexibility in controlling room modes. Did you know that the new 15 series components have very flexible bass management options? They can provide independent speaker configurations and crossover settings for each channel and surround mode. You can even create basic “notch filters” for troublesome frequencies. As an example, if you had a room node at 90Hz, you could set the speaker mains to roll off at 100 Hz and the subwoofer at 80Hz. For even more flexibility, there are contour adjustments at 10kHz and 100Hz that can be set independently for each channel. These are acoustic adjustments that can subtly improve the performance of your system without creating wider problems. However, there is simply no substitute for a home theater system that is designed and installed by knowledgeable experts.

I disagree with Rotel's stance on Auto-EQ, because I've had several products with it and they sound better than with out it including back in 2002 when I had a RSP-1066 that sounded horrible(IMO).

I love Rotel amps and as I explained to the rep I'll always buy Rotel amps, but as far as processors go I'm forced to look else where. I was recently looking to upgrade and wanted to go with Rotel but ended up going with an Anthem MRX300 receiver that uses ARC for room correction as a pre/pro because Rotel has no plans of offering room correction in their processors

[Kal Rubinson]

I disagree with Rotel's stance on Auto-EQ, ............................ because Rotel has no plans of offering room correction in their processors

I, too, disagree but I would be more sympathetic if the manual PEQ that is included was more flexible and comprehensive.

[chanlon]

I'm with Kal.

I've moved from a Rotel 1066/68/69 and 1570 to a Yamaha 3010 as a processor/preamp. Yamaha's room correction creates a much more balanced sound for my system. Plus, you get 9 amps to boot and HDMI switching that actually works.

It's a no brainer.

I love their 1077 Class D amp, plus their solid state amps.
I'll never buy another processor from them. Service is exceptional however.

[lradden]

Same here since the RSP-1066 back in 2002 I've had the following pre/pro and receivers all with room correction:

Sherwood P965(SNAP)
Pioneer Elite VSX-92TXH(MCACC)
Anthem MRX300 (ARC)

After having room correction there's no way I could buy something without it. As a consumer I want the option to either choose to use room correction or not. Until they offer it I can't buy any of their processors. I love Rotel amps, but IMO they've lost a lot of customers and will continue to loose even more.

On the up side the director I exchanged emails with did say Rotel has some new gear coming out that would excite us again. Thought without room correction I won't be excited about any of their processors.

[Kal Rubinson]

Thought without room correction I won't be excited about any of their processors.

They seem to be anti-AUTO room EQ, not EQ. Improving the PEQ would go far with me.

[Dmantis]

A few point Rotel made I actually agree with. Not all Auto EQ systems improve overall sound quality. There has been many systems I have Installed that actually sounded worse after Auto EQ which include ARC , YPAO , MCACC and Audyssey . Whats even more crazy is that every Bose lifestyle system I have Installed , their Auto EQ always Improved the overall performance of the system. They are the only ones you where the Mic's on your head like a pair of Headphones. They use 2 mic's instead of just one like everyone else.
Bose and Pioneer have been doing it longer then everyone else , most of the time MCACC makes minor improvements in not so great rooms.
YPAO seems to work well with some speakers and rooms , others it really sound awful.
Audyssey seems to work pretty well most of the time , but sometimes it seems to suck the life out of the system giving a very lifeless performance.
I'm also on the fence about ARC. I have Run ARC with the D2v2 , all the receivers and the subwoofers equipped. Honestly I'm very impressed with the sub bass kit performance as I have never heard it sound worse. The receivers also do a pretty good job as I haven't noticed a big dip in overall clarity or lack of mid range which I find in most others. But there has been rooms I did some pretty high end setups in and ran ARC 4 times and got 4 different results. The D2v2 seems to have the most issues with ARC which is strange from a flagship pre. This is also found when running flagship Paradigm speakers.

B&K did Notch filters years ago when they where in the game and honestly I always felt the system sounded it's best after calibration. never once did I calibrate a B&K anything and felt the system sounded worse. This is also with a wide range of speaker packages and room sizes including Sonus Faber , Vienna Accoustics , Mirage , Boston Acoustic's , Polk Audio , Dynaudio , B&W , Anthony Gallo , Revel to name a few.

If Rotel is offering Notch filters , I'd like to revisit one and give it a full test drive. It's been a very long time since I dug into Rotel. Bass is really the most important part of a calibration. I could easily live with just Notch filters , anyone who has Installed or owned B&K pre's or receivers can understand the quality of a good Notch filter system. Sometimes I think we all get caught up in Auto EQ , I for one enjoy using it but always compare it to a full manual calibration. I'm a professional Calibrator and have been doing calibrations for over 15 years. Honestly many of my systems end up with a manual calibration over a Auto EQ.
One thing I will go on record to say is when the Auto EQ works , it works very well , when it doesn't it sucks. It's really very hit of miss.

Everyone in here that has a Auto EQ system no matter what it is , try both ways and hear for yourself. You might be surprised in the outcome.

Now if Rotel can fix there HDMI issues , they might move up my list on future pre or AVR replacement as I upgrade often.

[Kal Rubinson]

One thing I will go on record to say is when the Auto EQ works , it works very well , when it doesn't it sucks. It's really very hit of miss.

I think that is inherent in the Auto part since it is mostly (but not entirely) beyond user control and none are perfect.

I was hoping to see Rotel adopt the PEQ that was used in the Classe SSP. Classe expressed the same reservations about AutoEQ (not surprising) but did include a useful manual option.

[madmac]

Guys, I emailed Rotel and had a couple emails back and forth with one of their directors who was very informative and helpful. I linked him to HTGuide and he read the post here in this thread(and some others I'm sure) and he was very helpful in explaining Rotel's position regarding Auto-EQ/Room Correction. He also mentioned that Rotel is aware of the HDMI issues they've had in the past and that they are now on their 3rd generation of HDMI and that things have improved.

I won't post the conversation or give his name, but he was pretty adamant that Rotel doesn't believe in Auto-EQ and that they stand their ground regarding Auto EQ at the risk of loosing some customers.

Since it was a private conversion between the two of us I asked if it would be OK to post the news letter stating Rotel's position on Auto EQ, and he said it was OK.



I disagree with Rotel's stance on Auto-EQ, because I've had several products with it and they sound better than with out it including back in 2002 when I had a RSP-1066 that sounded horrible(IMO).

I love Rotel amps and as I explained to the rep I'll always buy Rotel amps, but as far as processors go I'm forced to look else where. I was recently looking to upgrade and wanted to go with Rotel but ended up going with an Anthem MRX300 receiver that uses ARC for room correction as a pre/pro because Rotel has no plans of offering room correction in their processors

I actually agree with Rotel on this one. My system is calibrated by me, using an SPL meter and by using my ears as a guide. As well, my speakers are properly positioned for the best sound. I would not trust this procedure to a computer chip. When I get it right, I KNOW it's right because I did it right and of course, it sounds right. :T And, as Rotel said in their letter, Rotel has excellent bass management options within their menus.

Letting an auto EQ programs do this very important procedure to me is a lazy way out.

[wkhanna]

Not everyone has the confidence, nerve, expertise or equipment to calibrate their own system. And while it would be nice to have the house expert tech from the B&M boutique store you purchased your equipment from do the set-up, this is not the business model that matches current or future trend.

Sad to say this, but Rotel is shooting themselves in foot AFA AVR equipment is concerned.

[lradden]

In my room each of the receivers or pre/pros I've had that had Auto-EQ, it sounded much better and less boomy with the Auto EQ engaged than with it off. Every room is different that's why I wish they would offer Auto EQ and let the customer decide what works better in their room. It's a pretty common feature that even low priced AVRs have.

BTW, the director I spoke to also mentioned the cost of adding Auto-EQ, so it appears that there are monetary reasons why Rotel doesn't add Auto EQ as well as them feeling it hurts more than helps.

There is a cost for adding Auto-Eq and we would have to take that cost out of some other part of the design unless we wanted to charge more for our products.

[Kal Rubinson]

BTW, the director I spoke to also mentioned the cost of adding Auto-EQ, so it appears that there are monetary reasons why Rotel doesn't add Auto EQ as well as them feeling it hurts more than helps.

In most cases, it is a license fee as the algorithms are already available on most mainstream audio DSPs and only need to be activated.

I do not know which DSP is used by Rotel and, of course, some are much better (or worse) than others. The AutoEQ on the Cary processors, about which Cary expresses doubt in the user's manual, is mediocre and not of the capability of the known well-known EQs.

[Dmantis]

Not everyone has the confidence, nerve, expertise or equipment to calibrate their own system. And while it would be nice to have the house expert tech from the B&M boutique store you purchased your equipment from do the set-up, this is not the business model that matches current or future trend.

Sad to say this, but Rotel is shooting themselves in foot AFA AVR equipment is concerned.

Maybe thats the exact model Rotel is after. They are not Internet sold or direct , they are sold in dealers only and are of higher quality. When someone is purchasing Rotel/B&W level gear I think most of these people could afford the local Calibrator to come in and perform a professional calibration. As said on this thread , not everyone has the expertise to perform such a calibration. Nor has the time to learn about all the things it takes to get ones system to perform it's best.
A professional will guide one to the best possible system for the room they want to use it in and calibrate it to perfection.
I'm honestly not as concerned with Auto EQ as I am with HDMI issues with Rotel. Yes I think they should do a very nice Audyssey system or something along those lines to get at least in the game with others in their price class.
NAD is probably the closest competitor and they have been doing Auto EQ for years. It could be at the cost of a sale. I do agree this is costing Rotel a lot of business.
I can see both sides of this fence.

[carlsen]

Economic Reality

I think all companies these days have to take stock of economic realities and, although it is nice and perhaps sometimes a beneficial selling point to endeavour to be purist and philosphical, the harsh reality is that if you dont give the customer what they want - you dont have a sale - and then you dont have a company. Reminds me of a very famous watch company that ruled the world unquestionably - until digital watches came in and they refused to embrace!

I have several friends who can afford decent setups and wont blink at shelling out dollars on higher quality gear, but all of them are refusing to consider anything not offering auto EQ, even though I have offered to go around and help them setup manually ( and have done so previously ).

This concerns me as my setup is extensively Rotel and I wish to see Rotel remain in business and making a profit. But with at least 4 colleagues having recently purchased NAD pre/pros or Denon Receivers in the last 3 months, these were sales I could have easily influenced in Rotel's direction all but for the Auto EQ option ( by the way, I have no connections to sales or any commercial interest in HIFI sales/companies ).

So I say face the economic reality, offer auto EQ and ensure there is always an AutoEQ bypass option for those who dont choose to utilise it, and I am sure any expenses associated with its inclusion will be far outweighed by increased sales.

[lradden]

Even if the dealer sets up the speakers perfectly the room can still have a negative impact on sound quality. Things like the rooms size and shape, peeks, nulls and furniture all effect the room. No matter how well the speakers are placed by a Rotel dealer, without spending additional money to correct these issues you can still have a room that doesn't fix these problems. Most people aren't willing to totally rearrange furniture, pictures etc... to accommodate a processor not having room correction. It's much easier and cost effective to purchase a processor with room correction. I have a dedicated theater and I'm not willing to rearrange things when I can just choose another brand if Rotel won't offer room correction. Rotel has competition in the same price range and I just can't see buying a processor from them when I can get one with room correction and not have to rearrange room items or pay my dealer more money. I understand that the processor may have to be a high end AVR at the same price as a Rotel pre/pro, but what good is a Rotel pre/pro over a high end AVR if the pre/pro is IMO handicapped by not having a feature that allows me to not spend addition money to the dealer for room treatments and to rearrange a room that I like the way it is.

Also if I'm spending this additional money to the dealer (which won't be cheap) I might as well put that additional money into a another manufactures higher priced pre/pro with room correction. At least then if I move to a new house I don't have to pay the dealer all over again for room treatments and to set up and rearrange my room. IMO there's just no reason other than monetary, for Rotel not to offer room correction and let the customer decide whether to leave it on or off at the push of a button or an on screen menu item.

I own three Rotel amps an RMB-1095 and two RB-1050. I'd love to give them my money on a processor, but their stance isn't in my best interest when there are other options available from other manufacturers.

[Dmantis]

I hope Rotel is reading this thread.

[madmac]

To close, room correction uses a microphone. To me, that's a problem...because a mic is NOT the human ear!. The human ear is better. And, the mic is probably NOT studio quality and most likely cheap by comparison!!. If I used room correction (EQ) on a AVR or processor, I guarantee you that I would make additional adjustments after the fact. That being said, I would much rather start from scratch...setting the speakers up properly in their optimum positions (large or small settings), setting the AVR to tell it the proper distances of each speaker to the listener, using a SPL meter to set the volumes properly, and then EQ'ing the subs to eliminate room standing waves so they are minimalized. Using my ears as a guide in the end for other minor adjustments. :T

[lradden]

I disagree that the human ear is better. Many people hear frequencies better than others, due to things they have been exposed to throughout their lives(concerts, construction etc...). Also as we age out hearing deteriorates, so setting by ear is not a good way to accurately set up a system unless it's only used by that person. Otherwise everyone else who listens will have a different experience.

[ldgibson76]

Even if the dealer sets up the speakers perfectly the room can still have a negative impact on sound quality. Things like the rooms size and shape, peeks, nulls and furniture all effect the room. No matter how well the speakers are placed by a Rotel dealer, without spending additional money to correct these issues you can still have a room that doesn't fix these problems. Most people aren't willing to totally rearrange furniture, pictures etc... to accommodate a processor not having room correction. It's much easier and cost effective to purchase a processor with room correction. I have a dedicated theater and I'm not willing to rearrange things when I can just choose another brand if Rotel won't offer room correction. Rotel has competition in the same price range and I just can't see buying a processor from them when I can get one with room correction and not have to rearrange room items or pay my dealer more money. I understand that the processor may have to be a high end AVR at the same price as a Rotel pre/pro, but what good is a Rotel pre/pro over a high end AVR if the pre/pro is IMO handicapped by not having a feature that allows me to not spend addition money to the dealer for room treatments and to rearrange a room that I like the way it is.

Also if I'm spending this additional money to the dealer (which won't be cheap) I might as well put that additional money into a another manufactures higher priced pre/pro with room correction. At least then if I move to a new house I don't have to pay the dealer all over again for room treatments and to set up and rearrange my room. IMO there's just no reason other than monetary, for Rotel not to offer room correction and let the customer decide whether to leave it on or off at the push of a button or an on screen menu item.

I own three Rotel amps an RMB-1095 and two RB-1050. I'd love to give them my money on a processor, but their stance isn't in my best interest when there are other options available from other manufacturers.

So, are you implying that you'd be willing to spend, say,... $3000.00+ for a Rotel pre-pro that has a Auto-Room EQ feature along with all of the other bells and whistles i.e,... 4K upscaling, HDMI ARC, Network/Streaming and the like?

The reason I ask is because one would assume that if Rotel felt that it's customer base was willing the spend that kind of money on a product that offered those features, they'd have it on the market right now! A poster mentioned NAD as an example. Obviously, they believe there's justification for Auto Room EQ'ing and have had the feature for some time now. The most recent offering, NAD T 187. MSRP'd at $2999.00, it would seem that there NAD believes that there are customers that are willing to spend $3K+ for a upscale processor with Auto room correction technology.

I must agree that Rotel is missing the boat here. Enthusiast will pay the extra dough if they feel they are getting the best quality for their money. I have to believe that Rotel's RSP-15 Series Pre-Pro sales would be doubled possibly tripled had they produce a product that had a similar feature set to the NAD.

An indicator of a lack of enthusiasm for the Rotel product is lack of chatter about the Rotel in the other HT and Audio website forums. There's still interest in the amplification products but as far as pre-pros are concerned, other than this website, it's the sound of crickets!

[lradden]

So, are you implying that you'd be willing to spend, say,... $3000.00+ for a Rotel pre-pro that has a Auto-Room EQ feature along with all of the other bells and whistles i.e,... 4K upscaling, HDMI ARC, Network/Streaming and the like?!

If it also had stellar sound quality and software upgradable? Absolutely I'd be willing to pay 3K for it. :righton:

[madmac]

I disagree that the human ear is better. Many people hear frequencies better than others, due to things they have been exposed to throughout their lives(concerts, construction etc...). Also as we age out hearing deteriorates, so setting by ear is not a good way to accurately set up a system unless it's only used by that person. Otherwise everyone else who listens will have a different experience.

Well....let me say this. The system is yours. Like HDTV's, you have to adjust them so that it pleases YOU. You are the one that spent the money for it so it MUST please you. A cheap mic into room EQ technology is not going to necessarily please you.....I know that it would not work for me!. I have spent years 'tweaking' my system to get it right. (Minor adjustments to speaker placement.....EQ'ing etc) But, it was worth it and to be honest a lot of fun in the end. That is the whole fun of being into audio/video presentation. I simply would NOT trust a cheap Mic and computer technology to do that for me. Now....of course, if you do not know how to do that, then I would think that that would be the minority of Rotel owners........and.....I think they know that!. Rotel owners and above would know how to do that, and would want to know how to do it, and also know what sounds 'right'. :W

[lradden]

I can agree that using the Auto EQ and then tweaking to ones liking is cool. It's what a lot of us do. I thought you were saying you'd forgo the Auto EQ completely and do the whole calibration by ear.

[Kal Rubinson]

To close, room correction uses a microphone. To me, that's a problem...because a mic is NOT the human ear!. The human ear is better. And, the mic is probably NOT studio quality and most likely cheap by comparison!!. If I used room correction (EQ) on a AVR or processor, I guarantee you that I would make additional adjustments after the fact. That being said, I would much rather start from scratch...setting the speakers up properly in their optimum positions (large or small settings), setting the AVR to tell it the proper distances of each speaker to the listener, using a SPL meter to set the volumes properly, and then EQ'ing the subs to eliminate room standing waves so they are minimalized. Using my ears as a guide in the end for other minor adjustments. :T

The ear is not better and what you attribute to it here is really the influence of the brain. That includes biases, habit and adaptation.

What a room correction system, auto or manual, does is objective and what you are doing is subjective. I would much rather start my subjective adjustments from an objectively accurate basis. Of course, do what makes you happy.

[Industrial]

If it also had stellar sound quality and software upgradable? Absolutely I'd be willing to pay 3K for it.

Arg! That's close to what I DID pay for my 1570.