Rotel's new scaler

[ml360]

Does anyone have any information on the new REV-1070 HDMI scaler,and the new power conditioners?

[Kevin D]

Scaler is 4 HDMI in, 3 component (& /RGB I think) in, and 2 s-video/composite in. 1 HDMI out and 1 component out. Will scale to 720p or 1080i on the component out, 720p,1080i, 1080p on the HDMI out. Fully integrates with any of their receivers or pre/pros using RS232 (auto switching) or can be controlled via IR.

I'm not sure if the unit will scale to any custom resolutions (for plasma's) but I would hope so.

The conditioner and UPS specs can be found in the other threads, but no lead time on release.

Kevin D.

[Kyle]

Sweet, can't wait for one of these! Do you know what chipset it is using for scaling?

Any idea on price?

[Kevin D]

No idea on chipset, price was $1500-2000 I believe.

Kevin D.

[Kyle]

Hm, $1500-$2000 seems pricey to me. If a RSP-1068 costs around that much, what point is there in buying the scaler when you can just wait until later in the year to buy the 1068/1098 replacement that will have HDMI built in, and sell your 1068/1098.

[jim777]

Hm, $1500-$2000 seems pricey to me. If a RSP-1068 costs around that much, what point is there in buying the scaler when you can just wait until later in the year to buy the 1068/1098 replacement that will have HDMI built in, and sell your 1068/1098.

The scaler should be good for dvd *and* satellite TV, etc.

And scalers included in many tvs are not too good...

[moe32274]

Perhaps you can explain why McIntosh recently declined to include HDMI scaling on its universal disc player claiming that scaling is best left to quality HDTVs?

See the link: www.ultimateavmag.com/dvdplayers/605mc/

Regards,


Moe.

[jim777]

Yes but they made a scaler, the VP1000, that will output HDMI.....

[pciav]

Perhaps you can explain why McIntosh recently declined to include HDMI scaling on its universal disc player claiming that scaling is best left to quality HDTVs?

See the link: www.ultimateavmag.com/dvdplayers/605mc/

Regards,


Moe.

Perhaps so they can sell you their own overpriced VP? See Here.

[Kyle]

My point was I figured this technology would be included in their new DSPs..

[ml360]

My point was I figured this technology would be included in their new DSPs..

Kyle;if what you're saying is true,how long will we have to wait for the replacement and it will probably cost much more then the scaler.Also,Rotel is a company that states"upgradeable software means you won't be left behind by new advances either"...............hmmmmmmmm

[Kyle]

But, if you are an owner of a 1098 or 1068, you paid at least $1500 for the unit (in the case of the 1068). Add a videoscaler to that and that could be $3500. I'm guessing the 1068 replacement won't cost $3500.

[moe32274]

Hey Kyle - I took a look at your setup. How do you like RedBook audio from the Oppo?

Thanks,

Moe.

[Kyle]

Moe, so far I don't think it is bad at all. My previous player was also a DVD player and an old one to boot (a JVC from '01). I can't complain for $199, but to be honest I haven't really done much critical listening yet.

[pciav]

Until "quality hdtv's" start to include video processing chips like the Realta HQV, Gennum VXP, or DVDO/ABT upcoming solution to name a few, simply put, there is nothing than can compete with a quality external video processor.

It is my understanding that the Rotel RVE-1070 is going to use the same chip that Classe is using in the new top of the line DVD player. Off the top of my head it is a solution from Analog Devices. Chip No. ADV???. The last I looked the specs looked good, but until it is released and tested who knows.

Support for a Video Processor takes a lot more than for a Surround Processor. Have peek over at the AVS Forum Video Processor Section and you'll get a pretty good idea. If Rotel is going to support custom resolutions in this processor (if they are only going to support standard video resolutions, then it is dead before it is released), I do not think they will be able to provide the support necessary. The chips are only half the equation. Frequent software updates are necessary to solve problems.

Treat a VP no different than your SSP (1068, 1098 whatever it is). Although it is convenient and the idea of having it all in one box sounds great, I do not want my VP in a receiver or SSP. I want to be able to upgrade without having to upgrade everything; hence separates to provide the highest quality and easiest upgrade path.

I currently use a Lumagen VisionPro HDP Video Processor and I am patiently waiting for the next generation of chips and I am intrigued by Rotel's offering and definitely want to check it out when it is released.

Phil C.

[Kyle]

Thanks for the informative post Phil. I realized there was a difference beforehand and that the RVE-1070 was more than just a "switchbox", but based on the lack of specs on this thing I wasn't sure exactly what was going to be inside this thing.

The one thing that would convince me to buy one of these is if i could get it to output 1:1 to my display (768p), I'd love to be able to use my laptop via DVI, my DVD player and my STB and have them display natively on my display (and have it look great).

My new laptop (although it hasn't arrived yet, macbook pro) doesn't do 1366x768 or any native HD resolutions via its DVI interface, so I'm a tad worried that if I use my display as a monitor it isn't going to look so hot.

[Kevin D]

Also keep in mind the new replacement processors will have HDMI 'switching' not scaling. It might convert everything over to HDMI too, but a 480i DSS unit will still be 480i after going through the receiver.

Kevin D.

[pciav]

...The one thing that would convince me to buy one of these is if i could get it to output 1:1 to my display (768p), I'd love to be able to use my laptop via DVI, my DVD player and my STB and have them display natively on my display (and have it look great).

My new laptop (although it hasn't arrived yet, macbook pro) doesn't do 1366x768 or any native HD resolutions via its DVI interface, so I'm a tad worried that if I use my display as a monitor it isn't going to look so hot.

Kyle,

Without 1:1 Native Rate Mapping the RVE-1070 is dead in the water. Hopefully it will support custom resolutions. The problem with custom resolutions is that Pansonic's timings for 1366 x 768 is different than NEC's 1365 x 768 and Pioneer's 1280 x 768 etc. A lot of support is needed. Not all displays are Native Rate Friendly. There are plenty of 720p displays available currently and 1080p displays are coming; however, most Plasma's and LCD's currently available are of non-standard video resolutions, so the need for custom resolutions.

I am a PC guy and have little experience with Macs; however, on my Dell Laptop wich has an nVidia graphics card and my previous Laptop which had an ATI card, both had/have DVI and when hooked up to my NEC 61XM2 61" Plasma automatically sync up at native rate by reading the EDID info from the panel, do Macs not do the same thing? I would try it when you get it to see.

It's been a year since the announcement of the RVE-1070; hopefully we will see it sometime this year and it will surprise us all at how good it is. It has potential if priced right.

Phil C.

[Kyle]

Good info, I'll have to see. My new tv arrives on friday, and my macbook in another 3 weeks, you can bet that one of the first things I'll do is try to play World of Warcraft on the Bravia

[begood]

Until "quality hdtv's" start to include video processing chips like the Realta HQV, Gennum VXP, or DVDO/ABT upcoming solution to name a few, simply put, there is nothing than can compete with a quality external video processor.

It is my understanding that the Rotel RVE-1070 is going to use the same chip that Classe is using in the new top of the line DVD player. Off the top of my head it is a solution from Analog Devices. Chip No. ADV???. The last I looked the specs looked good, but until it is released and tested who knows.

Actually, the Classe DVD Player uses a new chip developed by National Semiconductor. If Rotel is using the same chip, then their scaler should perform quite well. Clink on the link below if you are interested in viewing Secrets’ interview of a National Semiconductor manger discussing their chip

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/videos/secrets-studios/nikhil-balram-nsc-7-21-05/nikhil-balram-nsc-7-21-05-index.html

[Claude D D]

Here's some info I received at work.

[pciav]

Claude,

I believe you are right about National Semi Conductor. Their chip designation starts with AVC and I confused it with the Analog Devices ADV designation.

The info you posted above does not say anything about custom resolution output. I hope this changes... Thanks for the info.

Phil C.

[Kyle]

Question, it says that you should leave your existing audio inputs running into your DSP.

One of the benefits to HDMI to me is just simplifying your cable setup. Does this mean that if my DVD player, or Xbox 360 or whatever has HDMI, that I'll still need to run Toslink or Digital coax to my DSP? That sort of sucks. I can understand if for example I'm using my Oppo DVD player which has DVI-D out, that I'll have to do this, but I'd like to just run HDMI from all of my "real" HDMI capable components into the RVE-1070, and then patch the 1070 into my 1068 via a single digital connection.

It's a minor thing but for $1500-$2000, I'd love to be able to "save" some money in other areas by not having to have digital cables..

[Kyle]

Also, that picture isn't as cool as the one from the show last year

[pciav]

Kyle,

Re: HDMI and Audio - Without having HDMI in your processor, how do you expect it to work? There is no place to pass the signal to. The RVE 1070 makes no mention of any audio input/switching or output HDMI or other.

HDMI in theory is great, one cable for audio and video; however, it is seriously flawed in today's market as they are so few devices to take advantage of it not to mention the ever changing spec, forced upgrades based upon spec changing, the poor connector, the list goes on.

Unless you route everything through your receiver or processor with full HDMI switching cabailities, it is next to impossible to implement HDMI for anything other than video and will require a separate audio interface for the time being until things settle down, the spec stablized and compatibility issues solved.

Lets take a scenario of a simple setup: HD Cable/SAT STB with HDMI out -The HDMI out will carry Video and Audio, Video Processor - Must be able to accept HDMI Video and Audio, Process and send out HDMI Video and Audio to your fully HDMI capable Receiver/Processor - the audio is decoded in the processor and the video switched to your display. You will be hard pressed to find separates that can perform that operation right now. I know of no processors that can do it. The DVDO VP30 is the closest thing on the VP end, there are few receivers, but can't name a Surround Sound Processor yet.

Lots of work to be done on every front not including the HD-DVD, Blue-Ray Format war...The future is bright, but IMO HDMI is not ready for real world use today.

Phil C.

[Kyle]

When I sat down and throught about it some more, I realized that even if the 1070 handled the HDMI audio signal (just passed it through), that it would be sort of limited. Sure you could assign all of your inputs on your Signal Processor to say, digital input 1 (or whatever input you ran audio into from the scaler) and assign different settings to each input (group delay, whatever), but I guess that is potentially confusing.

Up until I bought my TV, i really didn't give a damn about HDMI, component can deal with most HD signals with no problems. However, most of the lower-end "upscaling" DVD players don't upconvert over component outputs (like my Oppo) which sort of forced my hand on HDMI. I *have* to run DVI -> HDMI into my TV bypassing my signal processor if I plan on upscaling my DVDs. If I don't, I'm stuck with 480i, which sucks.

I'm all for having a more simple setup, the amount of cabling I have in use right now for a relatively "simple" setup is cumbersome to say the least.

Nature of the beast I guess, like you said until all of these formats settle down a bit, all of this stuff is too bleeding edge for most people. It brings to mind the whole DVI -> HDCP/Broadcast flag issues of a couple years ago. Half the early adopter HDTV users I know have held onto their pre-hdcp gear to "protect" their rights, despite the introduction of exciting new technologies like 1080p.

[pciav]

Kyle,

Upconverting to 720p or 1080i with a 1366 x768 display is kind of pointless as you are now processing that signal twice. Every input format sent to your display must be scaled to the panels native rate of 1366 x 768. Depending on the processing capabilities in the display, sending pass through of the formats received (480i, 480p, 720, or 1080i) may produce the best results, letting the display handle all the deinterlacing and scaling. You will find this out by trial and error as to which you prefer.

Using an upconverting DVD player is fine if you have a 720p or 1080i display and the DVD Player does the 480i > 720p or 1080i conversion as the signal is just process once. With your Sony, 480i is processed by your Oppo to 720p or 1080i and then re-interpolated by the display and scaled to 1366 x 768. This is not optimal and usually will produce inferior results.

The idea of the VP is to take the pure native broadcast or dvd signal 480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i and do all the processing and output the result at the display's native rate, i.e. 1366 x 768.

My simple scenario above entails 3 HDMI cables to make it happen. In my current setup it requires the same number of cables, three (HDMI > DVi to VP, Digital Coax to SSP, and DVI > HDMI to th Display). No matter how you slice it right now in theory it sounds good, but we are not quite there yet.

Phil C.

[Kyle]

Phil, thanks for the advice, I'll have to see what works out best for me. I was just checking out Resident Evil in superbit 720p and it looked pretty snazzy, but like you said I'm doing conversion twice. I'll try outputting 480p (technically not upscaled) to my tv and see how that looks.

[jim777]

You should try 480i too, because deinterlacing is more critical than resizing. Your display may be the best, who knows!

[PewterTA]

Is it just me, or does it seem silly to have only 2 component and 3 svideo and 3 composite...!?!?

I mean heck, my 1098 has 4 Components to it... and I don't think I even use any of my composite (well I do for the DVD player and HDTV for the front LCD), but no SVideos for anything.

To me you'd want like 4 component, 2 Svideo, and 2 composite....

Maybe it's just me.

[pciav]

PewterTA,

I am waiting for the day when we do not have to deal with anything analog! The only analog source I have left in my system is my xBox which for me is not critical. I know everybody's needs are different.

For me I can't imagine anyone wanting to use a VCR anymore or for that matter any composite or S-Video source. Component will be around for awhile longer and it still has merit and use. With the threat of the analog hole being closed, besides legacy devices, how many analog inputs do you need?

If you were putting a system together today, how many analog video sources would you have? The sooner an all Digital In and Digital Out Video Processor is made, the sooner we can move forward.

Again, this is just me and I do realize there are a multitude of situations and tons of legacy devices, but its coming to a time to start to let them go. Everyone wants more digital inputs on newer devices. The only way to get them is to give up the real estate and resources taken by analog devices.

Phil C.

[bzrk]

hmm only 1 hdmi out i want 2 outputs : projector and lcdtv

[jim777]

hmm only 1 hdmi out i want 2 outputs : projector and lcdtv

Well the McIntosh "overpriced VP1000" (quote) has two independant scaler and is probably 12-bits like their dvd player instead of 10-bits.

Now 2000$ * 2 scalers * 4-times more resolution means that the VP isnt that bad :W

[grit]

I'm still not clear on all this. Does the RVE-1070 scale everything up to 1920x1080 (that's what the picture says for HDMI)? Or is that the MAXIMUM to which it can scale? As was mentioned above, there's little to no point in converting a signal from 480i to 1920x1080, and then having my monitor (TV) convert it back to a native resolution.

[Kevin D]

So far we know it will scale to 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p (HDMI only).. If it doesn't scale to any custom resolutions I don't see the point.

Kevin D.

[rockbobmel]

No idea on chipset, price was $1500-2000 I believe.

Kevin D.

No Way!! That's stupid. If your DVD player has HDMI and the TV has HDMI, then skip the RSP and wire it straight to the TV.

Only thing. No HD Dolby, DTS

I'm pissed that Rotel has stupid S-Video on the current RSP-1098-- and no HDMI/HD Audio upgrade modules to be available.

WHY make replacable modules when they never intended to use them.?????????????????????????????????

[ml360]

If Rotel plans to make a video scaler for the new up coming formats.What will they do for the audio end like dd-plus and dts-hd?

[Kevin D]

No idea on how they plan to handle DTS and DD HD.

As far as your idea RockBob, keep in mind that this is not designed to scale upconverting DVD players (it could I suppose). It's designed to scale everything else (DSS, normal DVD, VCR, etc).

Kevin D.

[Kyle]

There isn't really a need to use an upscaling dvd player with a scaler like this if it can scale to custom resolutions.

[Stevebez]

From the description it seems it can do "intermediate" type scaling ....

I will quiz my dealer for some info.

Rgds Steve

[Andrew M Ward]

I'm still not clear on all this. Does the RVE-1070 scale everything up to 1920x1080 (that's what the picture says for HDMI)? Or is that the MAXIMUM to which it can scale? As was mentioned above, there's little to no point in converting a signal from 480i to 1920x1080, and then having my monitor (TV) convert it back to a native resolution.

The RVE1070 scales every thing coming into it, to 1920x1080 using de-interlacing, line doubling and video algorithms to accomplish this. Once the source is scaled to 1080P it is out-put at whatever the video display device (HDMI input) “hand-shakes” at...

It’s designed to be convenient and look great with any video display device, if you stay up at night worrying about 768 horizontal fixed pixel lines versus 1080 or 720 you need to wait and buy something else, you also need to wait and but a real 1080 display that actually hand-shakes at 1080, not 720 (like they all do)

TV flat panel manufacturers spend as little as possible on internal scaling, that’s why you see 1920x1080 fixed pixel display devices with internal scaler’s that don’t even match their panel configuration (odd?) no, not odd, Cheap and easy!

Just my 2 cents

[pciav]

The RVE1070 scales every thing coming into it, to 1920x1080 using de-interlacing, line doubling and video algorithms to accomplish this. Once the source is scaled to 1080P it is out-put at whatever the video display device (HDMI input) “hand-shakes” at...

It’s designed to be convenient and look great with any video display device, if you stay up at night worrying about 768 horizontal fixed pixel lines versus 1080 or 720 you need to wait and buy something else, you also need to wait and but a real 1080 display that actually hand-shakes at 1080, not 720 (like they all do)

TV flat panel manufacturers spend as little as possible on internal scaling, that’s why you see 1920x1080 fixed pixel display devices with internal scaler’s that don’t even match their panel configuration (odd?) no, not odd, Cheap and easy!

Just my 2 cents

Andrew,

I guess Rotel does not expect to sell many RVE1070's then... Non-standard resolution displays far exceed standard video resolution displays. Anyone who owns a digital display device and wants to add a scaler needs Native Rate Support. Someday 1920 x 1080p will be the norm and we are moving towards that, but if Rotel is releasing the RVE1070 now, to me and many others it is a waste of time. Rotel has eliminated virtually all Plasma and LCD owners at this time as the number of Native 720 & 1080 displays is limited. Of course they can accept the signal, but it is a waste of time since the signal will then be processed twice.

This is an Audio dominated forum by nature of the mfg./product being discussed, but many take their video as serious as their audio. Who is this product targeted towards? I wish Rotel luck with this one.

Phil C.

[Kyle]

If what Andrew says is true, I for one won't be buying one. There are only a handful of truly 1080p sets on the market right now. I realize Rotel designed this for the future, but there is going to be a good long time before the majority of users even mid-range enthusiasts like us are going to have "real" 1080p sets.

I guess I'll just end up buying whatever HDMI switching Signal Processor they come out with to replace the 1068. Who really cares if this thing can upscale your cable or VHS to 1080p? Even with a fantastic scaler, I doubt the end result of sending a 480i signal from my DVD player into this thing to get blown up to 1080p would really look much if any better than feeding it into the internal Faroudja scaler on my tv. Not for $2k anyway.

[Andrew M Ward]

Andrew,

I guess Rotel does not expect to sell many RVE1070's then... Non-standard resolution displays far exceed standard video resolution displays. Anyone who owns a digital display device and wants to add a scaler needs Native Rate Support. Someday 1920 x 1080p will be the norm and we are moving towards that, but if Rotel is releasing the RVE1070 now, to me and many others it is a waste of time. Rotel has eliminated virtually all Plasma and LCD owners at this time as the number of Native 720 & 1080 displays is limited. Of course they can accept the signal, but it is a waste of time since the signal will then be processed twice.

This is an Audio dominated forum by nature of the mfg./product being discussed, but many take their video as serious as their audio. Who is this product targeted towards? I wish Rotel luck with this one.

Phil C.

I'm confused?
Are we concerned about "picture looking better" or "picture processed twice"?

I have a Sharp Display that is 768... When I plug my DVD player right into it ~ it looks fine... When I run the DVD player through the RVE1070 it looks even better.... even though some tasks are being done twice... the picture drastically improves.

Seems simple to me...

I suppose we can postulate and yammer about things being processed twice, but ultimately it's a convenient device to plug everything into and then run one HDMI to the display device, and Oh by the way, everything looks much better as well...

Rotel will sell thousands of this device (Thousands!)

[Kyle]

Our point is, most of us who have Plasma or LCD tvs have decent built in scalers (faroudja et al). Some of us also have upscaling DVD players of varying levels.

Sure, if you run all your video upscaled or not through an RVE-1070, it will look "better". The point is, if it isn't outputting at a "custom" resolution native to our displays, it isn't ideal.

At the end of the day, if you look at what my $199 Oppo DVD player does with its built in Faroudja processing, vs what a $2000 RVE-1070 does, I think that since it is being processed twice either way, that the end result isn't going to justify the $1800 difference.

With _so_ many Plasma and LCD sets running at non "native" HD resolutions like 1366x768, that it isn't going to be worth spending the money on when 90% of the end result could be handled by a less expensive scaler or upscaling DVD player.