Best Speaker or upgrade for my RB-1080 based system...

[Bicklehoff]

Hi Folks, my first time here. I'm wondering what you think the next upgrade for my system should be (outside of starting all over). I bought all but the Amp around 2003 and the Amp around 2006 (I think I missed the fuse/channel issues). I am only a weekend warrior as far as understanding the equipment but my ears are far more advanced, I can hear the difference in set ups.

I had been running the whole thing through the receiver and it just didn't support my "turn it up to 11" late nights when the wife and kids were out of the house. I went in to get some new speakers and they said, "wow, you'd be better served with a new amp". I'm glad I took their advice. But now that I have the 1080 the speakers seem to me to be the next spot to change.

Also, I want a goal to work for, you know, for some inspiration. I think with my set up a good set of speakers would pretty much max out my capabilities without having to throw it all in and start over.

I'm not interested in surround sound or any of that, oddly I don't find I need it for my movie watching. Ideally I'd have a sound that is extremely well balanced, where the midrange doesn't just blend all together, where the highs still are distinct at loud volumes and where the bass is also distinct. I'm not into a "thumping" bass but something with more resonance (if that makes sense). Still, I would like it all to be a rich, full sound.

I don't really have a budget because I figure if I only upgrade my speakers the set up I have will dictate how much I spend on the speakers-would you agree? I figure my set up wouldn't do a $5000 pair of speakers justice. I'm guessing I'd max out at $3000 but could probably get away with $1500-$2500.

Finally, I'm open to other options like adding a sub or anything else. Where do you think I can get the most bang for my buck to max out what I already have.

Thanks a ton!

Describe your System(s):
RB 1080 Amp
RX-1050 Receiver
RDV-1040 CD Player
B&W CM2 speakers

[Bicklehoff]

I thought my current set up would show-here it is if not:

Describe your System(s):
RB 1080 Amp
RX-1050 Receiver
RDV-1040 CD Player
B&W CM2

[Audio_ElF]

My instinctive reply would be to go and audition a range of speakers such as the B&W CM9, Monitor Audio RX8, PMC GB1i and others similar that your local dealer has. If you can afford it within your budget - you could also look at replacing the RX-1050 with a pre-amp such as the RC1550 or RC1580.

Eloise

[miner]

Not much difference between 15 sereis and 10 series preamps in the Rotel line. Try to find a gently used RC-1082 or RC-1090 preamp. For speakers the CM9 mentioned above is a good start or a used Dynaudio Audeince/Focus line speaker. I used a pair of Dynaudio 52SE monitors with the Sub20A with great success - wonderful soundstage. I have sold the 52SE but sub is still available.

[TommyV]

Just another thought, I heard a system using CM5s and a REL sub and was completely floored by the sound. The REL sub has a proprietary connection for use in stereo setups. The sonics were completely seamless.

[srb]

If you basically like what you're hearing from the CM2s, as far as midrange and treble is concerned, but feel it is lacking a solid bottom end foundation, then the recommendation of a subwoofer is a good one.

If not, I would recommend several of the Salk Sound models for great sound and value:

SongTower QWT (dome tweeter) - $ 1795
SongTower QWT - RT (ribbon tweeter) - $ 2495

http://www.salksound.com/speakers_songseries_songtowerqwt.shtml

Veracity HT1-TL - $2995

http://www.salksound.com/speakers_veracity_ht1-tl.shtml

Salk Sound has a forum on AudioCircle, where you can read many threads about the speakers, and what speakers users have upgraded from.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=82.0

Steve

[Bicklehoff]

Thanks

Thanks a lot for the advice. I am sure I'll have some more questions once I have a chance to sit down online, thanks

[Nuthed]

Ist thing I would do is fine another dealer. If they talked you into buying a power amp when you had a receiver that puts out an honest 100wpc, instead of new speakers I have serious doubts about them.

They could and should have steered you to some larger, efficient speakers if you wanted it louder. While I like power, the thought of a dealer selling you a 200wpc amp to drive bookshelf speakers is ludicrous.

[TommyV]

I kind of agree. I would personally sell that amp and buy a REL sub. Just run the power off the stereo receiver. I run my bookshelves off an RB-1050 70x2 and it is more than enough power for me.

[Bicklehoff]

Well I guess I can't totally blame the dealer as I should have done my own due diligence. I'm glad I'm doing it now. I just spent impulsively for all the reason e may do that at times. Now having said that, one of the reasons I was an easy sell was that j envisioned myself someday having more "power". How much is enough then? It sounds for sure like my 100w + 200w is redundant. I can blast my stereo at 3 am and not bother the neighbors, and when I get the chance that's what I like to do. So with this info does it alter things any?

[cZwUV620]

I'm using a pair of Energy Reference RC-70 speakers with my RB-1080. The RB-1080 really makes them sing. I auditioned many speakers, including the CM9s, during that period. At their price, the 70's are a steal.

[Bicklehoff]

super helpful

thanks. So what's your take on the power amp discussion? Does it make a big difference compared to a 100w receiver? Is it overkill? What's the purpose of more power? is it just to make it perform better at loud levels or will it also add to quality at lower levels?

Is there a class or type of speaker that is only justified with more amperage / is there a class or type of speaker that simply does not justify more amperage (for example like bookshelf speakers)?

Thanks again for the info.

[theblue]

if it was me, but with your requirements:

sell the CM2 speakers and RX-1050. buy a dedicated pre-amp and go bigger on the speakers, maybe CM7 or 804 -- look for a good used deal on audiogon.

the deals on used stuff are so good with this bad economy!

[srb]

thanks. So what's your take on the power amp discussion? Does it make a big difference compared to a 100w receiver? Is it overkill? What's the purpose of more power? is it just to make it perform better at loud levels or will it also add to quality at lower levels?

Is there a class or type of speaker that is only justified with more amperage / is there a class or type of speaker that simply does not justify more amperage (for example like bookshelf speakers)?

I have a Rotel RSX-1056 receiver rated at 75W X 5 channels at 8 ohms and around 100W per channel with 2 channels driven. When I upgraded to a more powerful amplifier (RB-1080), there was more solidity to the bass, and when I turned it up loud, there was less harshness.

It is more about being able to acommodate the peaks at any volume. Each 3dB represents a doubling of power, and if you were crusing along at 1W and encountered a large dynamic peak of 30dB, the amplifier would need to deliver 1000W of power at that instance. Without "headroom", solid state amplifiers will clip the peak of the waveform and generate unpleasant harmonics and distortion.

The efficiency of the speaker also comes into play. A relatively inefficient 83dB speaker will require 8 times the wattage to play at the same volume as a 92dB speaker. Complex and high order passive crossovers also dissipate power and demand more powerful amplifiers.

Your CM2 is a medium efficiency (89dB) bookshelf speaker, but it is -3dB at 65Hz, so you will not be hearing deep solid bass without a subwoofer. As I said before, if you are happy with the sonics of your speaker's midrange and treble, get a subwoofer to augment them. If you can apply a high-pass filter to your speakers, you can decrease the load on them as well, and the midrange may improve.

However, if you find them a little harsh or bright in the top end, you may want to replace them with a pair of speakers that have a soft dome or ribbon tweeter, and perhaps larger floorstanders that can go lower if you don't want to add a subwoofer.

Steve

[Nuthed]

thanks. So what's your take on the power amp discussion? Does it make a big difference compared to a 100w receiver? Is it overkill? What's the purpose of more power? is it just to make it perform better at loud levels or will it also add to quality at lower levels?

Is there a class or type of speaker that is only justified with more amperage / is there a class or type of speaker that simply does not justify more amperage (for example like bookshelf speakers)?

Thanks again for the info.

I didn't mean to make it sound like you should sell the 1080. Now that you have it I would definitely get some speakers to take advantage of all that power. All I meant was that there are some smaller floorstanding speakers that would have been a great match for a 100wpc receiver. Like some Paradigm Monitor 7s or even 9s. Or they could have steered you to a powered sub.

Since you have the 1080 a set of Paradigm Studio 100s or even 60s would be a nice match. And both are in your budget.

p.s. Yes I am biased to Paradigm speakers. I just love the Paradigm "house sound". :T

[TommyV]

I personally think you should think about selling either the amp or the receiver. Right now you have a separates setup but the great amp section is not being utilized in the receiver that is being used as a preamp.

The RX-1050 snatches a really good price on audiogon because they are rare. Especially if it is silver. I thought about picking one of those up many times. You could take that money and purchase a RC-1070 for cheap. Those are great units. There is also the RC 1082 but I think those are priced quite a bit higher.

My vote is still on a REL sub to mesh with your CM1s. The REL T3 ($600), T2 ($800) or T1 ($1k) would really round out your system. You could always still upgrade your speakers at a later date if you feel the need. I think adding a quality musical sub first is the most cost effective way to achieve what you are after and still have excellent sound quality.

[Bicklehoff]

Thanks so much for the feedback, I can't tell you how much better I feel actually having some knowledge and guidance with what I'm doing. I'm going to take this as a starting point to get more educated and to try all the recommendations. Also, now that I am taking my time with the purchase I'll be able to find what I want at the best price. On that note has everyone found good results going used? Is there a great risk of getting damaged product? Especially with speakers I wonder how much a risk it is to go used? Thanks again.

[Bicklehoff]

the blue, thanks for the advice, I guess something like that was what I was originally thinking

Steve, thanks for the technical info and recommendations. I need to find out what a "low pass filter" is. The CM2's are great to my ears, especially for the price, I think it was around $700 for the two. I remember my dad's old JBL's back in the late 70's paired with a big pioneer receiver and just loved the full sound. That was what I was thinking. I think I'll try to borrow a sub from someone and see what that does.

Nuthead, thanks again, you woke me up. Time to not be so prideful and to start asking questions and listening. Also time to take more time and not jump into these purchases. I will definitely check out paradigm.

TommyV, i'll borrow a good sub and see what I think. You mention my "CM1s" but they are really CM2s. Does that change things? My wife certainly would like your approach, as it is the most cost effective. That part sounds good to me too, especially since, like you say, I can upgrade speakers down the road if I wanted. Would having a sub to pair with future speakers limit/expand/change what I might get down the road if I did eventually get new speakers? I'm guessing some speakers pair better with a sub than others? Also, is it common (or OK) to have a sub that is more expensive than the speakers themselves?

Thanks one more time!

[srb]

On that note has everyone found good results going used? Is there a great risk of getting damaged product? Especially with speakers I wonder how much a risk it is to go used? Thanks again.

I have made many used purchases, and so far, I have neither experienced faulty or damaged equipment. (Knock on wood!). But other people have had disappointing nightmares.

The larger and heavier the item, the greater the risk of damage. Floorstanding speakers are generally the greatest risk. It all depends on the packing skills and regimen of the seller. Speakers (or any component) packed in peanuts are not acceptable. They require solid sheets of foam. Look for sellers that have original factory packing materials, or are willing to pack in 2"-3" of foam, and ask that they double box or offer to pay extra for it.

I made one purchase of an expensive ($3K) used pair of floorstanding speakers. The seller had the original factory boxes and packing, which included 2"-3" of resilient foam, then he additionally built crates around them with 1/4" OSB and 1X2's. While I don't expect all sellers to do that, it sure was nice!

I have seen many photographs of damaged speakers that were only packed with peanuts. Usually experienced sellers that understand the risks will take the extra steps and pack it just like they would like to receive it.

Good luck!

Steve

[srb]

Bicklehoff,

Looks like you might be headed toward a sub! Yes, a sub could cost more than the main speakers. For music, you want a sub that can produce beautiful, tight and musical bass and drum notes. I have a rather cheap subwoofer for Home Theatre use that provides enough of an effect for Jurassic Park and explosions, but I don't use it for music.

There are several ways you can connect a subwoofer. Some subs only have 'line-level' RCA input(s) and some have 'high-level' speaker inputs as well.

1. A Home Theatre receiver/processor has a built-in low-pass and high-pass filter. (I mistakenly said low-pass in my previous post, when I meant high-pass, and have corrected it). Let's say you decide that the crossover point between the subwoofer and the main speakers will be 80Hz. The subwoofer, through a low-pass filter, will be sent only the frequencies of 80Hz and lower. The main speakers, through a high-pass filter, will be sent only the frequencies of 80Hz and higher. In this scenario, a subwoofer output on the receiver is connected to an RCA input on the subwoofer.

By relieving the requirement of the main speakers to play bass below 80Hz, they may play with less distortion, and not having to try and reproduce the low bass, may have a clearer midrange as well.

2. Most 2-channel preamps, integrated amplifiers and receivers do not have built in crossovers (although there are certainly models out there that do). In that case, many subwoofers have high-level speaker inputs, so that the main speaker output of the amplifier connects to a pair of binding posts on the subwoofer, and the speakers connect to another pair of binding posts on the subwoofer. In this scenario, the subwoofer provides high and low pass filtering internally.

3. The third scenario is one used by the REL subwoofers. The main speakers are connected to the amplifier or receiver and run full-range. The subwoofer also connects to the same amplifier speaker posts through a set of small wires to derive the bass output. It is a very high impedance load, and therefore does not affect the main speakers. Although this scenario does allow the main speakers to run full-range, the REL implementation is very effective at filling in the low end while not actually routing the main speakers through the subwoofer.

As far as particular speakers blending better with a sub, generally ported speakers (having a gentle-sloped gradual rolloff) are used without a subwoofer, and sealed speakers (having a steeper sloped rolloff) are used with a subwoofer. Your B&W's come with foam port plugs that may be beneficial when used in combination with a subwoofer.

Steve

[TommyV]

Thanks so much for the feedback, I can't tell you how much better I feel actually having some knowledge and guidance with what I'm doing. I'm going to take this as a starting point to get more educated and to try all the recommendations. Also, now that I am taking my time with the purchase I'll be able to find what I want at the best price. On that note has everyone found good results going used? Is there a great risk of getting damaged product? Especially with speakers I wonder how much a risk it is to go used? Thanks again.

I personally would now want to buy large speakers off eBay or audiogon. Maybe some decent sized bookshelves but that is just me. I like to get new but I have purchased many amps/preamps or other components that were pre owned and have had great luck. I have also sold even more gear through those sites when I upgrade. I know everyone who has purchased my gear was extremely happy because I take extremely good care of my equipment.

[TommyV]

3. The third scenario is one used by the REL subwoofers. The main speakers are connected to the amplifier or receiver and run full-range. The subwoofer also connects to the same amplifier speaker posts through a set of small wires to derive the bass output. It is a very high impedance load, and therefore does not affect the main speakers. Although this scenario does allow the main speakers to run full-range, the REL implementation is very effective at filling in the low end while not actually routing the main speakers through the subwoofer.

It is funny, I probably sound like a REL fanboy but I had just never even heard of REL let alone heard one in action until a few weeks ago my dealer had a pair of B&W CM5s and REL T1 running off a Rotel RC-1580/RB-1592/RCD-1520 stack using the REL proprietary connection you are describing.

I was so impressed with how well balanced this 2.1 system that I am ordering a pair of CM5s and very soon will order a REL T2 or T3 to finish it out. I have been planning a speaker/sub upgrade for some time but was not planning on spending quite that much. After hearing the=is combo working together I knew my search was over.

[Bicklehoff]

Once again thanks for the input. I think it will be a month or two before moving forward, but i'll post back once done.

thanks.