HD format war is over

[Mikael]

Now that Blue Ray has won the war.I'll hope we will se a Rotel bd player soon,and a new processor that can decode DTS master HD.I know that you can buy a player wich can decode it,and get it through HDMI,but it is not that many players that will be able to decode DTS HD master.And I prefer the decoding done in my processor,so you be able to bass manegment and cinema EQ and all the other stuff+ you will get a better sound IMO.

[littlesaint]

Now that Blue Ray has won the war.I'll hope we will se a Rotel bd player soon,and a new processor that can decode DTS master HD.I know that you can buy a player wich can decode it,and get it through HDMI,but it is not that many players that will be able to decode DTS HD master.And I prefer the decoding done in my processor,so you be able to bass manegment and cinema EQ and all the other stuff+ you will get a better sound IMO.

Decoding in the processor has nothing to do with BM or EQ. When processing in the player, you are simply decompressing the audio file and sending the raw PCM (still digital) via HDMI to the processor. All processing still occurs as the signal is still in the digital domain. There are a few AVRs that don't support full processing on multichannel PCM, but these are at the low end of the spectrum and surly not a concern with Rotel equipment.

Another issue is if you utilize secondary audio streams for special features, you will lose HD audio capability if you don't decode in the player.

[Mikael]

I know that the decoding it self don't have anything to do with BM and EQ,but if you get the decoded single from the player through HDMI you can't apply EQ to the signal.
2nd. decoding in the processor don't mean loosing the HD audio,just look at Denon's new pre/power combo and Blueray drive only,all the decoding is done in the processor.It just mean a shorter signal route from source to output.

[littlesaint]

I know that the decoding it self don't have anything to do with BM and EQ,but if you get the decoded single from the player through HDMI you can't apply EQ to the signal.
2nd. decoding in the processor don't mean loosing the HD audio,just look at Denon's new pre/power combo and Blueray drive only,all the decoding is done in the processor.It just mean a shorter signal route from source to output.

I decode in the player. My AVR applies BM, EQ, and any other digital processing I choose. The signal is still digital. It's just PCM instead of an encoded bitstream. If you decode in the pre/pro, all you are doing is moving the decompressing to the pre/pro. It sends that exact same PCM to the DSP to apply EQ.

What Denon doesn't tell you is that when you choose a feature that requires a secondary audio stream, it decodes a lossy form of the primary audio track to mix with the secondary and then re-encodes in a lossy format. It is no longer the original HD stream.

[Mikael]

Here is the tech stuff from Denon.
Denon DVD-2500BTCI Blu-ray Transport
by J. Walker Clarke, Jr. — last modified September 11, 2007 07:52
Filed under: Transports

Denon DVD-2500BTC
We were excited to see Denon's new Blu-Ray Transport, the DVD-2500BTCI, at the CEDIA 2007 expo. This is a product we can't wait to get our hands on for testing, and it's fall release will be highly anticipated by many Denon fans.

The DVD-2500BTCI is a leading edge Blu-ray Disc Transport that allows owners of advanced A/V receivers to add Blu-ray capability to their system and enjoy high definition video. The DVD- 2500BTCI will natively output an HD audio bit-stream to a connected receiver via HDMI. Once this signal is accepted in the receiver, it can then be decoded into its native format including Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio.

In keeping with the guidelines mandated by the Blu-ray Association for BD-ROM Profile 1 version 1.1 players, the DVD-2500BTCI will incorporate a secondary audio and video decoder. This allows for simultaneous playback of a secondary audio and video track which may be used for interactive audio and commentary and for picture-in-picture capability (respectively). Additional information (subtitles, audio streams, camera angles, trailers, games, etc.) can be downloaded from the Internet via computer and stored on a SD card that the player will accept. This content can be played with the original content of Blu-ray Discs. The DVD-2500BTC will carry a MSRP of $1,199 and is scheduled to ship this fall.

The DVD-2500BTCI delivers attention-grabbing picture and sound quality with high-definition Blu-ray Discs. This powerful player can output video at 1080p resolution and 24 frames per second for the best possible picture from today's most advanced TVs. It supports the latest Blu-ray format enhancements, which allow features such as picture-in-picture with upcoming Blu-ray titles. And it's made by Denon — a company renowned for using top-notch construction and circuitry to guarantee superlative audio/video performance.

Read More
Rock-solid construction
Denon knows that any interference or resonance can hinder a player's performance, so they designed the '2500 to completely reject outside noise and vibration. It sports a highly rigid chassis with a double-layered top plate and triple-layered bottom plate, finished with a sturdy aluminum front panel (see illustration). A newly designed transport mechanism, supported by a metal damper and tray guide, keeps the disc stable for error-free playback.

Blu-ray: a format designed for a better picture
High-capacity Blu-ray Discs can each hold up to five times as much information as a regular DVD. A Blu-ray player can send this digital information to your TV at a much faster rate than a DVD player. In fact, Blu-ray signals have up to twice the bandwidth of broadcast HD signals. The result is picture quality with flawless clarity and true-to-life texture and depth.

Better sound, too
Blu-ray Discs include cutting-edge audio as well as high-definition video, and the '2500 lets you enjoy these advanced new soundtracks in all their high-resolution glory. Just connect the player via HDMI to your receiver with Dolby® Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, or DTS-HD™ Master Audio decoding, and you'll enjoy audio with much greater detail than what you've heard with DVD. Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio even feature "lossless" compression for the most accurate reproduction of the movie theater soundtrack.

Learn about the ins and outs of HDMI connections at CrutchfieldAdvisor.com.
Shop our selection of HDMI cables.

Details:
plays Blu-ray high-definition discs (selectable output resolution: 720p/1080i/1080p signals available through HDMI output)
plays DVD-Video, DVD-R & DVD-RW, and DivX® (v6.0) discs
plays CD, audio CD-R & CD-RW, and MP3 & WMA CDs
plays digital photo CDs (JPEG/Kodak/Fuji)
selectable 720p/1080i/1080p video upconversion for DVD
supports Blu-ray Disc Final Standard Profile (Profile 1 Version 1.1) for added bonus features with compatible discs
built-in audio decoding to PCM for Dolby Digital and DTS
multichannnel uncompressed PCM output via HDMI
bitstream audio output via HDMI for Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master Audio
BD-Java interactive capability
HDMI digital output (combines video and multichannel audio with HDCP copy protection)
HDMI version 1.3a with Deep Color support
SD memory card slot
RS-232C port for third part controllers
IR input and output for remote repeater systems
rigid construction with dual-layered top shields and triple-layered bottom shields
newly designed disc mechanism protects against magnetic influences, dust, and external vibration
S.V.H. (Suppress Vibration Hybrid) loader ensures stable disc rotation
aluminum front panel
remote control
17-1/8"W x 5-1/2"H x 16-15/16"D
warranty: 1 year
Want more peace of mind? Extended Service Plans Available
viewing high-definition Blu-ray content requires an HDTV or HD-ready TV
plays "Region 1" DVDs and "Region A" Blu-ray Discs only
this player has no analog outputs
Top of page



For more information: http://www.usa.denon.com/

[littlesaint]

...
In keeping with the guidelines mandated by the Blu-ray Association for BD-ROM Profile 1 version 1.1 players, the DVD-2500BTCI will incorporate a secondary audio and video decoder. This allows for simultaneous playback of a secondary audio and video track which may be used for interactive audio and commentary and for picture-in-picture capability (respectively). Additional information (subtitles, audio streams, camera angles, trailers, games, etc.) can be downloaded from the Internet via computer and stored on a SD card that the player will accept. This content can be played with the original content of Blu-ray Discs. ...

Every word is true. What they fail to mention is that when you enable a secondary audio track, it has to be mixed with the primary. This requires both tracks to be decoded (ironic), mixed, and either output as raw PCM or re-encoded using a DD or DTS encoder. If the "transport" doesn't have decoders for HD audio codecs, it has to use the DD or DTS track for this purpose which would eliminate any HD audio.

[Fishy]

Knowing the rate at which Rotel bring out new kit, I'd be surprised to see anything in the next couple of years.

Fish

[Ferres]

"this player has no analog outputs"
Bummer if you don't have hdmi.

[bzrk]

Knowing the rate at which Rotel bring out new kit, I'd be surprised to see anything in the next couple of years.

Fish

Now that the format war is over. Rotel will probarly wait for the final bluray player profile. So yes we have to wait another 2 years at least.

GO ROTEL :

A PS3 is your best buy for now. Too bad it doesnt come with a rotel frontface.

[hifiguymi]

I don't where Rotel is in terms of development on a BD player, but I do know that most specialty manufacturers can't get their hands on crucial parts like transports right now. We have had major supply problems with BD players from both Sony and Pioneer. Most of it, from what I understand, is a shortage of transports and laser diodes. If the companies that make most of the major parts don't have enough for their machines, then companies like Rotel, Classe, NAD, Krell, etc don't stand a chance of getting them.

Eric

[Mikael]

Hi littlesaint

I don't think you have read the tech stuff correct.If what you say is to be true Denon would have made a useless HD Drive!
The Denon drive has a secondary decoder DD and DTS only to take care of the extra features you can download from the web.It will send that decoded info along the undecoded bit stream to the Processor.Thereby taking full advantage of the DTS HD Master and Advance and true HD decoder in the Processor.

[Hdale85]

Isn't it required to have the decoder built into your player to actually use the lossless formats? Because the security in BD won't allow you to send the signal to the processor so it either has to be decoded in the player or you use lossy formats. I've heard of a couple players bypassing this but you can't add different language tracks to it that way. Which for me doesn't matter but for others could. Honestly I doubt Rotel will come out with anything for a long while. I would look elsewhere.

[littlesaint]

Hi littlesaint

I don't think you have read the tech stuff correct.If what you say is to be true Denon would have made a useless HD Drive!
The Denon drive has a secondary decoder DD and DTS only to take care of the extra features you can download from the web.It will send that decoded info along the undecoded bit stream to the Processor.Thereby taking full advantage of the DTS HD Master and Advance and true HD decoder in the Processor.

It doesn't work like that. You can't send two separate audio streams. It's one stream either encoded (or re-encoded in this case) or PCM.

[littlesaint]

Isn't it required to have the decoder built into your player to actually use the lossless formats? Because the security in BD won't allow you to send the signal to the processor so it either has to be decoded in the player or you use lossy formats. I've heard of a couple players bypassing this but you can't add different language tracks to it that way. Which for me doesn't matter but for others could. Honestly I doubt Rotel will come out with anything for a long while. I would look elsewhere.

Most of the Blu-ray players support bitstream output, since before the 1.1 profile which added secondary decoders, there was no absolute real need for in-player decoding.

[Mikael]

Well I will take Denons word over yours, I don't think they would make a HD transport with no decoder built in if you by doing so not would be able to get the DTS master or advance audio.The only way to get those is to use the decoder in the processor.And since there is no decoder for that in the transport.you will have to use the one in the processor.

[littlesaint]

Well I will take Denons word over yours,

I'm not disputing what Denon says. I'm just filling in the gaps. It is what it is. If you have the money, buy one and find out for ourself.

I don't think they would make a HD transport with no decoder built in if you by doing so not would be able to get the DTS master or advance audio.The only way to get those is to use the decoder in the processor.And since there is no decoder for that in the transport.you will have to use the one in the processor.

Pretty convenient for Denon since they sell processors too.

[hifiguymi]

Isn't it required to have the decoder built into your player to actually use the lossless formats? Because the security in BD won't allow you to send the signal to the processor so it either has to be decoded in the player or you use lossy formats.

The short answer is no. Players are all over the board in terms of capabilities in this regard. With a player like the Sony BDP-S300 that player doesn't support lossless audio in any form (except for discs that have uncompressed PCM tracks on them). All you get is Dolby Digital (at 640kbps) or dts (at 1.5Mbps). It doesn't matter if you set the player to Auto (or bitstream out) or PCM, it's only going to be DD or dts.

With a player like the Pioneer Elite BDP-95FD, if you set the output to Auto, you get raw bitstream output for DD+, Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD, and dtsHD Master Audio (in addition to DD and dts). If you set it to PCM, it will decode everything internally except dtsHD Master Audio. It doesn't have a decoder built in that will decode dtsHD Master Audio.

The Denon DVD-2500BTCI (the transport only) is the same as the Pioneer in that it doesn't decode dtsHD Master Audio internally. It will decode everything else internally however. It will also output all formats in bitstream to be decoded in the receiver/processor.

The Denon DVD-3800BDCI will decode everything in the player and output it PCM in addition to outputting raw bitstream data to be decoded in a receiver/processor.

If someone wants to use the interactive features on either of the Denon pieces, it, as littlesaint says, has to be decoded in the player. There is no way around that.

Honestly I doubt Rotel will come out with anything for a long while. I would look elsewhere.

I think you're right. With talking to my rep and the guys in tech support, one of the problems Rotel is having is getting their hands on a transport to even begin development on a player. Until things ramp up this year on BD transports that will be the case for the little guys like Rotel.

Eric

[Hdale85]

If someone wants to use the interactive features on either of the Denon pieces, it, as littlesaint says, has to be decoded in the player. There is no way around that.

Yeah this is what I was talking about is that a lot of the features are not supposed to be availible unless the player has an internal decoder. I'm going to take a guess and say that most of the best players are going to decode internally and output the raw PCM. Also this is what I'll be looking for in a player when I get around to purchasing one. Currently my PC BD drive is working pretty well.

[Mikael]

Maybe we don't see a BD player or transport soon from Rotel!But I really hope that Rotel will make a new processor that can decode DTS HD Master and advanve and True HD.I know that Cirrus Logic has a new chip CS 49700 that can do all that, and since it is a Cirrus Logic chip they use in RSP 1098,it shouldn't be that difficult or expensive to do.Maybe a 1099 or 1598?

[Hdale85]

Honestly all you need is a processor that can take raw PCM over HDMI. There is really no need to have the decoder outside of the player. All the decoder does is decode the signal into raw PCM and sends the PCM to the receiver. It's still digital so there is no loss in quality and its still lossless.

[littlesaint]

Maybe we don't see a BD player or transport soon from Rotel!But I really hope that Rotel will make a new processor that can decode DTS HD Master and advanve and True HD.I know that Cirrus Logic has a new chip CS 49700 that can do all that, and since it is a Cirrus Logic chip they use in RSP 1098,it shouldn't be that difficult or expensive to do.Maybe a 1099 or 1598?

That Cirrus chip seems to be the processor of choice for new pre/pros. However, last I heard it is delayed and holding up a lot of new hardware releases. Emotiva is using that chip and is currently in a holding pattern, last I heard.

[Mikael]

IMO there is a need for a processor that can decode all the new audio formats,and that is better sound quality.From my experience the decoder in the player are not as good as the ones in a processor.I really like the idea of an HD transport and the decoding done in the processor.

[Mikael]

I fund this explanation and grahpic at DTS homepage.

http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-master-audio-with-new-receiver.php

DTS Master Audio with new DTS-HD Master Audio Receiver

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How do I connect it?
High Definition Player with DTS-HD Advanced Digital Out to New AV Receiver with DTS-HD Master Audio




You can enjoy DTS-HD Master audio by upgrading to a Blu-ray Disc or HD-DVD player with DTS-HD Advanced Digital Out and new AV Receiver with DTS-HD Master Audio decoding. Simply connect the player and receiver with an HDMI cable. The DTS-HD bit stream will pass through the player and HDMI cable to be decoded by the AV receiver. Both player and AV receiver will need to be equipped with new HDMI Version 1.3* outputs and inputs. This way you can enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio at up to 7.1 channels at 96 k/24 bit sound that is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master.
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[littlesaint]

IMO there is a need for a processor that can decode all the new audio formats,and that is better sound quality.From my experience the decoder in the player are not as good as the ones in a processor.I really like the idea of an HD transport and the decoding done in the processor.

There is no issue of quality when decoding HD audio codecs. It is not the same as D->A conversion or the application of DSP. They are lossless codecs, so the end result is an either exact match to the original or you get nothing. There is no good, better, best.