Downgrading from 1098 to 1968 advice......

[sprout]

Hi all

I have recently sold my 1098 pre/pro.
I have tried something else but not happy.
The 1098 had to go at the time, but now I wish I still had it.

I am considering buying a second hand 1068 and just wondered if anyone has had both and can tell me "specs apart" if they think there is anything I will miss, not counting the screen of course

Thanks

sprout

[Aussie Geoff]

Sprout,

The RSP-1068 vs 1098 is a hot topic mostly for people deciding which to buy... They are close in sound - how close depends on your "ears" and the quality of the rest of the system... Many decide that the 1098 is so small an audible upgrade that they stick to the 1068 - certainly, by most judgements the 1098 is not the twice as good as the 1068 level compared to the price...

I onw the 1098 and have listened very carefully to the 1068 - to my ears, there is a loss of clarity on stereo sound in particular - but it is say 80% of the 1098 and for most people that is enough... I'd buy one and you will get back most of the sound you missed...

Geoff

[Dmantis]

The rsp1098 is better in my opnion. I listened to both and liked the 1098 more. It sounds better for music in my opnion. If I had the extra cash when I got my setup,I would own it.

You didn't say why you sold it. Your not going to be happy with the 1068 after owning the 1098.

Dan

[sprout]

Geoff,

Interesting comments that I feared I may read :E , however that is why I asked.

My problem is the same a lot I suspect, I do not have room for two systems but while I love HT, 2 channel is important to me, probably more so.

I want my cake and eat it I suppose.

I was happy with my 1098 as a 2 channel pre, I still preferred my RC-990BX, but could live with the very marginal difference.

BYPASS? a much talked about point here and many other sites, and it seems only very high end gear has "true" bypass?
Is it possible to feed my RC-990 output to a 1068? if so how? The fact that the 1068 does not have true bypass? it will be: messy? losses? problems?
If this could be done with no loss, then I could still feed my CD and vinyl through the 990 :T

Dan

I sold it mainly due to financial constraints at the time, unfortunate but neccessary.
I just used stereo with my old RC-990BX in the interim.
I have had the chance to use a HK AVR-8500, it's OK but single boxes cannot compete for me. I do like the Logic 7. I thought about using this as just a pre, but it is well bulky, and a waste of all the amps built in.

I feel I will need to visit a dealer who has both the 1098 and 1068 setup and listen carefully to a 1072 through both.

I know most love the 10 series finish, I do :T , but I still have a soft spot for the look of the old. I still have a RC-990BX, RB-990BX & RCD-991AE

Thanks for your help so far lads, and I welcome any further input.

Cheers
sprout (chilly UK)

[Aussie Geoff]

BYPASS? a much talked about point here and many other sites, and it seems only very high end gear has "true" bypass?
Is it possible to feed my RC-990 output to a 1068? if so how? The fact that the 1068 does not have true bypass? it will be: messy? losses? problems?
If this could be done with no loss, then I could still feed my CD and vinyl through the 990 :T

Yes you can though it is a little fidly. Basically connect the RCD-1072 to the CD input of the RC-990 and the RC-990 to your amp. Connnect the pre-outs for the Front L and R from your 1068 to a line level input on the RC-990. You will need to reclibrate your 1068 using the centre speaker and then set the L and R to 0 Db and then adjust the volume on the RC-990 to be the same using an SPL meter. Once this is done you can then always play stereo through the RC-990 and HT through the 1068, but with the RC-990 on and set to the line input with the volule calibrated to the setting you found. Sounds tricky but its easy once set up. Many people use this to get true HF stereo for their HT systems...

Hope this makes sense...

Geoff

[grit]

I've wrestled with this 1068/1098 debate before. *Now*, my preference is the same as Sprout's : I want HT, but LOVE 2-ch stereo. I ONLY listen to my 1072 via my 1068 in bypass mode because anything else isn't as good.

I know there are different DAC's in the 1098, and I've read the debates about differences (if any) in 5.1 surround. I've never seen/read anything about differences in the "bypass" mode. Could someone please elaborate on those, and what impact they've experieced with them?

[sprout]

Yes you can though it is a little fidly. Basically connect the RCD-1072 to the CD input of the RC-990 and the RC-990 to your amp. Connnect the pre-outs for the Front L and R from your 1068 to a line level input on the RC-990. You will need to reclibrate your 1068 using the centre speaker and then set the L and R to 0 Db and then adjust the volume on the RC-990 to be the same using an SPL meter. Once this is done you can then always play stereo through the RC-990 and HT through the 1068, but with the RC-990 on and set to the line input with the volule calibrated to the setting you found. Sounds tricky but its easy once set up. Many people use this to get true HF stereo for their HT systems...

Hope this makes sense...

Geoff

Geoff, sounds a cracking idea to me if I understand you correctly, which I think I do.

Just clarify, you mean set the 1068 L/R to 0db offset and then adjust the volume of the 990 'till I get the same level on my SPL meter being produced by the centre with the test tones being generated :T Hope I got that right.

Thanks again Geoff, oh and of course correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Cheers
sprout

[sprout]

I've wrestled with this 1068/1098 debate before. *Now*, my preference is the same as Sprout's : I want HT, but LOVE 2-ch stereo. I ONLY listen to my 1072 via my 1068 in bypass mode because anything else isn't as good.

I know there are different DAC's in the 1098, and I've read the debates about differences (if any) in 5.1 surround. I've never seen/read anything about differences in the "bypass" mode. Could someone please elaborate on those, and what impact they've experieced with them?

Yes I welcome comments too :T
I believe if I do what Geoff has suggested successfuly, then I am not expecting much of a difference on the HT front between the 1068/98 which I would be well happy with :T :T :T or will I :E

Regards
sprout

[Bluespower]

Geoff,

Very intresting topic going on here. Snoopy used to shake his fist and shout "Curse You Red Baron". Well that's kinda how I feel after living with my 1068/1095 for the last 7 months.

I knew I was buying nice AV processor/amp but I was not prepared for how good two channel was going to sound in analog bypass. It has really shifted my focus and conjurs up a whole bunch of coulda/woulda/shouldas.

With that said, I have to ask (and I'm sure it has been asked before), how much better is the RC-1070/1090 than the RSP-1068 for bypassed stereo?

Also, this seems so obvious that there must be a good reason NOT to do it. My thought was...

Why can't you put a "Y" adapter on your left and right power amp inputs? It would seem that you could have your cdp cabled to the RC-1070 feeding one set of L/R inputs on the power amp while the DVD player cabled to the RSP-1068 feeding the other set of L/R inputs on the power amp as well as the amp(s) for the remaining channels?

I can't imagine that if one or the other pre amp/processor was turned off that there could be any harm done? I could imagine something evil happening if the power amp was receiving signals from both sources. What am I missing/not knowing?

[Kevin D]

Why can't you put a "Y" adapter on your left and right power amp inputs? It would seem that you could have your cdp cabled to the RC-1070 feeding one set of L/R inputs on the power amp while the DVD player cabled to the RSP-1068 feeding the other set of L/R inputs on the power amp as well as the amp(s) for the remaining channels?

I can't imagine that if one or the other pre amp/processor was turned off that there could be any harm done? I could imagine something evil happening if the power amp was receiving signals from both sources. What am I missing/not knowing?

A lot of things:

1) Unless you have a toggle power outlet, you would be risking trouble for that one day you forget to turn one off before the other.
2) Hooking two preamps to one amp will effect the impedance of the cable (you have three terminations instead of two). This could have more effect on the sound then running a better preamp.
3) Getting a good quality y connector can be tough. You cables would only be as good as the weakest section.
4) A lot of sources and preamps short the outputs/inputs when turned off. If either do, the other isn't going to work.


It could work, but its really not a good idea.

Kevin D.

[sprout]

A lot of things:

1) Unless you have a toggle power outlet, you would be risking trouble for that one day you forget to turn one off before the other.
2) Hooking two preamps to one amp will effect the impedance of the cable (you have three terminations instead of two). This could have more effect on the sound then running a better preamp.
3) Getting a good quality y connector can be tough. You cables would only be as good as the weakest section.
4) A lot of sources and preamps short the outputs/inputs when turned off. If either do, the other isn't going to work.


It could work, but its really not a good idea.

Kevin D.

Kev,
I suppose a high quality stereo phono switchbox could be used? if such a quality item exists, could be made?

sprout

[grit]

Each time you add an interconnect, you're gonna degrade the signal. Honestly, I'd recommend separate systems or some other solution.

Kevin, can you comment on the 1068/1098 comparrison with respect to "bypass" mode.

[Kevin D]

Kevin, can you comment on the 1068/1098 comparrison with respect to "bypass" mode.

Not really.. I think I've used bypass 2-3 times on my 1098. By definition though, 'bypass' should be pretty close between the two. But I'm not really a stereo guy, so I'm hanging back on this one.

Kevin D.

[Bluespower]

Kevin,

Thanks for the kindly worded reply. I was fairly confident it was a dumb/inadvisable idea, and now you've laid those suspicions to rest.

How about this one while we're what-ifing:

Two seperate source/pre/amp feeds to one set of speakers? Is there a switch on the market (any manufacturer) of sufficent quality to allow this to work without degredation?

[Kevin D]

I think Sprout's idea of a RCA switchbox would be less of a sound interference then a speaker level switcher. Both both are available.

Kevin D.

[grit]

Geoff, how about you? Any experience in the 1068/1098 bypass mode comparrison?

[Aussie Geoff]

Just clarify, you mean set the 1068 L/R to 0db offset and then adjust the volume of the 990 'till I get the same level on my SPL meter being produced by the centre with the test tones being generated Hope I got that right.

Absolutely... Once you remember this setting then each time you want to do home theatre - set the 990 to that volume and then use the 1068 to control everything...

Geoff, how about you? Any experience in the 1068/1098 bypass mode comparrison?

Absolutely... I spent a couple of happy hours with a friend last year comparing the two to help with his "which to purchase decision". The bypass on both is very good. However there was (to both our ears) a decided extra layer of clarity (the famous "darker" background) where tinier details and finer 3D stereo imaging came through.. Basically the bypass on the 1098 was closer to a pure stereo pre-amp than the 1068 -though both were good. Inded the 1098 was arguably hard to pick from the RC-1070 preamp on pure stereo - but the RC-1090 clearly put it in its place...

This is one where it very much depends on just how much you need very high quality stereo... If you do then it is the 1098 OR the 1068 with the bypass trick to a separate pre-amp so the CD player goes in to the pre-amp and does the L and R of the 1068.

However my friend thought that for more than twice the price - the stereo difference was too small to justify... However for me it reinforced my pleasure in having bought the 1098 (different priorities and budgets!)

Geoff

[grit]

That helps tons, thanks!

[Bluespower]

Geoff,

My question for you is:

Did the RC-1090 have a digital display for the volume setting? If yes, I could see how what you are proposing could work very nicely. If no, how close does a "history mark" on a pre like the RC-1070 get you when surround is needed?

[Aussie Geoff]

My reply to a PM from Bluespower

Bluespower,

You sent me this PM which I thought I would answer here to share the information with others (even though it is a little off topic)

You have me completely obsessed with going down this road and I'd really like you to help me by answering a few questions. I'm considering doing this to a 1068/1095 combo and I'd really like to feel good that I'm not creating a monster.

I understand exactly – the excitement of getting a new piece of equipment… The opportunity to take your 2 channel listening to the next level..

1) From your experience, how close does a lining up a "history mark" on your volume knob get you being set correctly when going back to multi channel (RC-1070/90)?

Most pre-amps volume control have a range of 60 to 80 DB over about ¾ to a full turn. This means that each quarter turn is about 20 db and an eith turn is about 10 db (give or take). Now you need to match about 1db to get a really crisp 3D HT sound field… So with most volume knobs you are taking 2-3mm of accurace or about 1/10 of an inch. Best way to get this is to create a small removable mark. I have used tipex / whiteout / liquid paper successfully to create a tuny mark on the base plate where you need to align one of the markings on the volume control knob. If there is no marking / line on the knob then you need to create a matching tiny mark their right near the face plate. In practice this are invisible unless you are very close to the face plate and are easily removed. This makes the volume easy to set every time…

2) Would a pre amp with a digital display for the volume make this a foolproof proposition?

Yes – but IMO no more foolproof than the mark as above… Besides very few quality pre-amps have the digital volume display as they tend to be purist designes using analoge volume controls.

3) The RC-1090 has a digital display but I think it is only used to display "source" and "record" information. Am I correct or does it have a mode to show the volume setting in a digital format?

Correct – no volume display.

4) If the answer to #2 is yes, do you have any experience with the Halo P3 OR do you have any recommendations?

The Parasound Halo P3 is nice but I have not done comparative listening – you might want to try Club Parasound where there will be several eager posters to tell you about it. One other (left field) choice is the NuForce P8 from www.nuforce.com a excellent value pre-amp..

I really hate to bother you at home, but like I said, I'm obsessing and I have a chance to buy a RC-1090 at a reasonable price.

I understand… The RC-1090 is a very nice pre-amp which I know well… If you want to stick to Rotel – go for it – I am sure you will like it..

Geoff

[grit]

This is one where it very much depends on just how much you need very high quality stereo... If you do then it is the 1098 OR the 1068 with the bypass trick to a separate pre-amp so the CD player goes in to the pre-amp and does the L and R of the 1068.

However my friend thought that for more than twice the price - the stereo difference was too small to justify... However for me it reinforced my pleasure in having bought the 1098 (different priorities and budgets!)

Geoff

Hey Geoff,

I just re-read this. To your ears, the 1098 sounds as good as a stereo pre-amp, and the 1068 does not? Or sounds as good as the RC-1070 pre-amp? If I read everything correct, you felt the RC-1090 was better than the 1098, correct?

[sprout]

Hi all and thanks for all the input, looks like it has been of use to a lot :T

Now as 2 channel is very important to me, and I have an ever growing number of boxes :lol: my aim has to be more space but not less pace :B

I have taken a dfferent line now to reduce my number of boxes.
Geoffs idea worked very well with my RC-990, thanks :T

However if my new purchase lives up to my hopes, I can stop using my 990 pre. it will be missed, it has done 10 yrs wonderful service :B

After much tought and reading, the truth is, Dolby digital and DTS is really all I need, so I want to do that well and do stereo well from one box.

I will be keeping all my Rotel amps and get them to partner my ex-demo Proceed AVP which arrives next week.
I have just sold my RCD-1072 and an RB-1080 and as you know my 1098.

I will finally part with my RC-990BX and RB-990BX but I am retaining my RCD-991AE

If all goes well I will partner the Proceed with a 991 and a 993.

For anyone interested I will let you know how I get on.

Thanks

sprout

[Aussie Geoff]

I just re-read this. To your ears, the 1098 sounds as good as a stereo pre-amp, and the 1068 does not? Or sounds as good as the RC-1070 pre-amp? If I read everything correct, you felt the RC-1090 was better than the 1098, correct?

The RSP-1098 on bypass mode sounded very close to the sound quality of the RC-1070 pre-amp, while the RSP-1068 was clearly less revealing...

The RC-1090 pre-amp is (to my ears) significantly better at stereo than the RSP-1098 and (of course) the RC-1070...

So an RC-1070 or (even better) RC-1090 using the technique described above would help with the stereo sound of a RSP-1068 or similar (RSX-1056 or RSX-1067)... And a RC-1090 (or better) would be required to significantly improve on the stereo from the RSP-1098...

Note Rotel uses better op-amps in the CD L and R inputs on the RSP-1098 so make sure you use those if you want good sound...

Hope this helps

Geoff

[gianni]

Note Rotel uses better op-amps in the CD L and R inputs on the RSP-1098 so make sure you use those if you want good sound...

Geoff

Geoff,

Do you know if this is true for the 1068/1056/1066/1055 etc?
I was of the understanding that the multi-inputs were the cleanest for these models.

Thanks

[wirebrat]

Here's a reply I received on this issue from Rotel regarding the sonic differences between the two units:

There is a slight improvement in audio from the 1098. This unit uses relays instead of IC’s for switching which gives a better sound. The RSP-1098 also has three separate power transformers inside, one is a AC filter and then one is designated for the analog portion of the unit and the other is designated for the digital portion. The RSP-1098 uses 4 24/192 CS43122 DACs where the RSP-1068 uses 4 24/192 AK4395VF DACs. Other than that the functionality of the two units are the same.

All the Best, Steve