How much power do I really need?

[slowrey]

Hi everyone, I am quite a newbie to this world but I've always been a home theater enthusiast. The receivers I've owned were Sansui, Sony ES, Pioneer Elite and Integra Research.

I'm at a dilemma, I currently have a RSX-1057 in my house running NHT SB3's for fronts, SC2 for center and SB3's for rear, along with my Velodyne SPL1200 for the sub.

What I'm looking for is amp advice for the current setup and also for my future setup. In the next four months I'm looking to buy the new NHT Classic Series as listed below:

Here's my current lineup: All are 86-87 sensitivity

Front: NHT SB3's
Center: NHT SC2
Surrounds: NHT SB3's

Future setup: All are 86-87 sensitivity

Front: NHT Classic Fours (towers)
Center: NHT 3C
Surrounds: NHT Classic Threes
Rears: NHT Classic Threes

My home theater room is smallish it's only 15x12 so it's not a monster however it does have an entire wall that is covered with cotton twill drapes from the 10 foot ceiling to the floor.

I know my RSX-1057 has 75 watts per channel for five channels but I've been thinking about upgrading. I know it's only been a week but I got my bonus so I'm very Rotel infected. I've been looking at either the 1070 or the 1080 amp to put on the fronts or buying the 1075 to replace all 5 channels.

Here are the two scenarios I was thinking:

RSX-1057
1080 for front - 200 watts
1095 for the rest - 200 watts
$3,000 invested

or

RSX1057
1080 for front - 200 watts
1075 for the rest - 125 watts
$2,000 invested

The local store recommended I buy the 1095 and use it to bi-amp my fronts and the extra channel for my center and then just leave everything else alone.

What would you do? How much power do I truly need? What combination do you recommend?

[revelman]

It depends on your surround speakers. If they are not too hard to drive, i recommend the 1080 to power your fronts and use a 1075 for everything else. Since your room is small, the 1075 is a better investment.

[Amphiprion]

Combination 2, definitely. Screw the passive biamp idea, that's a huge waste of money. Save the 1k for your next processor upgrade. I might even go with the 1070 over the 1080. I don't see any reason for 200w into the speakers you're using. Is 2dB more output really worth all that cash?

[slowrey]

Well also remember that the future holds NHT Classic Fours which like all of the NHT line aren't very efficient. 86 SPL if I can remember correctly.

Here's my current lineup:

Front: NHT SB3's
Center: NHT SC2
Surrounds: NHT SB3's

Future setup:

Front: NHT Classic Fours (towers)
Center: NHT 3C
Surrounds: NHT Classic Threes
Rears: NHT Classic Threes

[Amphiprion]

Honestly, I think NHT just rates their speakers more honestly than other companies. I know most of the two-ways I build are in the 85-87dB range, and my designs use very standard and popular drivers (Peerless, Vifa, Seas). I think people pay a lot for power they don't really use. If amps came with VU meters these days I think few people would splurge for anything more than 50-100 watts. Now, since amps last practically forever, you may consider going with the 200 watters in case you ever get some really inefficient speakers in the future.

Good choice on speakers, btw. NHT has always been a good company with quality offerings. I particularly like the SuperOne/SuperTwo/2.5i/2.9 back when I was looking at commercial speakers. 2.x series were just slightly bright for me, but I admittedly like a bit of tweeter padding.

BTW, whatever you do, you HAVE to get the black+silver center section Rotel amps. Pure sweetness (hey, looks matter too )

[slowrey]

Honestly, I think NHT just rates their speakers more honestly than other companies. I know most of the two-ways I build are in the 85-87dB range, and my designs use very standard and popular drivers (Peerless, Vifa, Seas). I think people pay a lot for power they don't really use. If amps came with VU meters these days I think few people would splurge for anything more than 50-100 watts.

Good choice on speakers, btw. NHT has always been a good company with quality offerings. I particularly like the SuperOne/SuperTwo/2.5i/2.9 back when I was looking at commercial speakers. 2.x series were just slightly bright for me, but I admittedly like a bit of tweeter padding.

I'll be selling a bunch of SuperOne's, SuperTwo and SuperCenter to finance my new Classic line.

So what's your recommendation on which power and options???

[Amphiprion]

Hey, when it comes to speakers it's all personal preference What shops in Austin sell NHT these days? It's been a while since I've gone on a audio shop crawl.

[slowrey]

Hey, when it comes to speakers it's all personal preference What shops in Austin sell NHT these days? It's been a while since I've gone on a audio shop crawl.

Actually none, I'll order it mail order unfortunately, it's very irritating that A&B TV advertises that they sell NHT on their website even though that they don't.

[cfrizz]

I would go with the 1080 & 1095. This is what I have discovered since I started upgrading my power supply & it's not all about volume.

I know definately heard a huge increase in clarity, bass, vocals & instruments going from my 110 wpc Denon receiver & my 200wpc Parasound. I have heard a more subtle difference between my 200wpc Parasound and my 405wpc Sunfire.

Now all of my speakers are very easy to drive, but they & I have enjoyed the difference all of that power makes.

The biggest improvement came with going to 200wpc. If you are into music listening & have good ears you should notice the difference immediately.

Good luck with your decision.

[Dmantis]

In that room does the 1057 not power them good enough? Can you not achieve the level and clarity you want??

If I was going to add amps, I would match them. I would use the 1080 and 1095 together or the 1070 and 1075 together.

Maybe take a look over your system before you drop money in amps. See if there is anything else your money can upgrade to make the experience better like cables or a better dvd player. Hows the monitor looking?

Dan

[shadow]

The 1057 will drive all the bookshelves fine. The 1080 would be a nice upgrade later esp if you go with Classic 4 mains. Unless you are getting 20% off the external amps, I would not buy them since you can always buy them later if needed, which I doubt. I drive ML Aeon with my 1056 quite well xover at 80 hz to a sub. I recently bought a used 1080 for the mains which resulted in a minor but noticable improvement.

[WI Rotel]

RMB 1095 is the solution for any top flight surround system. The overwhelming majority of surround systems are 5.1. 7.1 is little more than a gimmick IMO since there is no material recorded in anything more than 5.1 anyway thus if you want to hear it as the recording engineer intended it to be 5.1 is the thing. The 1095 will drive any speaker at any sound level. Nothing will ever sound compressed due to lack of power during a transient, it is simply a bottomless barrel of power. When tested the amp will deliver up to 330watts RMS at any frequency with less than 1% distortion, that my friend is all the power toull ever need.

[Kevin D]

WI,

I'm sorry you don't feel 6.1 or 7.1 is worth it and you're welcome to state that, but please don't make replies with inaccurate information.

DTS-ES is current format that can have a true 6.1 soundtrack, something the recording engineer spent time on and wants it to be 6.1. A variant (of DTS-ES) and Dolby-EX are both matrixed 6.1 sources to save space on the disc, but both too are engineered to be 6.1 sources that are backward compatible on 5.1 system.

The new Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD formats coming on HD-DVD and Blu-ray can both be full 7.1 sources. Add in Dolby's PLIIx which can be applied to regular Dolby and Dolby-EX and I believe 7.1 is here to stay. I don't think it's a gimmick any more then going from Dolby Surround to Pro-Logic or Pro-Logic to 5.1.

A 7.1 system is a great deal better then a 5.1 system, if properly setup in a larger room. If you have to work hard at cramming 7 speakers in, one will probably collapse the sound stage and should stick with 5.1.

Kevin D.

[soundhound]

Who could honestly say there 1075 was taxed during surround duty? I only ask because I "had to have" the RB-1090, and in all honesty, the 1080 was more than I actually ever really used. I have since moved on, but the 1080-1075 hold a place in my heart as an unbeatable combo. Sonically, monetarilly, there a heck of a combo. The 1075 is speced at 125 or 130 x5, how often does anyone ever really watch a movie at that level, transients or not.

[WI Rotel]

WI,

I'm sorry you don't feel 6.1 or 7.1 is worth it and you're welcome to state that, but please don't make replies with inaccurate information.

DTS-ES is current format that can have a true 6.1 soundtrack, something the recording engineer spent time on and wants it to be 6.1. A variant (of DTS-ES) and Dolby-EX are both matrixed 6.1 sources to save space on the disc, but both too are engineered to be 6.1 sources that are backward compatible on 5.1 system.

The new Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD formats coming on HD-DVD and Blu-ray can both be full 7.1 sources. Add in Dolby's PLIIx which can be applied to regular Dolby and Dolby-EX and I believe 7.1 is here to stay. I don't think it's a gimmick any more then going from Dolby Surround to Pro-Logic or Pro-Logic to 5.1.

A 7.1 system is a great deal better then a 5.1 system, if properly setup in a larger room. If you have to work hard at cramming 7 speakers in, one will probably collapse the sound stage and should stick with 5.1.

Kevin D.

thanks for the update!
But there are appx a total 100 movies released HDDVD none of them are yet in 6.1. If you visit DTS's site the site, its called, 5.1 (just visited it yesterday to reedem my free DTS disc for my new Acura RL) and offers exactly 0 discs in 6.1. So though that may be the future, the future is definitely not here yet! Therefore, my previous comment is not incorrect since available for retail, there are exactly zero recorded materials in anything other than 5.1! Furtheremore, I've been monitoring both DTS and DVDA releases, in the last 3 years plus, after the initial flurry of releases, it has settled out to about 1 or 2 new releases a month, essentially HDCD, DVDA and DTS audio are formats barely on life support if not dead completely dead. :cry:

[shadow]

You apparently misread Kevin's response. DTS-ES has been on the market at least for a couple of years and is a true 6.1 format. The Dolby EX is also as described and has been around for a while too. Neither of these formats is related to the new blu ray and HD DVD codecs now coming on line.

[Kevin D]

thanks for the update!
If you visit DTS's site the site, its called, 5.1 (just visited it yesterday to reedem my free DTS disc for my new Acura RL) and offers exactly 0 discs in 6.1.

Per the DTS website:

For home theater and music playback in the home, DTS provides high quality 5.1-channel surround sound with many extras not offered by other consumer formats. As well as handling DTS-branded releases from a growing number of music labels and consumer software producers, DTS provides enhanced 6.1 matrix and DTS 6.1 discrete decoding that envelopes the listener in sound. DTS technology is featured in a wide cross section of receiver/pre-amplifiers, DVD players and add-on components from leading consumer audio vendors.

Here's a list of 300+ 6.1 discs, probably not complete either:

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_9a.asp

[WI Rotel]

Per the DTS website:




Here's a list of 300+ 6.1 discs, probably not complete either:

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_9a.asp

None are audio! Which is to what I was reffering about! The 5.1 page from DTS is a DTS audio site.

[DL86]

soundhound, it all comes down what sort of bass you want from your speakers. I had a rb-1080 which I then upgraded to a rb-1090, the bass I got from the 1090 was far greater than what I could get with the 1080 with my studio 100v3's when watching movies I really feel like I get the kick if I were to have a dedicated subwoofer. 125x5 would be ample if you were running speakers to small, but for large floor standing speakers set to LARGE I dont think it will provide the power required to produce the chair shaking bass. IMHO

[soundhound]

In all fairness DL86, I believe that says more about your speaks than it does the amp. The 1080 I had played as low as my 1090 did. There was a point (@ never used db) where the 1090 would show its extra grunt, but I need to ask the question who ever listens at these levels.
I tried the 1070, then grabbed the 1080 due to its broadband dynamics at lower db, and when I had to have the 1090, I actually missed the 1080.
How much of this is bragging rights vs visitors saying "damn", "that is a killer Sounding system"?
I realize there are many variables that come in to play, room size, prefered listening levels, music genre, speaker efficiancy, but to stay with the topic "how much power do I really need"? unless you own a night club 200 wpc is enough.

[ICEMAN70]

I agree with soundhound,

Unless you own a night club save the extra $$$$ for something else and use the 1075 and the 1080 for your speakers. I don't listen to my system pass 77, actually i never had the volume over 77, my Paradigms get very LOUD, i mean very loud with the RMB 1075. I allways found for my listening needs and volume level that i listen to music at, 200 wpc is more than enough for me.

[ICEMAN70]

soundhound, it all comes down what sort of bass you want from your speakers. I had a rb-1080 which I then upgraded to a rb-1090, the bass I got from the 1090 was far greater than what I could get with the 1080 with my studio 100v3's when watching movies I really feel like I get the kick if I were to have a dedicated subwoofer. 125x5 would be ample if you were running speakers to small, but for large floor standing speakers set to LARGE I dont think it will provide the power required to produce the chair shaking bass. IMHO

Hey DL86,

Do you have an power SUB to run with your 100's? Because when i Auditined the 100's by it self, i found the BASS was not enough even when i had the speakers at large. But when i listen to the 100's with a SUB and the speakers set to SMALL the sound was much better.

[DL86]

Iceman
I do not run a subwoofer with my 100's. I find the 1090 and 100's give ample amounts of bass. I use to have a subwoofer and a 1080 powering the 100's but got sick of the loose ported sound of my subwoofer thus selling it and getting a 1090 to power the 100's much better solution imo.

Soundhound, I reguarly listen to my music at higher SPL's. The 1080 just did not cut it for me at these higher listening levels. I listen to all sorts of rock from classical rock to heavy metal I do seriously find the 1080 lacking dynamics at these higher listening levels i.e. compression. My speakers are rated at 350W a side it wouldn't be wise to underpower them with a 1080 would it? The 1080 is great until that volume level is reached.

[ICEMAN70]

You need lot of power to Move those paradigm 100's. If you listen at very high level of volume than the 1090 would be a better choice. But if your a moderate listener 1080 should be enough.

[soundhound]

DL, to answer your question generically, overdriving an amp is never a good idea. I just believe you may be surprised at at the small amount of wattage that is actually being produced when you listen at higher levels.
Not to be misunderstood, if one needs the 1090, then they need the 1090. It is just far to easy for people to say get the 1090 and be done, when for much less $$$$ the 1080 is a very capable amp. Then as others mention, the $$$$ saved can go towards other goodies, or even left in the bank.

[slowrey]

Okay update. I bought a RMB-1075 and will be buyinga RB-1080 shortly.

[soundhound]

Congrats Sean,
So far so good?
If your buying new, the gear can sound a bit sterile out of the box.
Make sure to let us know after everything is broken in, and dialed in what ya think.

[slowrey]

So far it sounds great. I wished that I could have bought the RB-1095 however my current rack would not accommodate it and right now I don't think that I need it. My plans are to buy a new RB-1080 next month and then in a year or so pick up a RB-1095 if I can get a good deal on a used or new one.

My theory with buying the RMB-1075 is that it's a boost in wattage, it's something I'd use since it's 5-channel and it would allow me to buy my NHT Classic Fours sooner.

Can't wait to get it all done!

[lvhung]

Why not Rotel 1067
I am a fan of receiver

[apodaca]

I believe most here would agree that for the same price or a little more, that a 1067 you can either get a 1057 or a 1068 witha separate amp. I for example chose a 1056 with a 1070 stereo amp and the 1070 will outperform the 1067 in stereo.

[WI Rotel]

Why is there such an issue with the 1090 vs the 1075 if you need more power than the 1075 but want a 5.1 solution there's the 1095! It is vastly more powerful than the 75 (a lot more than the specified additional 75watts) plus its got 5 channels already! Personally I dont see the need for a 1090 in any home situation unless your house IS a nightclub. I use very inefficient XT BW's and the 1095 drives them to ear splitting, foundation cracking levels without even getting warm! In fact, my limit is the speakers not the amp by any measure. IMO there simply isn't a better solution to HT/stereo than the 1095 for anything even remotely close in price.

[style]

slowrey

Hy,

RSX1057 + RMB1075 & RB1080 is a good solution,

but if the RSX1057 is for HDMI wait and invest in a RB1092 & RMB 1077
whit the new pre Rotel :T :T

Bey Omar
Switzerland

[mjb]

Why is there such an issue with the 1090 vs the 1075 if you need more power than the 1075 but want a 5.1 solution there's the 1095!

I don't see an "issue", and I think the original post is after a 7.1 setup.

As others have said in this thread, IMO a 1080 for the fronts, and a 1075 for the surrounds is a great setup - for the average sized living room - and its a common upgrade path for people going from 5.1 (with a 1075) to 7.1 (just add the 1080). This is what I did, and I couldn't be happier. The 1080 is a noticable sonic improvement over the 1075 (as the 1090 is over the 1080).

Sure, I'd love to have a stack of seven RB-1091's, but A) I don't have the space, B) I don't own a money tree, and C) I'd probably never use more than 20% of the rated output anyway. Its easy to get taken away with the numbers game, but if we're honest, 200 watts is a lot of power for good floor standing speakers.

[slowrey]

Wow lots of things have changed for me in the past few weeks. Here's what's happened

Purchased the RSX-1057, RMB-1075 and RLC-1040
Sold my Sanus Natural Foundation AV Rack, Coffee Table and End Tables
Purchased a new rack, coffee table and end tables from Pottery Barn
Sold my NHT SuperOne's, Super Center's and SuperTwo's
Purchased NHT Classic Three's and NHT Classic Three C
Sold my Sanyo Z2 projector
Purchased a Sanyo Z4 projector
Saving up for the RB-1080
Saving up for the NHT Classic Fours

So after all of these purchases I will have the following:

NHT Classic Four (Towers) - Front left and right (200 watt per channel)
NHT Classic Three C - Center (125 watts)
NHT Classic Three (bookshelf) - Rear left and right (125 watt per channel)

So with this being said does anyone think I should pick up a RB-1070 and bridge it mono for 380 watts for the center channel?

[bigburner]

As the owner of an RB-1080 I'm happy with its performance driving my CDM9NT speakers. They are well matched. However if I owned a pair of Studio 100 v3 speakers I would prefer to drive them with an RB-1090. In fact that combination offers great price performance for the high SPL listener.