DPL IIx and the RSP 1066

[DrJRapp]

I was recently told by one of my local friendly Rotel dealers that the RSP 1066 IS capable of processing DPLIIx but Rotel is refraining from writing a software upgrade so as to not discourage upgrades to the RSP 1068 by current 1066 owners.

It seems the processing power is there in the 1066 since it is already handeling Rotel's own proprietary XS processing which requires similar processing power.

Does anyone know any more about this?




Jerry Rappaport

Rotel RSP-1066/RMB-1075/RB-1050
Klipsch RF7C/RC7C/RS7/RS3 SVS PB2+
Bravo D1 DVD
Dish Network 6000U HD
Ultravision 65" HDTV

[skipm]

I would tend to believe Rotel's engineers who said, even before DPL IIx was announced, that due to the 1066 firmware's limitation on storage, that there would probably be no additional updates.

-Skip

[Azeke]

I've read that the code for DPLIIx is very large and therefore utilizes huge amounts of memory. If the code cannot fit the ROM chip then it must utilize some of the ram, which directly affects the audio processing. I'm not sure if this is applicable to the 1066, but the later Rotel models are able to handle the large amounts of code, based on the new Cirrus chips, processor, etc. Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Azeke

[DrJRapp]

Skip

I was wondering, are we talking about the very same engineers who have made such memorable remarks as "there is no 1066 poping problem, then followed up with a software fix for the "non"-problem? Or, perhaps the ones who said that there was no RB 1080 hum problem, but redesigned it anyway. Could it be the ones who denied a center channel issue on the 1098, then shipped shields....just for kicks!???

When I purchased my 1066 just six months ago the webpage on it said: "Upgradeable software means you won’t be left behind by new advances either".

At this stage of the game, I am wondering who at Rotel one CAN believe?




Jerry Rappaport

Rotel RSP-1066/RMB-1075/RB-1050
Klipsch RF7C/RC7C/RS7/RS3 SVS PB2+
Bravo D1 DVD
Dish Network 6000U HD
Ultravision 65" HDTV

[Aussie Geoff]

1066 Users,

I share your frustration - however let me give some information (partly knowledge, partly informed speculation) that will help understand the complexities of the issue:

• DPL IIx code is large and complex - since it not only operates on 2 channel sources (like DPL II) but also on Dolby Digital 5.1, EX and DTS 5.1 sources.
• The IIx processing is way more complex than XS - which is built on a feature called Extra Surround implemented on the Cirrus DSP chips used by Rotel.
• DPL IIx is good and clearly better than XS processing on some soundtracks – however XS is impressive and much better than most non IIx implementations have already – i.e. the step up to IIx for RSP-1066 users is not as big a difference as one would think.
• You need a 7.1 set-up to hear a significant difference from DPL IIx over XS processing on DPL II.
• Cirrus have demo IIx code available for the version of the DSP used in the RSP-1066 - but adding IIx to the EPROM and firmware would exceed the memory size - requiring a physical hardware upgrade (i.e. new chip installed in the RSP-1066).
• Integrating IIx is not trivial and was a 6 month exercise for Rotel on the RSP-1098 that ran late and delayed delivery of the RSP-1068 etc. And (judging by some of the "excitement" some of the RSP-1098 users are having with it) there is plenty to go wrong in this process.
• So lets look at 6 months of engineering time (with on costs) say US $100,000 and the cost of the chip (say $5) and the dealer install (dealers would charge for this say $30-$50). If the upgrade sold at $100 US Rotel would need to sell a minimum of 2,000 upgrades just to pay the dealer install, local tax and cover their engineering cost (this cost is by no means unreasonable - with other processor manufactures charging US $300+ for EPROM replacement type upgrades). NOTE: These Rotel cost estimates are speculation but the engineering time is realistic.
• Given that IIx only really benefits 6 and 7 channel users - the challenge of finding 2000 or more RSP-1066 users willing to commit is not trivial.
• Rotel did add lots of upgrades to the RSP-1066 and started to hit physical limitations - hence some of the items on the previous RSP-1066 wish list being deferred to the RSP-1098 where they were nearly all included.

So - if people are passionate about DPL IIx for the RSP-1066 - consider starting some king of web petition etc to get enough numbers. Bottom line my understanding is that Rotel would need a strong proven demand of people willing to pay in order to make this viable economically - otherwise they would just be burning money....

PS - As a RSP-1098 user I KNOW that already some of the upgrades we have asked for on the Wish list won’t happen and will need to wait for a new model. It is part of the cycle of HT technology upgrade. I need to start saving now for that new “must have” processor in 2 or three years!

Geoff

[DrJRapp]

Geoff

Thank you for your complete and informative analysis. However, there are some points I would like to explore further.

1. Advances in the 1066 code that occurred before I purchased MY 1066 are of no concern to me. When I purchased mine, what had already been implimented, had already been implimented, yet I was sold the unit based on Rotel's website implication and the dealers assurances that near term changes in processing technology would be implimented in the 1066. At the time I purchased, they (Rotel not the dealer) probably already knew of either the limitations of the 1066 or their desire (based on decision) not to take the 1066 any further, yet they continued to advertise it as near term future proof. In legal terms this is termed "Fraud in the Inducement".

2. As you mentioned, CL does have demo code for PLIIx for the chip utilized in the 1066. That available base data, combined with the knowedge of the learning curve gained from implimenting IIx on the 1098 and 1068 should considerably reduce engineering time and effort to impliment it on the 1066, so your financial analysis may perhaps be skewed.

3. I (and perhaps many others) would gladly pay a reasonable fee to upgrade hardware to accomodate IIx. Currently my dealer wants approximatly $800 to swap my 1066 for a 1068. Maybe I could do a bit better by selling my 1066 off, but not that much. I consider this outrageous for something less than a year old.

4. Most importantly, ROTEL's integrity is on the line. If they leave us in the lurch with the 1066, how are we to trust them in the future? This has recently caused me to move from being an avid supporter of Rotel (and in the past six months have probably helped sell at least 4 or 5 setups, maybe more for them), to a Rotel skeptic. I am even seriously considering moving to another brand over just THIS breach of faith. I think the preservation of brand integrity would be worth WHATEVER it costs ROTEL to keep it's faith with its customers, and preseve it's name.




Jerry Rappaport

Rotel RSP-1066/RMB-1075/RB-1050
Klipsch RF7C/RC7C/RS7/RS3 SVS PB2+
Bravo D1 DVD
Dish Network 6000U HD
Ultravision 65" HDTV

[Andrew Pratt]

Jerry we've gone though this before and honestly it seems no matter what is said you're still going to be bitter that you bought a processor near the end of its product life time. As geoff points out the PLIIx code only gives a slight improvement for those select few running 7.1 anyway so its not like its a brand new DTS like codec that is a real must have etc.

I'd suggest in future if product longevity is really that important to do a lot of research on when the new lines are coming out and even then purchase knowing that sooner or later even that unit will be outdated in some way shape or form...its just the nature of the business. Just be glad we're not talking about computers which can be even worse for short lived product life cycles.

[DrJRapp]

Jerry we've gone though this before and honestly it seems no matter what is said you're still going to be bitter that you bought a processor near the end of its product life time. As geoff points out the PLIIx code only gives a slight improvement for those select few running 7.1 anyway so its not like its a brand new DTS like codec that is a real must have etc.

I'd suggest in future if product longevity is really that important to do a lot of research on when the new lines are coming out and even then purchase knowing that sooner or later even that unit will be outdated in some way shape or form...its just the nature of the business. Just be glad we're not talking about computers which can be even worse for short lived product life cycles.

Andrew,

Your points would be valid except.
1. How is one to know when a product is nearing it's end of life, especially since the manufacturer states otherwise. Six moths ago, if you had questioned anyone (which I did) on the existance of an improved version of the 1066 they would have denied any knowledge of same.
2. I did do extensive research, and chose my 1066 just for the reason it was promoted as being near term future proof. You may not consider 6 months to be near term, but I certainly do. I did question the dealer on IIX, and was told in a round about way that when IIx was available it would probably be implimented due to the software upgradeable nature of the 1066. (This was probably just speculation on his part).
3. As you mentioned, this is not a major upgrade like a new format requiring more channels etc. If it were a major upgrade I would never expect ROTEL to support it in the 1066. The fact is that it is a relatively minor upgrade that CAN be supported by the onboard processor (perhaps with some memory upgrade).
4. 7.1 may effect only a small portion of the customer base, but for those of us that do have 7.1 it is of 100% concern.
5. No, WE have never discussed this issue, perhaps you are confusing me with someone else. Yes, I have seen prior posts on this issue, but never participated. I suppose like many others, I bought into the concept that is being put forth that the processor in the 1066 couldn't handle the code. I only developed MY resentment when I found out that it really can handle the code(with the aforementioned memory upgrade).




Jerry Rappaport

Rotel RSP-1066/RMB-1075/RB-1050
Klipsch RF7C/RC7C/RS7/RS3 SVS PB2+
Bravo D1 DVD
Dish Network 6000U HD
Ultravision 65" HDTV

[JP]

Jerry, I have posted recently on this very issue, and I agree with you 100%. To tell the truth, My Rotel gear sounds great, their customer service is very good, but I have the same reservations that you and many others do regarding 'upgrades.' I have simply given up on the issue. (however pathetic that is to me personally) I have high hopes for the new Integra Research piece coming out, but my hopes aren't that high

Bets Regards to all

JP

[zeppelin]

Jerry, I'm totally agree with you 100% also. I owned RSP1066 for about 7 mths, but to bad the upgrade is not gonna happen with 1066. I hate to see that 1068 is on the market right now replacing basically about the same design as the 1066. It's all about making money. Its like an ingredient in a cake, you just add some extra sugar in it and it will sell like hot cakes, get what I mean
But no matter what if I were to upgrade my old faithfull 1066, 1098 or later is to go, not the basically the same looks and design with some extra features.

[Andrew Pratt]

It's all about making money.

To be fair that's what drives all businesses It also about keeping pace with the industry so that you're products aren't too far behind..it wasn't Rotel the invented DD then DTS then DD EX then DTS ES then PLII then PLIIx etc

[Mark_C.]

I guess this issue just goes to show how priorities differ. I have a 1066 and have no intention of getting rid of it because of the lack of PLIIx. I could care less about this feature. If I were in the same boat, and had queried my dealer specifically about the possibility of upgrading the 1066 to include a new feature, I would expect my dealer to come through. This comes from establishing a good working relationship with the dealer. I would not blame Rotel for this, and I certainly wouldn't rely on a dealer's speculation. Confirmation would be required if this was an important issue to me.

[Stevebez]

Mmmm... I too bought the 1066 as being "future proof". I suppose this is somewhat naive of me given that the processors suffer very similar fates as PC's as the chip architecture and processing capacity is improving all the time - many fold. So I guess processors will date relatively quickly compared to other hardware. It makes good sense to go for separates then for sure. So, on the hardware front I agree its part of the development process I guess.

On the software front it is not that clear cut. I do think ROTEL should be clearer on what exactly they mean by "future proof" on their marketing material. Almost all of the software upgrades implemented have done very little to add new capacity or features, but have only really tweaked existing functionality to make it more user friendly. This is hardly "future proof". So the much advertised computer upgradeable "feature" seems purely to be a function to enable ROTEL to keep customers happy on software that has been not been properly designed or thoroughly tested throughout.

Sounds more and more like a large well known software company who continually requires you to update software that was rushed and improperly designed in the first place, and use its clients to do the real testing…. But I digress.

I have to agree fully with DrJRapp.

I bought ROTEL kit precisely because their product lifecycles are longer than the "norm". It seems I may as well have bought a SONY.... for allot less.

If I can upgrade to 1068 for little, ($200-300), fair enough. If it’s going to cost me $800, that’s ridiculous.

Rgds Steve.
RSP1066
RMB1075
Boston Micro
REL Sub
Panasonic Plasma 42"

[Andrew Pratt]

I bought ROTEL kit precisely because their product lifecycles are longer than the "norm". It seems I may as well have bought a SONY.... for allot less.

Except of course that the Rotels sound much better, will last longer, have better resale value and IMO look much nicer

[JP]

ya know I have a feeling that the RSP-1098 is going the way of the 1066 as well. They havne't implemented the 'game' feature on the new PLIIx. Any ideas why????

no more room perhaps?

[Aussie Geoff]

JP

Let me quote from the Dolby site here

Modes and Controls
Dolby Pro Logic IIx technology features Movie and Music modes that function with 5.1 as well as stereo sources, including 24-bit/192 kHz and 24-bit/96 kHz sources (depending on processor capability). If the player has a digital link to a processor that performs DSP and bass management, Dolby Pro Logic IIx can also function with SACD and DVD-A content. A new, optional Game mode restores the impact low-frequency surround effects by routing them to the system's subwoofer.

In Music mode, surround information is spread evenly among all the Surround speakers. This is especially useful when listening to music recorded in stereo. In addition, the Music mode can provide up to three user controls—Dolby Center Width, Dolby Panorama, and Dolby Dimension—to optimize playback for particular program material and the listener's taste.

You will note that game mode is optional and basically has a more aggressive bass redirection scheme. Game mode is primarily is designed for implementation on home PCs and 7.1 sound systems (you know the $200 ones) where you want something that will take all bass below 200 Hz (or similar high frequency) and move it into the sub – not needed on most set-ups where the RSP-1098 is installed, one would expect.

Dolby have made Game mode optional and most HT receiver etc aren't taking it up - though a few have for completeness / marketing reasons. IIx Cinema mode is backward compatible with game mode other than the bass redirection and will play IIx Game mode games impressively.

There is plenty of memory left on the RSP-1098 right now and it shares most of its code with the “out this month” RSP-1068 and RSP-1067 - but doubtless they will fill it up in the next 2 years

Geoff

[DrJRapp]

If I were in the same boat, and had queried my dealer specifically about the possibility of upgrading the 1066 to include a new feature, I would expect my dealer to come through. This comes from establishing a good working relationship with the dealer. I would not blame Rotel for this, and I certainly wouldn't rely on a dealer's speculation. Confirmation would be required if this was an important issue to me.

Actually, it was my dealer confirming to me what ROTEL said about the 1066 in their website and brocure: "Upgradeable software means you won’t be left behind by new advances either". You'll notice it says WON'T be left behind, not perhaps, or maybe or untill we decide otherwise!

How much more should a reasonable person expect? I consider myself a reasonable person, and I DO research my purchases very carefully. When I read something solid from a (supposidly) reputable company like ROTEL, then it is confirmed (even tenatively) by one of their dealers, I tend to have faith in that. Where else are we to go? I'm sure if I had called ROTEL to ask this question I would not necessarily have been told the truth, but just given the line "you won't be left behind" again. Sorry, the onis lies, not with the dealer but with the manufacturer who has misrepresented the situation (in writing) not only to the potential consumer, but to perhaps to his agent (the dealer) also. As much as Andy and Geoff would like to make this a technical issue, it's really not a technical issue but a business issue. Is the company going to stand behind it's words, or not? Integrity means making ones actions conform to ones words, this is not my definition, but can be found in more than one dictionary. That is why I feel that ROTEL lacks integrity as a company, and I AM NOT ALONE.

I have had conversations about this subject with 3 ROTEL dealers recently, and it appears that ROTEL keeps their dealers pretty much in the dark about software upgrades and even new models. People here on this forum like Andrew and Geoff seem to have much more inside information than the dealers do.

So, I ask both Andrew and Geoff what does: "Upgradeable software means you won’t be left behind by new advances either", mean to you?


My dealer is willing to do the right thing for me...but on trade for another manufacturers equipment. It seems this issue is far more widespread, and has generated far more hate and discontent towards ROTEL than just here. My dealer has more than a few customers who are furious at him over this, and he's not very happy about it either, even though the 1068 is going to generate additional sales and trade ins. One customer, who is a very high profile, nationally known attorney in Boca Raton is even said to be preparing a class action suit. (just hearsay, yet unconfirmed by me...but I'm working on it).

So guys, stand buy(intentionally misspelled), this story ain't over yet!




Jerry Rappaport

Rotel RSP-1066/RMB-1075/RB-1050
Klipsch RF7C/RC7C/RS7/RS3 SVS PB2+
Bravo D1 DVD
Dish Network 6000U HD
Ultravision 65" HDTV

[Andrew Pratt]

I hope you weren't calling me Andy in that rant b/c you'll quickly find out just how much I hate that name

People here on this forum like Andrew and Geoff seem to have much more inside information than the dealers do.

We're nobody special...you just have to ask and I'm sure they'd be open to talking with their dealer network.

Anyway what that statement would mean to me is pretty much what they've done in that they've offered firmware upgrades where possible for a reasonable lenght of time...its a software upgradeable product not hardware meaning that I never expected them to offer a new memory chip for it etc. Also to be frank when I first got my 1066 I actually didn't really expect them to offer any upgrades...let alone free ones given what the competition had done with that feature before. Unitl Rotel came along the Marantz's and Denon's of the world had touted their units as upgradeable as well but never did offer an upgrade or patch for their units. Even now Denon's upgrading their top of the line unit...but at a major cost.

[DrJRapp]

Sorry about that Andrew. You have the same name as my grandson, and we call him Andy...just force of habit!

I never suggested a hardware upgrade should be free. In fact, I wouldn't expect it to be, just reasonable and available. But alas, it appears ROTEL has chosen to leave us with the 1066 behind.

Until now I always thought of ROTEL as being in a different league than the mass produced/mass marketed Denon's and Marantz's of the audio world. You are now starting to put things into perspective, maybe we don't have as esoteric a product from company as sophisticated as we here at Club Rotel think we do.

When all is said and done, no matter what we may argue about here. It was ROTELS decision, and theirs alone, not to honor their statement about leaving some behind. Unfortunatly, it is some of their customers that will suffer the consequences of that decision more than the company will. I guess they must believe that their market plan can do with a few less "loyal" customers. By profession I am a marketing person (Ph.D. not MD) and, as a marketing professional, I could never agree with what they have done.




Jerry Rappaport

Rotel RSP-1066/RMB-1075/RB-1050
Klipsch RF7C/RC7C/RS7/RS3 SVS PB2+
Bravo D1 DVD
Dish Network 6000U HD
Ultravision 65" HDTV

[zeppelin]

Jerry , I'm looking forward to the following up case of nationally known attorney in Boca Raton. If its true

[Trevor_J]

Jerry, DrJRapp, stevebez, zepplin:

I agree with all of you 100%.

Mark me down as one of the 1066 owners who has lost faith/respect with Rotel. I too read that statement on their marketing brochure/website to mean that upgrading to be futureproof meant more than fixing bugs and operational changes. In fact, this point was re-iterated to me by my dealer when I went in to audition the 1066 before buying. It has been mentioned in this thread that those of us that have been told this should query our dealers for an upgrade option (read: buy another product) and I ask why should my dealer be made accountable for information he was relaying from Rotel? The fact that it was touted as being 'futureproof' was one of the main reasons why I chose to buy it in the first place.

I used to be a Rotel supporter but I can no longer recommend them to friends with a clear conscience. I know a few 1066 owners that do not post on this board and in speaking with my dealer there are many more like us that are upset about this issue as well. Truth be told my next processor will likely be from another manufacturer and I'm sure I'm not the only one contemplating this.

As for the not enough memory argument, I'm not sure I fully buy into this. If memory is the problem I have a suggestion: Why don't they erase all of those useless DSP modes (Music1, Music2, Music3, Music4, Music5) that sound terrible? Hell, I'd even be happy if they erased Rotel 'XS' as well if given the choice between that and DPL IIx.

[DrJRapp]

Jerry, DrJRapp, stevebez, zepplin:

As for the not enough memory argument, I'm not sure I fully buy into this. If memory is the problem I have a suggestion: Why don't they erase all of those useless DSP modes (Music1, Music2, Music3, Music4, Music5) that sound terrible? Hell, I'd even be happy if they erased Rotel 'XS' as well if given the choice between that and DPL IIx.

Very good point. Maybe this is something Andrew can pass on to ROTEL as a suggestion.




Jerry Rappaport

Rotel RSP-1066/RMB-1075/RB-1050
Klipsch RF7C/RC7C/RS7/RS3 SVS PB2+
Bravo D1 DVD
Dish Network 6000U HD
Ultravision 65" HDTV

[aud19]

As for the not enough memory argument, I'm not sure I fully buy into this. If memory is the problem I have a suggestion: Why don't they erase all of those useless DSP modes (Music1, Music2, Music3, Music4, Music5) that sound terrible? Hell, I'd even be happy if they erased Rotel 'XS' as well if given the choice between that and DPL IIx.

Trevor,

I'm so glad someone decided to say something positive and proactive about the situation and I thank you for that I've been following this thread but have been hesitant to contribute anything for fear of getting into a un-ending and pointless debate. Perhaps you've touched on something we can actually do something positive about this situation. I suggest starting another thread posing the question:

What surround modes and/or options/functions would 1066 owners be willing to give up in exchange for space enough to put DPLIIx on?

I've already posed the question to Mats (HTGuide's techie ) of adding "polls" to the guide (he's agreed to look in to it after the server move) and this would be an ideal subject to utilize them with. First though we'd need a general idea of what functions people would be willing to give up. Then when/if polling is available, people could vote on the options.

Eventually it will still come down to Rotel's ability and desire to make it happen but if we work together to try to come up with a viable solution....who knows what might happen?

Jason




Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

[JoeHard]

I bought my 1066 even though I new a replacement was on the way. I was thrilled with the deal I got and would not even consider paying $ 700 more for the 1068. However, one of the selling points of the 1066 was the ability to upgrade and the promise of being future proof. I don't blame anyone for feeling mislead by Rotel. The B@K Ref 50 promises true future proof for the same $ as the 1068.

[Andrew Pratt]

I'll pass that idea along to Rotel but I'm not sure they'll be able to do what you guys hope. The fact is Rotel is a pretty small company with limited resources so they might not be able justify the effort on the older line...esp with the bugs to be worked out on the current models.

For those thinking of buying something else next go round by all means listen to whats available and pick what you think sounds best etc. Features are neat but at the end of the day its how the unit sounds thats important...and very likely why most of us bought a Rotel in the first place.

[DrJRapp]

Thanks Andrew.

Yes, you are right, sound is ONE of the big factors in selecting equipment.




Jerry Rappaport

Rotel RSP-1066/RMB-1075/RB-1050
Klipsch RF7C/RC7C/RS7/RS3 SVS PB2+
Bravo D1 DVD
Dish Network 6000U HD
Ultravision 65" HDTV

[Eiffel]

I bought my RSX-1055 weeks before the rumors of the new products got started (I search for rumors before ordering my receiver, and was led to believe that a replacement was at least one year away)... so I'm a little bit disappointed... I could probably have had a better deal on the 1055 or a better sounding unit

Now, my expectations about the free software upgrades were limited. Besides the addition of DPL-II, all the other firmware changes have fallen in the category of bug fixes... This is still better than what most competitors do, so I'm not complaining.

When comparing the new products to the old ones, what bugs me most is the likely sound improvement (I'm not convinced of the need for DTS96/24, or even DPLIIx... and realize that there might be some licensing fees to pay for this). I bought a fairly expensive receiver because I believed its sound quality was the best for the price, but this no longer holds true.

I do wish that Rotel would offer an upgrade path (for a fee) to bring the hardware up to date on the main new items... this would make the company standout big time (I've upgraded my ARC tube amp, and was very happy to keep this system current for a reasonable fee)

Eiffel

[aud19]

I'll pass that idea along to Rotel but I'm not sure they'll be able to do what you guys hope. The fact is Rotel is a pretty small company with limited resources so they might not be able justify the effort on the older line...esp with the bugs to be worked out on the current models.

Very true and I would fully expect them to concentrate their efforts on the new models for the immediate future before tackling any remaining issues with the old equipment. However it doesn't hurt to gather the information and as customers, try to push for something you want, like an optional firmware update. In this case I'm sure Rotel could charge and many customers would be willing to pay say $20-$30 for a CD with the firmware for this special case. It might not happen with Rotels more limited resources but trying to make progress rather than complaining about a lack of progress is better IMO.

Jason




Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

[SS]

As a recent convert from the B&K Ref series to the Rotel 1068, I can tell you that the B&K "upgrade" policy also leaves a lot to be desired and has left many people disappointed. They have made material changes in the size of the unit two time (with the Ref 30 and Ref 50), leaving prior owners incapable of getting all of the updates in the newer units. The upgrade from their older products to the software features of the Ref 50 costs $898 plus S/H both ways, and this "upgrade" does not get you any hardware updates, including component video switching and balanced inputs, and requires use of ALL of the coaxial digital inputs if you want a 5.1 input (leaving you with only Toslink inputs). All this for a product that now retails for $2000. I now take such upgrade promises with a grain of salt, including Rotel's, and purchased my 1068 expecting that it will need to be replaced in 3-5 years time if I want the latest and greatest at that time. This is why we all chose to buy separates instead of spending thousands of dollars on a "flagship" receiver.

[Aussie Geoff]

SS,

Thanks for posting this. I'd also point out for other readers that:

• B&K (like most HT Processors) don't yet have Dolby IIx and haven’t announced it
• Such upgrade costs are common for those few processors offering hardware upgrades (Theta Cassablanca owners pay even more)
• The costs are realistic when you consider removing and replacing DACs, chips, etc
• Hardware upgrades have been inevitable every 2 years or so to keep pace with the exploding world of HT technology, formats, processing options and sound quality expectations
• Suppliers such as Lexcon charge $300+ just for an EPROM update.

So even if Rotel said - they will upgrade RSP-1066s to RSP-1068 specs - I would expect a price closer to $800 etc. This is just hardware and engineering costs etc.

All that aside - I like the idea RSP-1066 owners of pushing / working with Rotel on a firmware release that drops other features to squeeze in IIx. It could be optional for users but would be a nice touch for owners who invested in them. My extra suggestion for a feature to drop is the code to display the volume in numbers rather than a bar height - lots of memory their to save....

Geoff

[DrJRapp]

Andrew

Have you had the opportunity to discuss the re-allocation of memory to PLIIx at all with Rotel?




Jerry Rappaport

Rotel RSP-1066/RMB-1075/RB-1050
Klipsch RF7C/RC7C/RS7/RS3 SVS PB2+
Bravo D1 DVD
Dish Network 6000U HD
Ultravision 65" HDTV

[amix]

As much as it might be senseless to discuss this, I would like to add my 2 cents.

HT is 10 years old. And since the very beginning it is known, that it is a technique in constant move and evolvement. Customers know this. Vendors know this and they know, that the customers know it as well, especially those purchasing expensive equipment.

One speciality in the high-price market is long-livety. Now, that 50% of the system is being formed of software, there needs to be a way to make the long life of their products still apply.

So they offer products which are upgradable (RS-232, modular design) etc. and advertsie them accordingly.

Still, the product is "dead" after three years. And this is very upsetting. If the products change, tha manufacturers must change their way of dealing with the liferange of their products as well.

And I am sure, that this announced feature might well be the point of decision for many customers. Here it is critical to stick to the promises or just not make them. Not meaning Rotel only, but any vendor on any market.

And if a company advertises with "upgradable for future tech", then it should be pretty pretty upgradable or the exclamation was a not according to the trueth. And I do not care for "valid reasons" now. These reasons always exist. They need to be calculated sooner.

I ask myself anyway, why a company does not offer two top-notch lines (would be 1066/68 and 1096 here) which come as an empty case. And then, instead of developing new devices, they just develop the modules further and offer all as an upgrade. This way only parts would need to be exchanged and most units would be customized to the users need.

I mean a Prepro is a computer with some audio-circuits. Not anything else.

Which was the computer architecture, that survived, inspite of the bad CPU architecture and horrible operating-system ? The x86 PC. Simply, because it was modular with expansin cards.

Why not in prepros and storage (CD, DVD, etc.) as well ?

Hm, as for the last one: Andrew, is the Rotel Rep still expecting questions ?
Honestly, I'd be interested, why there are no such products on the market.

[stantheman2]

Boy, there's a lot of energy on this issue! My $0.02 is that I believe Rotel is being somewhat unfairly criticized on the "upgradeable" issue for a $1500 pre/pro (the 1066). HT AVRs and pre/pros are a combination of audio componentry and microprocessor(s). Microprocessor technology and software to run it is simply not as "future proof" as the audio componentry is. What we are seeing is that the software revisions require ever more memory and processor speed, all in a relatively short design cycle. In the retail market, Rotel could not originally "overbuild" the 1066 to allow for some unknown potential huge future expansion such as Dolby PLIIX - they would price themselves out of the market. Marketing hyperbole aside, their web site makes clear (to me) that the upgrades are via an RS-232 port, and therefore limited to software upgrades within the capacity of the hardware.

Yes, it would be nice to have replaceable hardware cards a la the computer industry, but the audio world simply isn't there yet at anywhere near this price point. Denon and Onkyo offer it on their $4K receivers, and outfits like Levinson offer a similar path - but at high cost.

Rotel, with the 1066, offered upgradeability that exceeded most if not all of their competition at that price, with audio performance better or equal to anything near the price. Overall, that sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

[GosonFletchy]

To everyone that is complaining about that fact that you can not upgrade your unit to the specs of the new units, let me ask you this. In 4 years, what audio formats will be available on the market and what new formats will be used. New video formats? If you actually think that you have a answer for this, then you are extremely confused about HT. No one knows what will be out in the years to come, so why do you expect Rotel to know and since they dont know, and did not know, why do you expect them to waste all their time trying to make older models handle new formats. If they did this, they would go bankrupt in no time. I love the way Rotel handles their upgrades and they are getting even better at it. You say you researched the product well and found out all you could. Going online and seeing a few reviews and posts is not research. Rotel customer service is top notch, and they are very open with thier customers about new product that is in the works and if, or when, a current model may be discontinued. Whenever you get mad at Rotel and want to change brands, fine, go ahead, but do not be crazy enough to think that you are going to get what you want somewhere else. No one does what you are asking for, why?, because it is not an efficient way to do business. Next time you want to purchase any HT equipment, whether it is Rotel or not, find out when the unit first started production. Then ask if there are any plans of the unit being discontinued within the next year and if there is what is the significant upgrade to the upcoming models..........

Uhg, I am pretty disappointed with all of you people that are complaining about this :M . Use your brains, this is common sense stuff.

Goson F.

[aarsoe]

I agree. I think it is hard to blaim Rotel for something that they are not in charge of.

HOWEVER - I would like to shoot at something similar.
The hardware "upgrade" policy from Rotel is at best very shady.
What am I thinking of? Well all the hardware changes that have been done to an existing model in order to fix problems are not done automatically on existing units that are sent in for repair.
Let me mention some examples: The grounding scheme changes on the amp's, the video upgrade on the 1066 so that it can do HDTV, etc..

I mean, do I as a consumer have to search the web for theese things, then get my unit and call Rotel with the serial number to see if it does HDTV?? (1066 example) That means I am buying the cat in the bag - and in my oppinion that stinks.

So Rotel - please when you fix something, have your repair guy's (yours and the dealers) do theese corrections - If you want to say cost issues, then let it be an option that the end-user can decide if he/she wants to do, and pay for (even though, if it is a fix it should in my oppinion be free) - but not offering it and not telling about it is in my oppinion worse than anything else
Especially since our hometheater equipment keeps changing all the time, and even though I may not have a problem right now, Murphy will surely pay me a visit 2 years from now, when Rotel no longer supports my old gear...

And yes, I will most likely have sold it by then, but what about the next guy??

[DrJRapp]

Somehow, I think the the point that I made earlier on in this thread has been lost. The point was that Rotel advertised that the 1066 was upgradeable in a manner that we "would not be left behind", and this advertsing was still in place 11 months ago when I purchased my unit, even though at that point ROTEL had to know very well that there would be no "upgrades" to the 1066, only minor bug fixes. The dealers were never informed that there would be no further upgrades to the 1066 so they kept using the "upgradeability" feature as a powerful sales tool. (three separate dealers have confirmed that ROTEL kept them in the dark about this). In the strict legal sense, in marketing of any product if you make statements that you know are intentionally false in order to help sell a product or service it is a form of Fraud...and is legally called "Fraud in the inducement". So, even though many here would like to make this a debate about hardware capability, and Rotel's crystal ball...what we are REALLY talking about here is Rotel's integrity...is it going to do what it implied in it's advertising...or not?!!!!!

Some would say, who cares?.... other manufacturer's make false statements also. As someone who functions exclusely in the high end of my own industry, I can verify that not living up to one's representations is more often than not...fatal. In this case, the death may not come immediatly, but be a long painful lingering one of dimishing image for Rotel. We can start to see it here on this board already. People are questioning Rotel's judgement with the 1098 poor parts content, the inherent noisyness of the 1068 and other weaknesses in the equipment in a manner I have never seen before on these or other similar threads. It's as if they are saying "Rotel..we don't trust you anymore".

[Andrew Pratt]

Jerry there's nothing that anyone is going to say to either change your mind or make you feel any better about this situation so I'd suggest that we either drop it all together or you contact Rotel directly and let them know how you feel.

You're right that they're documentation could have been more clear with a reference to software upgrades vs hardware but I think most of us knew what they meant and even then there's several other vendors that offered the same statements on their gear and NEVER did offer any software upgrades (Marantz comes to mind) on those models. Some did offer similar firmware tweaks but most of those came at a cost.

If you really feel that hardware and software upgrades are a must have then by all means switch to another vendor that does offer that feature...I suggest though that before you jump ship completely take a look and see what a used 1066 is still selling for and compare that to what a new unit would cost...in many cases you'd actually end up paying the same or less then the cost to upgrade another vendors product only this time you get a brand new unit with full warrenty.

The comment that Rotel kept the dealers in the dark seems very obsurd to me as they've been nothing but forthcoming when ever I've asked a question to them...so either they're local reps are clueless or they just didn't ask the right person.

[Kevin D]

Well all the hardware changes that have been done to an existing model in order to fix problems are not done automatically on existing units that are sent in for repair.
Let me mention some examples: the video upgrade on the 1066 so that it can do HDTV, etc..

Um... The 1066 was never advertised as being able to pass HDTV. The board supplier changed and that is what allowed for a higher bandwidth. The existing bandwidth was always available, it's wasn't hidden as a 'bug' they needed to fix. Why do you think the older models are intilted to a free component board upgrade when the original was up to spec? (the new one just went over spec)

And on a tangent, have you watched HD through an older model with the 'non-HD' component video circuit?? I'll give you $100 if you can find 5 people that can see how the image is degraded.. We've got several of the older units out there running HD 1080i that we never bothered upgrading because we couldn't tell a difference without breaking out a HDTV pattern generater..

Kevin D.

[aarsoe]

To be honest - HDTV is not an issue with me, since it is not availeble over here. :M

However I still think my point is valid, if there is a design change forced by fixing issues - then it should be availeble to all users.
Just like they make software updates that fixes issues availeble to everybody..