Why no THX processing on Rotel Pre/Pro's?

[mpauline]

In my quest for an upgrade to my RSP 976 I am pondering why the RSP 1098 does not have THX certification. It seems like all the competition in that price range have THX certification i.e. B & K Ref 50, Anthem AVM 20, etc.

Does the 1098 meet THX specs or not? Do any of the forum members wish that their pre/pro's had THX certification? What is the advantage or is it just good marketing?

Mark

[ht_addict]

I think its more of a marketing thing, yet when you see Kenwood with THX receivers you have to wonder why Rotel hasn't done it. My trusty Yamaha RX-V1400 that I use as a pre/pro is THX select certified.

ht_addict

[eulogytool]

Oh Yes, the 1098 most DEFINETELY meets THX specs in every aspect and then some...

Here's my take on why it's not added:

1) To keep cost down. Thanks! (And if you think it's expensive now, it would have either cost more with the THX option or Rotel wouldn't have been able to add one or some features they felt would be more useful, or would have had to use cheaper parts). I'm SO glad they didn't do that!

2) Because if you look the 1098 has every THX feature (Rotel XS=Ultra2 music and cinema, Cinema EQ=THX adaptive decoloration, to name a few) so why charge more when Rotel can do these features themselves probablly as good or better than THX...

3) Alot of people wouldn't use THX Ultra2 anyway because they think it makes the sound seem flat.

4) They don't feel the need to put a "hype" label on a already near perfect product. I don't blame them!

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

Eulogytool:

Your statement that the Rotel pre/pro meets every aspect of THX spec is at the very least, misleading, and more likely, outright false. The 1098 does not include any THX proprietary processing so it simply cannot meet THX spec no matter what other forms of processing Rotel came up with. I'm certain the 1098 is a very nice pre/pre, and I'm not saying THX certification is a guarantee that a controller will be better than a non-certified design, but dismissing THX certification, particularly in a controller where the spec means the most, trivalizes something that is not trival.

BTW, I assume you have a 1098? It would be intersting to get together and compare your 1098 with my THX Ultra certified Anthem AVM 20 using the new Rotel amp I just bought from All Pro Sound.

[Scarp]

Another thing ... you will give up somewhat of your freedom to make what you want. Sure you can invest in a good relationship with the THX guys, but still with major changes you have to contact them and get their approval in order to keep the THX badge.

The cirrus chip used by the 1098 is capable of doing all the THX processing (as can be seen on cirrus' website), but still there would probably be other requirements.

The amps that are THX certified where certified before Rotel decided to not do THX anymore. But all other equipment does not have it.

Is it a bad thing? No, since Rotel can lower the price a bit and still sell lots of equipment. They do have the quality to be equal to what a THX certified version does (and sometimes even better).

[Aussie Geoff]

eulogytool,

I broadly agree with you. However doubtless a few THX ULTRA2 users will point out that there are some ULTRA2 features non in the RSP-1098 such as:

• Bass Peak Level Management
• Boundary Gain Compensation
• Timbre Matching for rear speakers

Some of these features have been requested as features (THX or otherwise) in the RSP=1098 wish list.

However my personal opinion is that in general, especially with DPL IIx – most of the RSP-1098 features are as good or better than the THX Ultra ones. For example the DD + IIx Music is better sounding that the THX EX ULTRA2 Music mode etc.

However, that aside THX ULTRA2 certificaiton is a real marketing decsion and Rotel needs to decide whether to include it. Certainly, in preparing the wish list ALL 4 reference competitors had it....

Geoff

[eulogytool]

Eulogytool:

Your statement that the Rotel pre/pro meets every aspect of THX spec is at the very least, misleading, and more likely, outright false. The 1098 does not include any THX proprietary processing so it simply cannot meet THX spec no matter what other forms of processing Rotel came up with. I'm certain the 1098 is a very nice pre/pre, and I'm not saying THX certification is a guarantee that a controller will be better than a non-certified design, but dismissing THX certification, particularly in a controller where the spec means the most, trivalizes something that is not trival.

BTW, I assume you have a 1098? It would be intersting to get together and compare your 1098 with my THX Ultra certified Anthem AVM 20 using the new Rotel amp I just bought from All Pro Sound.

Your kidding right? How was what I said misleading in ANY way? You think that the 1098 couldn't get THX certification if Rotel wanted to? I never said the 1098 did have any THX certified features...I think thats pretty obvious...I said Rotel has THEIR OWN version of most of those features. I wasn't talking about the THX "exclusive" BS because like I said before the 1098 has most of them in it's own propietery form already. Which does make THX certification almost trivial in this case... But, what I was talking about was THX's hardware specifications. Which the 1098 meets with flying colors, that was the original question "Does the 1098 meet THX specifications". He already knows it doesn't have the software...Read the topic...

BTW I was going to buy an AVM-20 (from All-Pro Sound in Pensacola) but I didn't like it's sound much (older DACs). Not to mention I have the addition of PLIIx now. I also used to own an MC-8 and I like the 1098 best of all.

[Azeke]

Gentlemen,

Hopefully I am not adding fuel to the fire, but my personal opinion is as follows. THX is marketing, of course you must conform to the specs dictated by the THX group ( the costs are then passed on to the consumer). The 1098, esp with the DoProIIx upgrade is a sonic enhacement to an already beautifully sounding pre-pro. Would I want to pay the extra money for THX certification? No, not as this point.

Your mileage of course may vary,

Azeke

[Zzap]

THX was on my checklist when I was shopping around for a processor but I was offered such a deal on the 1098 that I couldn't refuse

So now I got THX certified speakers and a THX certified amp but not a THX certified processor - go figure

Some of you couldn't care less but I can say that if THX was offered as a hardware upgrade at a reasonable cost I would go for it.

[Zzap]

Don't get me wrong though - I'm VERY happy with my 1098 and it's a keeper!

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

But, what I was talking about was THX's hardware specifications. Which the 1098 meets with flying colors, that was the original question "Does the 1098 meet THX specifications". He already knows it doesn't have the software...Read the topic...

My mistake, I thought I was talking to someone that actually knew something.

Now, you read the topic, or more accurately, read what you wrote. What do you know about the THX spec as it relates to controllers? Have you any clue what is involved in getting a device as complex as a controller THX certified? (That is rhetroical. i already know the answer.)

How is it even conceivable that a device that does not include any THX processing can meet the THX spec? That is totally ridiculous. Are you trying to say the Rotel 1098 sounds just as good as a THX certified controller? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but that is not the point. THX certification requires the inclusion of specific processing and not including that processing means the product does not meet the spec. Period.

As to why Rotel has chosen not to includ THX on their newest controllers, only Rotel can say. However, knowing what I do about how difficult it is to get THX certified for a controller, and in this context, the longer it takes and the more engineering is required to meet the requirement, the longer to market and the more the R&D costs. That is why I think Rotel did not include THX. They had a pricepoint they wanted to meet and THX certification made that more difficult. Did not getting THX certification make the 1098 a less capable controller? Inpossible to say since we don't have a THX Ultra 1098 to compare it to.

BTW, Eulogytool, you auditioned the Anthem and the Rotel before coming to your conclusion that the Anthem didn't sound as good?

[Andrew Pratt]

My mistake, I thought I was talking to someone that actually knew something.

guys lets stop the personal attacks right now please.

I guessed that it was a cost issue and a lack of faith in what THX adds to a processor for the reason Rotel dropped it in their units. It would have been nice to have the option to try it on the 1098 but not if it meant a higher price tag.

[eulogytool]

"The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi"]

My mistake, I thought I was talking to someone that actually knew something.

Believe it or not your not really the all wise Obi Won. So get over it. I know exactly what I'm talking about and your the only one who doesn't get it...

Have you any clue what is involved in getting a device as complex as a controller THX certified? (That is rhetroical. i already know the answer.)

Of course I do. Just because you don't doesn't mean I don't...

How is it even conceivable that a device that does not include any THX processing can meet the THX spec?

I didn't say that the 1098 meets ALL the requirements to get THX certified because it doesn't (it doesn't have the software) I was only talking about the hardware and reliablity specs and I've said that at least 5 times...Not to mention because there is more to getting a product THX certified (according to THX) than just installing their processing algorithms. But if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't have said that.

That is totally ridiculous. Are you trying to say the Rotel 1098 sounds just as good as a THX certified controller?.

I'm sorry but you are just plain STUPID if you think anything with a THX label sounds better than something without it...Yeah...The Lexicon MC-12 WASN'T 10x better than your AVM-20 before it got THX Ultra2 late last year. Right...There are receivers that cost a few hundred dollars that are THX certified that seemed to pass those "rigorous" THX requirements you talk about. Everyone here knows, if Rotel wanted to they they could add the THX software features, buy the license, pass the cost on to us and be THX certified by lunch. So give me a break...The way you talk it's like your Thomas Holman himself.

That is why I think Rotel did not include THX. They had a pricepoint they wanted to meet and THX certification made that more difficult.

Is there an echo in here?

Did not getting THX certification make the 1098 a less capable controller? Inpossible to say since we don't have a THX Ultra 1098 to compare it to.

Maybe impossible to you...But if you were to read the numerous reviews by almost every major magazine that compare it to the very best of the best controllers (yes, including THX certified ones) you might learn something...

BTW, Eulogytool, you auditioned the Anthem and the Rotel before coming to your conclusion that the Anthem didn't sound as good?

Didn't I say that? Well here goes again...I was going (past tense) to get an AVM-20 but I didn't like it's sound (older DACs).
I'm not the biased one here, you are...Your name is proof enough of that...Star Wars...George Lucas...THX...You make the connection.
O' Wise One

[Andrew Pratt]

eulogytool I've never had to ban anyone before so please STOP with the personal attacks I'd hate to see you or Obi be the first. Obi's been a well respected member of other forums for a long time and has long since earned my respect...but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and watch two members attack each other.

[eulogytool]

eulogytool I've never had to ban anyone before so please STOP with the personal attacks I'd hate to see you or Obi be the first. Obi's been a well respected member of other forums for a long time and has long since earned my respect...but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and watch two members attack each other.

Andrew sorry to put you in that position...As far as I'm concerned it's over. But I do take it personally when first someone for no reason tells me I'm being untruthful and then takes up a notch by saying I don't know what I'm talking about. When all I'm trying to do is help another forum member out...

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

Oh Yes, the 1098 most DEFINETELY meets THX specs in every aspect and then some...

I didn't say that the 1098 meets ALL the requirements to get THX certified...

Case closed.


Andrew, my apologies for littering your forum with this. It has been a long time since I have had the displeasure to deal with such an individual on any of the forums I usually frequent. The fact that he is from my own town makes it even a bit embarrassing for me. I will have to take a bit more time to get the feel of this forum before attempting a discussion of a technical nature.

[Andrew Pratt]

I will have to take a bit more time to get the feel of this forum before attempting a discussion of a technical nature.

I'd love to see more technical discussion here in this and the other forums on the guide site so please don't let this single incident stop you from posting in future. Given you two are in the same town I suggest you meet at a local pub and dicuss this over a pint or three

[Azeke]

I concur with Andrew. We discuss intellectually, not personally, that's what separates this forum apart. Of course everyone is entitled to their personal opnion, but as the saying goes, "It's not what you say, but how you say it".

Let's maintain peace and keep our conversations on a intellectual level, that is in fact how you learn more.

Both of you gentleman are from the same area? Yeah, Andrew they should meet for a brewsky, they may actually become friends.

I digress.

Rotel Topic:

I still would keep the RSP-1098 with or without THX, it is indeed a very good pre/pro for the money.

Keep it true,

Azeke

[dbart]

"Here's my take on why it's not added:

1) To keep cost down. Thanks!"

Makes me wonder what else was removed to keep costs down. If its a marketing decision not to include THX and most other pre's have THX in this price range, I tend to look toward the competition.

In other words, I see this as a marketing mistake.

[Azeke]

Then I guess, the final truth is actually in the ears of the beholder 8) .

Azeke

[ht_addict]

Couldn't Rotel have included THX post processing even without getting it certified? I know my Marantz AV560U that I used to own had some post processing features but wasn't certified.

Kevin

[mpauline]

Thanks to everyone for their input. Sorry I caused some strife on the forum :? I really appreciated the comments made regarding my post.

In the end I have decided to buy the RSP 1098. Ordered it today I pondered alot about whether or not to buy the Anthem AVM 20 because of the THX processing. However I let my ear be the guide and the RSP 1098 won me over. I like the sound of Rotel and the 1098 is a huge jump over my 976 and IMHO a significant enough jump in performance over the 1066 and 1068 to justify the upgrade.

Also bought the RMB 1080 to finish off the amplification.

I think that Rotel needs to consider THX certification in the future if they want to increase their market share. That being said perhaps the cost increase would push the 1098 into the realm of the Krell Showcase etc and diminish it's appeal.

Thanks again and I can hardly wait to get my new gear. Now off to pussy foot around the wife for the next couple of days

Mark

[Aussie Geoff]

ht_adict,

Couldn't Rotel have included THX post processing even without getting it certified? I know my Marantz AV560U that I used to own had some post processing features but wasn't certified.

FYI - Having done the RSP-1098 wish list analysis, Rotel does include a number of "THX Like" features (certainly not all of them) and could (if it wished) make the same claims as Marantz. For example it has Cinema EQ, which is basically the same as THX Re-equalization. It has bass management and loud speaker time correlation, etc. But it does not have all of the features and they are not certified by THX re specifications.

Some of the missing THX features like Adaptive De-correlation are basically redundant with DPL IIx. Others like Boundary Gain Compensation when using THX certified subs (20 Hz) can still be useful in some circumstances. THX remains an active wish list item - though when we've sought priorities - to date people have pushed it down the list, either saying they had a THX unit and generally didn't use the THX ULTRA features, and traded it in for the Rotel because it sounded better OR saying that they would like THX ULTRA but only if it cost no more. We also had people worried (based on informal from other manufacturers trying to add features to their Processors) that the relatively inflexible THX requirements would limit some of the capabilities in the RSP-1098 or Rotel’s ability to respond.

Again - Really this is generally irrelevant as it is the sound that counts .

And ultimately it is a marketing decision for Rotel.

My personal view - Rotel should go to the trouble to get it - licensed code etc is already available from Cirrus.

However the “rumours” I heard earlier this year were that this was unlikely.

Geoff

[Aussie Geoff]

mpauline,

In my quest for an upgrade to my RSP 976 I am pondering why the RSP 1098 does not have THX certification. It seems like all the competition in that price range have THX certification i.e. B & K Ref 50, Anthem AVM 20, etc.

I used to have the same worries and tried all sorts of processors and recievers, then I listened to the RSP-1098 and I don't care any more

You are contemplating a big expensive purchase. I'd listen as much as you can to several Processors. Try the THX and DPL IIx features out while you are there. Bring your own CDs and DVDs and know the scenes you want to use.

You will soon know what you want to buy and be much more confident in it personally than any advice we can give you here.

Good luck and enjoy!

Geoff

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

Couldn't Rotel have included THX post processing even without getting it certified?

No. As far as I know, THX does not allow part of its suite of processing to be used, though a licensee may have some flexibility in how they want to implement the post processing features. Even so, THX certification would be a requirement to put the logo on the unit and to promote any features that are proprietary to THX.

From what I have been told, the actual cost per unit for the license is not the greatest expense. The expense is in the design and manufacture tolerances that meet the rigorous criteria THX has set down. When a manufacturer decides they want THX cetification, they must submit the product they want certified. THX then pretty much runs it through the wringer to see if it meets the specifications they have established for whatever type of product being certified. Controllers are the most complex, and therefore, the most difficult to get right. According to stories I have heard around the campfire, even such capable designers as Lexicon have had controllers sent back several times for modification.

I don't know if this might have been the case with Rotel, but I have also heard there have been companies that simply decided to forego certification when their products do not pass and they decide the expense of changing a design is not worth whatever marketing benefit they may get by carrying THX certification.

Personally, I consider it very unusual that Rotel, a company with some history with THX, would not include THX processing in a flagship home theater product like the 1098. It makes me wonder if maybe they tried and were unsuccessful and decided the pricepoint of the 1098 was more important than the THX logo.

Before anyone else gets their knickers in a twist, I'm not implying the 1098 is in any way inferior. Although I have not had the opportunity to audition the 1098 myself, I do have a little time with the 1068 (or was it the 1066) and I consider that an amazing piece at its price. And, I know enough about Rotel amps to know I wanted one so I am awaiting delivery of a new 1095. Due to a shipping problem, my 1095 was taking longer than planned so my dealer allowed me to bring home a 1075 until the 1095 comes in. Just a couple of days with the smaller amp has assured me I made the right decision to go with Rotel for my main power. But the amps make the issue of the lack of THX certification on the controllers even more odd as the amps are THX Ultra certified. This also leads me to think Rotel has placed price before features with the 1098/1068 products.

As for whether or not THX processing is necessary or desirable, I will only say that I have used THX processing in one form or another for many years. Actually, since THX was first introduced into the consumer market. I feel THX is a very important feature in film soundtrack reproduction, but it is not the be-all end-all. there are some great sounding pre/pros out there, both past and present, that do not carry THX certification. But, I consider it better to have THX and not need it than to want it and not have it. Remember, if the 1098 included THX processing and one did not like what that did to the sound, it can be turned off. Right now, if one has the 1098 want wants THX processing, it can't be turned on.

[eulogytool]

The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi said...Oh Yes, the 1098 most DEFINETELY meets THX specs in every aspect and then some...

I didn't say that the 1098 meets ALL the requirements to get THX certified

Case closed...

Not quite...I was talking about the HARDWARE & RELIABILTY of the unit not the software for the 10th time. Sorry to beat a dead horse. But we all know the 1098 doesn't have THX software....Believe it or not there is a difference between hardware specs and software requirements.

Now case closed...

This whole thing is obviously just a big misunderstanding. I should have made myself more clear. Having said that I'm sorry for arguement on this forum guys. And Obi no hard feelings man...

[JoeHard]

I realize this may be an apple to orange comparison, but here goes. Years ago my buddy bought a Carver amp, when the replacement model came out all Specs where the same except addition of THX certification and a $100 price increase. If buyers want to pay extra, and think theres a sonic benefit buy all means get the THX cert. I have always felt it's a ripoff and will continue to feel that way. I'm happy I didn't have to add $100 to the price of my 1066.

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

I'm happy I didn't have to add $100 to the price of my 1066.

Actually, amp certification is considerably more straighforward than certification of a controller. I suspect a Rotel product similar to the 1066/1068 except with THX Ultra certifiction would likely run rather more than $100 over what the retail price is today. Perhaps as much as $300 - $500 more.

I'm sure you are happy with the pricepoint you paid for the 1066. It is (was) a bargain no matter how you slice it. But, you have no way of knowing what THX may have brought to that piece and how much more you may have found those "differences" to be worth.

[eulogytool]

Also regular DVD's that are THX certified have a THX optimizer menu. And I'm pretty sure those DVDs have some of the THX features encoded into them already anyway (like adaptive decoloration and timbre matching). I heard your not supposed to use THX ultra processing on THX certified DVDs.

[zeppelin]

Personally I dont think A THX Ultra Certified would bring justice to the already the best Rotel product at that price point.
I've already tried and tested A THX Ultra Certified Pre/Pro the MC12 at a dealer demo rm and I did not like the sounding of the MC12 with the THX features 'ON'. It sounds much better with out it. It's kind like dampening and flattened the whole frequency and that's including lost of a lots of details in that original movie.
This is to my personal taste and maybe some of you all here dont like your movies to sound so much brighter, but ROTEL already compensated that by throwing some features that's about the same as THX. So to increase the price of a Rotel product that's already attractive its not really worth it.
And further more even some HI-END manufacturer like the Fosgate opted not to have THX Certification on their Fosgate Audionics FAP T1. This is all due to price and makerting. The cheaper the price of a good quality product the more customer you'll get. That's the whole idea.
So the conclusion is in your own pocket and your precious ears.
If you still wants the option of getting a THX Rotel Pre/Pro than by all means pray for it to come in the near future.

[zeppelin]

Also regular DVD's that are THX certified have a THX optimizer menu. And I'm pretty sure those DVDs have some of the THX features encoded into them already anyway (like adaptive decoloration and timbre matching). I heard your not supposed to use THX ultra processing on THX certified DVDs.

Oh Sorry eulogytool, Compare the SUPERBIT to the THX certified DVDs, I think SUPERBIT titles from Columbia Tristar got the best of the best super qualities Videos and Sound, and this is one good example to show that you dont need a THX certification to get the best quality. Am I right?

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

And I'm pretty sure those DVDs have some of the THX features encoded into them already anyway (like adaptive decoloration and timbre matching). I heard your not supposed to use THX ultra processing on THX certified DVDs.

No, the THX mastering program is completely separate from the hardware certification division. THX mastering has little or nothing to do with how the soundtrack was mixed and mastered for DVD. I happen to agree with zeppelin that the advent of the DVD format and the almost universally high standards of video and audio mastering by the major studios has made THX certification of video mastering virtually obsolete (unlike the days of analog video when THX did bring something to the table).

There are a few DVDs, however, that have been mixed specifically for home theater systems and the mastering company recommends not using re-equalization. These are discs mastered by Mi Casa Studios and are primarily titles from New Line (Blade, Blade II, Lord of the Rings movies, etc.) Despite Mi Casa's recommendations, I find that on some systems, mine for instance, these soundtracks are still rather bright in the upper ranges and THX processing can help smooth things out. This will likely depend on the speakers and controller being used.

Zeppelin is not quite correct with this however...

And further more even some HI-END manufacturer like the Fosgate opted not to have THX Certification on their Fosgate Audionics FAP T1. This is all due to price and makerting.

High-end manufacturers care little about what THX cerification would cost. Their products are usually "cost is not object" design anyway. Even higher-end is Meridian and they do offer THX certification. The reason Fosgate does not have THX is that their senior design engineer, Charles Woods, does not agree with some of THX's design philosophy (he has stated so publicly) so they do not submit their products.

[zeppelin]

"High-end manufacturers care little about what THX cerification would cost. Their products are usually "cost is not object" design anyway. Even higher-end is Meridian and they do offer THX certification. The reason Fosgate does not have THX is that their senior design engineer, Charles Woods, does not agree with some of THX's design philosophy (he has stated so publicly) so they do not submit their products.

So there's your answer to all your question on why Rotel avoided the THX cert. Even if we ourself dont know the real reason on why Rotel avoided the THX certification, Rotel still sounded at its best without doubt and its pricing for what you get is still the best.

Got any doubt on why THX is not the best you can ask "Senior Design engineer Charles Woods" :LOL:

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

Zeppelin:

You are using one high-end company to make your point. Unfortunately, your logic falls apart when you consider many other high-end companies do consider THX a worthwhile addition to their products. Perhaps the highest of the high-end controllers, Meridian, has been using THX for many years. Then there is Lexicon, Krell, Anthem, Classe, Bryston, even old time high-ender, McIntosh, among others.

I don't know Charlie Woods personally, but what I do know about him leads me to believe he is a great guy, and he is very obviously a talented engineer. But just because he has a difference of opinion with the THX engineers does not make either right or wrong. they simply disagree about how certain designs should be implemented.

I seriously doubt Rotel's reason for the exclusion of THX from their controllers has anything to do with design philosophy. I would bet it has everything to do with cost, and how much they wanted to spend on getting the 1068/1098 to market.

Again, THX processing is not a guarantee that a controller will sound any better or worse than a non-certified design. But, it is an inarguable fact that some people find some value in using THX processing with some systems. It cannot be logically argued that including THX processing would have made the 1068/1098 controllers sound any worse since THX processing can simply be turned off. But it certainly can be argued that for people that feel THX processing makes an improvement in soundtrack reproduction on their system, then the 1068/1098 could sound better with it.

[Stevebez]

Sensitive topic ... but here's my bit ...

I was surprised to see THX Ultra on my 1075 and nothing on my 1066. It was my impression that THX is a two fold "mark of excellence" (or at least that’s how it is being marketed) there is the hardware standard and then the software decoding standards - , or if you fall into the other camp - G. Lucas' way of trying to corner the market.

I was under the impression that THX on the software side is only beneficial with THX encoded DVD's ?? Is this so?? On the hardware standard I hope Rotel Kit would conform to this (and perhaps they would given the fact that their amps are / have been certified). The fact that their processors are not certified leads me to believe it’s a software issue only. And the software issue comes down to cost, development time to test and necessity. Sure it would be nice to have the THX badge on your kit, but I guess ROTEL feel the additional cost and the hassle in extended lead times to launching new models is not worth the benefit since their own technology does the job - arguably - just as well.

I like the idea of THX certification, but it is also a little irritating that Mr Lucas has decided that this is the standard we should conform to and his influence in the industry have seen manufacturers scramble to get it. Having said this it is nice to see an alternative to DOLBY etc and may well bring their licences down in price. Competition is good, so it’s nice to have THX around even if it is just to keep Dolby, DTS etc in check.

THX marketing has been very good in creating the impression with the standard that the certified equipment is in some manner better in terms of build and function. This may well be true, but it does not necessarily follow that uncertified equipment is in fact inferior.

[Andrew Pratt]

I don't want to put words into Rotels mouth but from what I was told the only reason the newer amps have the THX logo on them is that the older ones had it and they haven't changed enough for it to warrant it being removed. Essentially Rotel doesn't feel THX offers enough to its customers to make it worth the investment.

Having never owned a processor with THX I can't say one way or the other but I do think its far less of an issue now then it was in the old Pro Logic days etc.

[eulogytool]

I was under the impression that THX on the software side is only beneficial with THX encoded DVD's ?? Is this so??

Not so, With THX Ultra2 for instance you have (music/movies) that adds center back speakers to any normal 5.1 decoding. You can also add BGC (or Boundry Gain Compensation) so that subs in smaller rooms don't sound so "boomy". It also adds Adaptive Decoloration (so films don't sound so "bright") and Timbre Matching for the speakers.

THX DVD's incorporate Adaptive Decoloration, I believe Timbre Matching and a few other THX features already without the need for a separate THX decoder (like in receivers & pre-pro's)

On the hardware standard I hope Rotel Kit would conform to this (and perhaps they would given the fact that their amps are / have been certified). The fact that their processors are not certified leads me to believe it’s a software issue only. And the software issue comes down to cost, development time to test and necessity. Sure it would be nice to have the THX badge on your kit, but I guess ROTEL feel the additional cost and the hassle in extended lead times to launching new models is not worth the benefit since their own technology does the job - arguably - just as well.

Well said...Thats the point I've been trying to make the whole time.

I like the idea of THX certification, but it is also a little irritating that Mr Lucas has decided that this is the standard we should conform to and his influence in the industry have seen manufacturers scramble to get it. Having said l.this it is nice to see an alternative to DOLBY etc and may well bring their licences down in price. Competition is good, so it’s nice to have THX around even if it is just to keep Dolby, DTS etc in check.

I agree, it's definetely better to have it than to not. But when you factor in the added cost it's not worth it sometimes(to me, in this case).

THX marketing has been very good in creating the impression with the standard that the certified equipment is in some manner better in terms of build and function. This may well be true, but it does not necessarily follow that uncertified equipment is in fact inferior.

Exactly!

[zeppelin]

I must agree with Andrew 100%, I owned an old THX Prologic Pre/Pro Fosgate Audionics Model 3A, think is about 10yrs already bought it at a dammed expensive price about US$3000. Its still in my HT room not hook up and collecting dust, cant even find a buyer :LOL:
My point is, at that time Dolby Prologic with THX processing is the best and the way to go and you cant live without it, it really bring justice to the Dolby Prologic, but now the present most of the manufacturers standard are getting better and higher and most of the sound format are in Digital with better separation and sound quality than the old Dolby prologic format, even most of the hollywood movies now dont carry the THX logo anymore at the end of the credits except maybe a few titles like the latest StarWars movies, So I dont think THX right now can bring any justice to the already high quality products such as Rotel.
From my point of view I think THX certification or THX themself are a bit biased or 1 sided, most of their software or DVDs are on Dolby side. I'm really surprize that alot of DTS sound track does not have THX certification, only a few titles. To what I'm aware DTS is way much better than Dolby sound format.
This all comes to my conclusion that its a money driven and maketing hype, I think THX signed a tight agreement with Dolby, since the days of Dolby Prologic.

[Andrew Pratt]

To what I'm aware DTS is way much better than Dolby sound format.

Not really DTS has the potential to sound better but its typically not encoded at full bit rate anymore so there's now very little difference between the two...and what differences there are have a lot more to do with the masters used then the codec's themselves.

[zeppelin]

To what I'm aware DTS is way much better than Dolby sound format.

Not really DTS has the potential to sound better but its typically not encoded at full bit rate anymore so there's now very little difference between the two...and what differences there are have a lot more to do with the masters used then the codec's themselves.

Yes its true some of the movies with DTS track is at 768mbps and some at 384mbps, most of the DVDs and LDs I owned with DTS track is at full DTS potential. My point is if THX is really concern about sound quality why not sign an agreement with DTS or not to go only on 1 sided.
Dolby Digital is already limited(384mbps) cant even go further and DTS got the potential so my quote "To what I'm aware DTS is way much better than Dolby sound format" is correct.

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

Dolby Digital is already limited(384mbps) cant even go further and DTS got the potential so my quote "To what I'm aware DTS is way much better than Dolby sound format" is correct.

Grossly inaccurate. Here's a rundown of some of the numbers on Dolby Digital 5.1....

Theatrical bit rate (5.0) began at 320 kb/s, but has been increased in the past couple of years to 384 kb/s.

Laserdisc used a fixed bit rate of 384 kb/s.

DVD bit rates are 384 or 448. Some studios (Fox, Paramount) have used 448 exclusively. Columbia, MGM, Universal, and Buena Vista initially used 384 but have since switchd to 448 with only very rare exceptions. Warner was the last major studio to continue to use 384, but even they have switched to 448 for most releases in the past year or so.

D-Theater encodes DD 5.1 tracks at 576 kb/s. Yes, they sound fantastic.

Dolby Digital can be encoded as high as 640 kb/s, and all licensed Dolby Digital decoders support the maximum bit rate.

As a personal observation, I have a number of DTS discs using the full bit rate, 1509 kb/s. I used to have a number of laserdiscs that also used what was then the highest rate, 1411. Even at the full bit rate, I have never heard a single DTS track that was the sonic superior of any D-Theater soundtrack I have heard (mix differences aside) of material that would be considered of similar age and overall quality of recording.

[zeppelin]

But than pls remember that only DTS will provide you with pure 6.1 channel as in DTS ES Discreet 6.1 and not that fake centre back that is Matrix from left and right surround channel as in Dolby EX or THX Surround EX.

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

But than pls remember that only DTS will provide you with pure 6.1 channel as in DTS ES Discreet 6.1 and not that fake centre back that is Matrix from left and right surround channel as in Dolby EX or THX Surround EX.

Riiiight. And like that "fake" center back channel in DTS-ES? Not to mention, DTS-ES discrete is still encoded at 754 kb/s, a bit rate that isn't even high enough to deliver flat frequency response above 15kHz for 5.1 channels yet they spread the bit pool out even more for 6.1. Very smart.

[zeppelin]

No Doubt its better than Dolby 448kb/s. IF DTS-ES discrete encoded at 754 kb/s, a bit rate that isn't even high enough to deliver flat frequency response above 15kHz than Dolby will even perform worst at 448 or even 640kb/s. That's why special edition DVDs will include DTS ES Discreet 6.1 cause it still outperforms DD EX.

[The Reviewer Formerly Known As Obi]

IF DTS-ES discrete encoded at 754 kb/s, a bit rate that isn't even high enough to deliver flat frequency response above 15kHz than Dolby will even perform worst at 448 or even 640kb/s.

Sorry, but you lose again.

Dolby Digital at 448 kb/s offers ruler flat frequency response from 20Hz to 20kHz. There is some channel coupling above 18kHz, but this does not affect overall frequency response. DD at 576/640 kb/s is flat from 20Hz to 20kHz with all channels fully discrete (no channel coupling).

No kewpie doll for you.