5.1 System with Used Rotel Equipment?

**grit** · 14 January 2006, 01:35 Saturday

Welcome wkananna! I'm not sure what your question is, but I certainly agree with your decission to go with Rotel gear over Denon. I've read Denon does well as a processor, but the amplifier is lacking. I'd recommend a dedicated CD player (the Rotel's are great) for improved 2-channel sound.

**wkhanna** · 14 January 2006, 10:49 Saturday

Hi Grit, and thanks for the reply!

I am trying to get some advise on HT and the opinion of owners of earlier Rotel equipment. I don't have a technical grasp on all the Dolby, DTS and other types of coding and the advantages they offer; and am not sure if I will be missing out on the assets these technologies offer. I want a system that does not compromise when playing CD music, but if I buy an older pre/pros that does not have latest decoding for surround, will I be spending good money on a poorly performing HT set-up.

For example, I mentioned the RSP 980 that has Dolby Pro-Logic, but stand-alone decoders/processors that can be added to it to provide Dolby Digital, DTS, THX . If I don't add these other decoders, would I be wasting my time and money? Or should I limit my choice to pre/pros that already incorporate some or all of these feature?

I already have, IMHO, great performance from my two channel set-up for playing CD's. I don't demand the same type of staging and precession for DVD's in a basic 5.1 HT system.

TIA guys!

gd · 14 January 2006, 13:40 Saturday

Dolby Digital (DD) and DTS are bare-minimum requirements for proper discrete surround playback for DVD movies (and an increasing amount of digital cable TV)... Dolby Pro Logic (DPL) does nothing more than simulate surround from 2-channel sources... DD and DTS are found on even the cheapest entry-level AV receivers anymore... the difference between DD/DTS and DPL is night and day... do not buy a pre-pro or receiver without them; otherwise you might just as well play back movies in 2-ch only.

I think your biggest bang for the buck would be to simply add a digital-equipped Rotel AV receiver (RSX-965, 972, 1055 or 1056) to your existing system... you could continue to connect your critical 2-ch music sources directly to your existing pre-amp, as well as the front pre-out from the AVR for when you listen to surround material.

Used Rotel AVRs - and pre-pros - routinely show up on Audiogon and other classifieds... I think that in your case, where you want to add on a no-frills HT to an existing 2-ch rig, that an AVR is a better economical solution than a pre-pro, plus additional power amp, plus extra cables.

Your AVR choice need not be Rotel, but it would be nice to keep it in the family... Rotels AVRs enjoy 'a cut above' reputation compared to most others... either way, if buying used, do your homework and make sure your choice has the connections necessary to create the system you want.

Happy hunting.

**wkhanna** · 14 January 2006, 14:59 Saturday

Wow GD!!!
I just learned more in your first paragraph than I have in the last two weeks of researching!
These are just the specific questions I have been trying get answers to.

After checking the specs on the RSX 965, looks like a great choice for an economical solution for my needs.

My current pre is a Soundcraftsman PRO-PT FIVE-R PRE-CEIVER that has been wounded by a voltage spike during a electrical storm. It sill functions, but I notice loss of separation and front some panel controls do not operate properly.

For this reason I am considering a pre/pro and another multi-channel like the RB 956AX (6x30 that can be used to bi-amp rears for example and power the center bridged) or the RB 951 mkII (6x60 bridgeable) and using my current RB 980BX for the front L/R channels.

Any sugestons on this alternative solution?

gd · 14 January 2006, 16:52 Saturday

Originally posted by wkhanna

current pre is a Soundcraftsman... has been wounded... For this reason I am considering a pre/pro and another multi-channel like the RB 956AX (6x30 that can be used to bi-amp rears for example and power the center bridged) or the RB 951 mkII (6x60 bridgeable) and using my current RB 980BX for the front L/R channels.

You mean in addition to the RSX-965 receiver?... if so, it doesn't make sense to add a pre-pro to a receiver... just for clarity, any AV receiver contains a pre-pro, a multichannel power amp (and a radio tuner) all in one unit... if you get a receiver, you would not need an additional pre-pro, which is exactly a preamp plus surround processor, and nothing more... all pre-pro's and most receivers (depending on age) will have sufficient pre-outs to accommodate whatever power amp configuration you plan.

Given your descriptions, I still recommend getting a receiver (and at that, try to move up one notch to a 972), and simply adding your existing 980BX to power the fronts (mains)... at that point you'll have a strong basic modular system in place on which you can build bi-amp solutions... and do that as your time and budget allow, all the while enjoying a fullly functioning system... you'll need / want a sub long before you do any bi-amping, and a sub will take a load off the receiver and/or power amps anyway.

You'll have a strong 2-ch system in place to boot... dunno if it will compete with the wounded Soundcraftsman, only you can say... but Soundcraftsman doesn't exist anymore, so maybe it's time to move on.

I've not done any bi-amping, no input there... but there are tons of threads on the subject on this forum, do a search... it can be a large commitment.

Again, I suggest adding only a receiver for now.

And, as you are buying used, research to ensure connectivity.

**rockbobmel** · 14 January 2006, 21:34 Saturday

I just sold my RSP-985 on evilbay.. This would do the trick for you. They are out there.

**grit** · 15 January 2006, 04:05 Sunday

I'd agree with GD - get a receiver or pre-pro. I'd not give too much thought to bi-amping, and bridging usually results in reduced sound quality.

Dolby Digital is the primary format used for DVD's. Some DVD's can also be found in DTS. Both formats decode into 5 descrete channels + a subwoofer (thus the 5.1 designation). As GD said, sources that are just 2-channel (TV, VHS, etc.) *can* be processed by Dolby Pro Logic II which "fakes" surround sound. Most DVD's include a menu with different sound and language options. Usually, you'll find the movie can be played in either 5.1 surround, or in stereo (2-channel).

Finally, most pre-pro or receivers will allow you to configure settings to make sure everything sounds as it should. For example, if you do not have a center channel speaker, the sound that SHOULD go to a center will be re-routed by the processor into the front L/R speakers. Thus, if you're missing one or more speakers, the processor will compensate.

So, if you end up missing a center channel, or subwoofer, etc, you'll still be just fine, and can add to your system at a later time. Frankly, I wish I'd gone that route... by the best 2-ch music system I can, and add to it later to get home theatre.

**buddy711** · 15 January 2006, 15:22 Sunday

Similar Situation

I'm in process of purchasing new equipment and will be getting a 1072 cd player for my music collection(which is mostly classical and jazz). Since I want to get a new lcd tv later on, I'm considering a denon 3805 a/v receiver. My challenge is what left and right floor speakers with a center to get initially to hear my music well in a 12x16 room.

The denon 3805 or 3806 was recommended because of the versatility, but sales people in south florida seem to wander all over when it comes to speakers. I figure I can add the others for surround sound when I purchase the tv. I'd like to spend 800-1200 for the first three--is that possible? and what brands, models would work best with above?

**wkhanna** · 16 January 2006, 19:36 Monday

You guys are great and give good sound advise (truly bad pun intended) on practical solutions.
I want to apologize for even bringing up the Bi-Amp topic, as that is not relevant to the immediate situation other than my Signet two-ways can be powered individually, but with the RB980BX, I believe that it’s a moot point since I have a wealth of power as it is.

As far as my SoundCraftsman pre/receiver is concerned, I agree with ‘gd’ that it’s time to move on. When I bought it around twelve years ago, I was planning on adding a good quality turntable and needed/liked the phono circuit. But alas, my entire media collection is digital. I guess I just get sentimental sometimes. It served me very very well, but it’s time to get with the “Digital Age’.

After thoroughly considering all the thought provoking info and advice, my fantasy plan is to find a Rotel pre-pro that has all the requisite decoding features used in the $300 - $400 range, add a used separate Rotel tuner in the $100 - $160 range, and used separate Rotel RB951 mk II 6x30 multi-channel amp in the $200 - $250 range. Then my practical side will find a really nice RSX 972 for around $500 and extinguish my fantasy in a single ‘Buy it Now’ keystroke. And in the end I will have a great system that is perfect for my current needs and wallet.

Oh well, I can dream, can’t I?

Thanks to all for your comments, help and advise; I’ll keep you posted on my Quest.

**yog** · 17 January 2006, 20:30 Tuesday

Adding 980BX to RSX-972

Originally posted by gd

You mean in addition to the RSX-965 receiver?... if so, it doesn't make sense to add a pre-pro to a receiver... just for clarity, any AV receiver contains a pre-pro, a multichannel power amp (and a radio tuner) all in one unit... if you get a receiver, you would not need an additional pre-pro, which is exactly a preamp plus surround processor, and nothing more... all pre-pro's and most receivers (depending on age) will have sufficient pre-outs to accommodate whatever power amp configuration you plan.

Given your descriptions, I still recommend getting a receiver (and at that, try to move up one notch to a 972), and simply adding your existing 980BX to power the fronts (mains)... at that point you'll have a strong basic modular system in place on which you can build bi-amp solutions... and do that as your time and budget allow, all the while enjoying a fullly functioning system... you'll need / want a sub long before you do any bi-amping, and a sub will take a load off the receiver and/or power amps anyway.

You'll have a strong 2-ch system in place to boot... dunno if it will compete with the wounded Soundcraftsman, only you can say... but Soundcraftsman doesn't exist anymore, so maybe it's time to move on.

I've not done any bi-amping, no input there... but there are tons of threads on the subject on this forum, do a search... it can be a large commitment.

Again, I suggest adding only a receiver for now.

And, as you are buying used, research to ensure connectivity.

How you do that, adding the 980BX to an RSX-972?

Thank you!

gd · 17 January 2006, 21:04 Tuesday

Front left and right pre-outs of the 972 > left and right inputs of the 980.

**yog** · 17 January 2006, 21:55 Tuesday

And do you bridge something on the 972 to give more power to the center & suround?

Thank you!

gd · 17 January 2006, 22:58 Tuesday

No... the 972's center and surrounds amps will automatically have an easier time driving their speakers when an external amp is used for the fronts... not necessarily more measurable power, but rather less work for the 972 transformer to do.

**yog** · 18 January 2006, 09:33 Wednesday

So the speaker feed by the 972 continue to have 75 wpc.

And if the other speaker have a 100wpc amp , is this cause some problem?

If i plug a subwoofer on the analog sub output, and config the AVR with "large" speaker, it is right to think that this will not give less work for the 972?

Thank you

gd · 18 January 2006, 13:27 Wednesday

Originally posted by yog

So the speaker feed by the 972 continue to have 75 wpc. And if the other speaker have a 100wpc amp , is this cause some problem?

No.

Originally posted by yog

If i plug a subwoofer on the analog sub output, and config the AVR with "large" speaker, it is right to think that this will not give less work for the 972?

Less work for the 972, if you are using an external amp (980) for the fronts.

More work for the 972, if you are using its own internal amps for the fronts.

Logical, right?

**yog** · 18 January 2006, 15:18 Wednesday

Forget the external amp 980, and plug all 5 speaker on the 972,

If i plug a subwoofer on the analog sub output, and config the AVR with "large" speaker, it is right to think that this will not give less work for the 972?

gd · 18 January 2006, 15:22 Wednesday

Originally posted by gd

More work for the 972, if you are using its own internal amps for the fronts.

'Large' = more work.

'Small' = less work.

**yog** · 18 January 2006, 15:27 Wednesday

sub plug on analog output & 'Large' config

=same work than

no sub plug on analog output & 'Large' config[U]

Right?

Thank you!

gd · 18 January 2006, 15:30 Wednesday

Right.

**wkhanna** · 19 January 2006, 16:51 Thursday

Does anybody have experience with or comments on the RSP 976, incuding what might be considered a fair price on the used market for a unit in 8-9 / 10 condition?

I have located one in the $400-$450 range and am seriously considering picking this baby up. It is at the upper limit of my budget, since I will need another multi-channel amp (for Suround and Center power) and turner to complete my HT upgrade for under $800. After that, it's time to start saving for a Sub.

Also, I read one owner review on audioreview.com that stated the OSD is not available when using S-Video I/O. The manual on the Rotel site says nothing of this. My TV is not the newest on the block (36” Sony CRT) and only has composite and S-Video inputs, but works fine for now using the S-Video for DVD. I don’t plan replacing it until I have completed the audio portion of my HT upgrade and refilled the coffers (at least one year). I would obviously like to have OSD compatibility, and this seems a little odd to me if it is true. Or do you think this a case of an owner lacking understanding the equipment?

**Tha Freak** · 19 January 2006, 17:53 Thursday

Originally posted by yog

sub plug on analog output & 'Large' config

no sub plug on analog output & 'Large' config[U]

doesn't that makes a "doubled bass" issue? since the sub is receiving the sub bass of the sound track (the 5 ch one) + the LFE (the .1) and the speakers are reseiving a full frequency signal ??

And this is quite an interesting topic for newby who want's to integrate a HT into an existing 2ch set up!! :T

**wkhanna** · 19 January 2006, 19:40 Thursday

As I ( a newby ) understand it…. In the 5.1 config. Your two best speakers (those with the greatest/best freq response) are used as the front right and front left. If you do not have a Sub, you would set them for Large ( full range of signal freq ) in order to extract the most Bass from your system. At the same time, you are asking these speakers to do as much ( or more ) ‘work’ as they are capable of, by producing high, mid and low freqs all at once, and the power supply to give them as much power as possible in order to get good bass response.

If you then added a Sub, the Sub output is sending only the Lower end of all the combined channel signal feq to the Sub, and it is up to the Sub amp to supply the needed power for moving mass quantities of air. You would then want to set your front right and left to a Medium level, snubbing off the Lower end of the signal freq, thus allowing them to not have to deal with reproducing the power-hungry Low end freq, but instead use that available power to reproduce the Mid and Higher freq with more clarity since this is more in the range of their designed performance envelope. The trick is to get smooth crossover transition between the Sub and front right and left.

If you left the front right and left setting at Large while using a Sub, then you get the ‘double bass’ Tha Freak referred to. In this config, your front right and left are still being asked to produce the Low freq, and this can cause them to sound ‘muddy’ while losing a tight crisp Mid and High as they are asked to still deal with the Low freq. But if you want/like the ‘thump’ this would give it to you.

Now, I am I way off track, or just in the wrong county?

5.1 System with Used Rotel Equipment?

5.1 System with Used Rotel Equipment?

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment