B&W, DAC's, and other comparison questions with 1068 vs 1098 and 1075 vs 1095

**DrBoom** · 02 April 2004, 11:28 Friday

Hi Sam,

I have the B&W 804's too, together with the HTM2 center and 805 rears.
I really like the detailed sound the 804's are capable of delivering when powered with a really good amplifier.
Sad to say I didn't find this in the Rotel RMB1075, which I've had for 3 months and I recently sold.
I use the RSP1098 as a pre/pro, which I like a lot.
I'll tell you why I didn't care for the 1075 that much.
First, the sound was way to soft for my taste, highs were virtually non-existent.
I could barely hear the tweeter doing anything.
The second thing which actually bothered me even more than the highs, was the complete lack of control in the bass.
I work in a hifi store and we sell B&W too, but we had them powered with a Classe CAP151.
Comparing the sound between my 804's and the ones in the store, it became quite obvious the Rotel wasn't getting the most out of them.
Overall I found the sound very dull, lacking punch in the bass, and very uninvolving.
I then decided to try a different poweramp, and stumbled upon a 2 year old Parasound HCA2205AT in mint condition.
I asked the owner for a home demo at my place, and I can tell you the difference was night and day.
The sound immediately came alive, with sooo much more midrange detail, crisp highs and really tight bass than I ever had with the RMB1075.
So it became very obvious that the poweramp was the weak link in my system.
I've always known the Nautilus range to be very picky about amplifiers, this just confirmed it.
Lets not overlook the fact that the Parasound (new) is 3x as expensive as the 1075 here in Belgium, retailing for €4500 instead of €1500.
I believe they retail for around $2000 in the US, which is really a bargain compared to what they cost here.
It's also way more powerful, with 5x 220W instead of 5x 120W.
Nevertheless, I'm extremely happy with my upgrade.

Ofcourse, this all depends on your personal taste I guess.
I've heard some people use the 1075 to power their 802's, something I just can't imagine doing, but if they like it then that's just fine.
I don't know how different the 1095 is from the 1075, but I can imagine the overall sound will be quite the same.

Regarding cables, I'd start by keeping your existing cables for a few months at least. Then if you're not satisfied you can start looking for upgrades, but you should get to know your new system first before doing that.
I use Kimber myself, 8TC + 4TC bi-wired, and Hero interconnects.
I would advise to use bi-wiring, made a big difference on my speakers.
Transparent cable is a very well known brand, and expensive too

I don't have any experience with them myself, but I've heard good things about them.

I'm very curious how you'll like the sound of the 1075 on your 804's if you decide to audition it, so let us know

Kevin

**Andrew Pratt** · 02 April 2004, 14:07 Friday

Welcome to the Forum:T

I'm running the 1075 with a 1098 pre amp and I really like it. I've got no doubts however that at some point I'm going to add a 1080 to the front speakers since like you mine will really shine with more power. For most people I don't see the use in having more power going to the surround speakers then what the 1075 can deliver since most of the time they're set to small and really only used for effects etc. Granted SACD and DVD-A is changing that somewhat but I still stay for most people a 1075 for the sides, rears and centre paired with a 1080 for the fronts would be ideal. The Parasound mentioned above are highly regarded as well but nearly doubling the power makes that comparison a little biased...it would be better to compare the 1095 to that amp but yes different amps will sound different and there's lots to pick from.

As for interconnects at a minimum you'll need one interconnect for each speaker amplifer so in a 5.1 system you'll need 6 and in a 7.1 you'll need 8. The forum's sponsor in CatCables makes some very nice interconnects that range in price from very reasonable to very expensive. If you're working with a budget (aren't we all!) I'd suggest getting a single pair of SilverCats for the fronts and then a lesser line for the surrounds etc. The silver will also significantly help you retain the detail you're looking for in those 804's.

**aud19** · 02 April 2004, 15:47 Friday

The 1068 should sound better to you than the 1066 and the 1098 should sound better than the 1068. But everything's relative and if you neither have the funds and the improvement of the 1098 over the 1068 is not big enough to warrant it's price increase, (to you), you'll still be very happy with the 1068 me thinks

As for the amps, if you stick with Rotel, I'd go with what Andrew said. I think a 1075 and a 1080 for your mains would be an excellent performing and smart money setup. That's the setup I intend to move towards (when the girlfriend let's me :? ) But it does depend on your listening tastes. If you do significantly more movie watching (or SACD/DVD-A) than music listening you might find the 1095 a better solution. Though both setups will give you awesome sound. Also, as Kevin stated, listen to some other amps. You might just prefer them with your speakers.

As for cables, I say you write an e-mail off to Lex (AKA Doug) at Cat Cables. He's awesome at listening to what your gear is and how you want it to sound and tailoring cables to suit your equipment, tastes and budget.

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

**mule.variant** · 03 April 2004, 04:23 Saturday

Hi GSamF. I'm new around here as well, but thought I'd chime in.

I was in a VERY similar situation, running a pair of N804s with a Denon receiver. I auditioned the 1068 and 1098 in store, and honestly can't say that I heard a difference. In my room, maybe, but not in the store. So, I bought the 1068. I did audition a 1075 and a Classe CA201 (for the mains) in my room, and that was a different ballgame. The Classe really had a vice-like grip on the 804s and made the highs just sing. But it really didn't sound $2800 better, so I ended up with the 1075 as my only amp (I run 5.1 only). The 1075 sounds really really nice and will probably be a huge improvement over your current rig. And mine has no problems driving the 804s.

**GSamF** · 03 April 2004, 04:50 Saturday

Thanks for your input guys.

How about the DAC differences? Should I upgrade the component to processor wires first or the pro to amp? Which will have the greatest effect, cuz if I do it, I want to do it right and might not have enough funds to do it all at once.

Anyone else compare the Rotels with B&W's?

BTW, met Bob Stuart tonight (co-creator of Meridian) at my dealer's store in WA. Very interesting stuff. Couldn't believe all the beautiful pure digital sound of the $28K speakers (active w/ 4 separate 100w amps inside). The Center must have been 4 feet long and the sub was like a huge rectangle coffee table. Amazing gear but slightly out of my price range.

(Hopefully am doing my Rotel sidebyside next Thursday!)

**Adz** · 03 April 2004, 14:00 Saturday

When upgrading cables, I have always been advised to "start at the source"; so that would be your DVD to the processor. That should be your best connection.

Have you taken a look at the discussion on the modifications that can be made to the processor? If I were starting over again, no question I would have bought the 1068 and put up to the extra $1300-1400 into upgrading it.

Adz

**aud19** · 03 April 2004, 14:30 Saturday

To a point I agree with "start at the source" for cables as there's no point in starting with a bad signal and trying to improve it. Just remember that your gear will only sound as good as your weakest link. So having $10,000 cables from your source to your pre/pro won't mean squat if you've got a set of $5 cables running from pre/pro to amp.

Adz brings up a good point re: upgrading the components in the 1068 if you desire better performance than stock units. Just remember there are warranty implications for that. So do at your own risk.

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

**Martinf** · 05 April 2004, 11:55 Monday

Hi GSamF,

I’ve been reading this thread with interest. I myself have a RMB-1075 power amp, and an RMB-1066 pre. Had them about six months now. The combo is used for both movies and music in 5.1 configuration. My source is the excellent Denon DVD-5900 universal player.

In short, I am very pleased with my purchases. One thing is for sure: there is NO LACK OF TREBLE. It sounded good when new, but has become even better after six-months burn-in. Somebody mentioned here that it didn’t sound like his tweeters were doing anything with the RMB-1075. Is he deaf? Do his ears suffer from the 5-15kHz ‘dip’? :-)

On the contrary, on my system, there are times (i.e. with some bright-sounding CDs) that I have to turn the treble DOWN a bit. I rarely, if ever, have to turn the treble up, and even then it never goes above +2. As for bass, there’s no shortage of that either. There are times when my bass drivers are reaching the end of their excursion limits. Sometimes I have to turn the bass down to -4 on the preamp to avoid shaking the neighbours!

It just goes to prove what a good amp the Rotel is when people start comparing it to Parasound and Classe, even though it’s one third the price. In short, there is NOTHING else out there that can touch the RMBs unless it’s twice (or thrice) the cost.

Of course the Parasound and Classe (and Bryston, Krell, etc. etc.) are very good in their own right, but one has to be realistic:
i.e. The reality is that I would have been mad to spend £2,450 (British Pounds) on a Parasound HCA-2205AT (the power amp alone), when instead I bought the RMB-1075 for £850 and the RSP-1066 for £900. These ‘amply’ (pun intended) satisfy my needs.

Moreover, with both together costing £1,750, I still had a whopping £750 left over to put towards my Denon player (a £1,700 player).

Like you, I was looking for an amp solution that would be a step-up in sound quality from any receiver-based solution for music and movies, and what I got simply blows away ANY receiver out there, and also gives the established hi-end multichannel separates crowd a serious run for their money.

**annex666** · 06 April 2004, 13:36 Tuesday

Hi - it's good to find a fellow Brit on the forum!

Would you mind if I asked you a few questions?

I own a Sony combo home-cinema amp and DVD player and I'm looking to upgrade to a Denon DVD 2900 and a pre-power system (possibly from Rotel). My speakers are B&W 600 series 3 (603, 601 and LCR60).

What do you know of the 1066 pre-amp and 1066 power-amp(i.e. cost and performance)?

Would it be worthwhile to invest the extra (£???) to go for the 1068/1075 combo?

Thank in advance for your reply

**Andrew Pratt** · 06 April 2004, 15:33 Tuesday

Hi - it's good to find a fellow Brit on the forum!

I'm originally from North Yorkshire myself. I didn't move to Canada until I was ten.

**soundhound** · 07 April 2004, 07:57 Wednesday

Heres another $.02 For people looking for hard to beat 2 channel w/ 5.1 capability.The RSP-980 (msrp 2k) can be had on ebay for under $300. All the compatible decoders also go for around $100 -$200 ea. I have taken that approach, spending the majority of money on an RMB-1075, RB-1080,
and accesories. I seriously considered one of the 7.1 channel models but started from the outside and am working my way in. The amps will not go out of date as technology changes and so to me it makes perfect sense going about it this way. I am assuming most members here have "built" their systems versus 2nd mortgages to "buy" a system. The point being that the RSP-980 is quite a performer on the front end and can be had for a song for anyone looking to put a system together.

**Martinf** · 08 April 2004, 05:39 Thursday

Annex666,

You asked:-

>> Would it be worthwhile to invest the extra (£???) to go for the 1068/1075 combo? <<

The 1066 is much less powerful than the -1075. So, in answer to your question, yes! (Greater power means a lot more than just being able to go loud -- it means a more robust sound overall and better reserve for dynamics). You could go for the even bigger RMB-1095 if your budget will go that far.

Go and audition the RMB-1075 power amp along with the RSP-1068 processor at some place like Sevenoaks. Get them to use the six analog bypass inputs using a DVD-Audio or SACD source in 5.1 mode (I prefer the sound of DVD Audio -- better treble dynamics and clearer sound overall than SACD).

Good DVD Audio demos:- Frank Zappa "Halloween"; Tubular Bells 2003; Bach St. Matthaus Passion (Teldec Warner); Yes "Magnification"; REM In time, “The Best Of”; any DVD-A by AIX records; Handel “Messiah” (Arts Music) etc.

Use appropriate speakers – i.e. from Monitor Audio, Tannoy (e.g. Sensys DC2 range), or B&W, plus an REL Strata III active subwoofer.

Also try it with a good DTS movie soundtrack using the processor's on-board decoder -- this requires the digital coaxial SP/DIF connection between the DVD player and the RSP-1068.

Thirdly, get an ordinary CD, and again, using the coaxial connection between the DVD player and the RSP-1068, play the CD back in Dolby-Prologic II surround mode.

(I got my system from Sevenoaks). Got a good deal too — 0% interest-free credit over nine months. (But if you pay just one day late, then they hit you with about £1,000 of back-dated interest payment — so beware!)

**tombowlus** · 08 April 2004, 11:11 Thursday

Originally posted by Adz

Have you taken a look at the discussion on the modifications that can be made to the processor? If I were starting over again, no question I would have bought the 1068 and put up to the extra $1300-1400 into upgrading it.

Can you point me to this discussion? I can't seem to find it. I have an RSP-1066, and am interesting in either upgrading or replacing it.

Thanks, Tom.

**aud19** · 08 April 2004, 16:49 Thursday

Here ya go Tom

http://www.htguide.com/CFBoards/index.cfm?fuseaction=Threads.viewthread&Tid=99874&Forum=25&StartRow=1&CFB=1

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

**tombowlus** · 09 April 2004, 11:02 Friday

Thanks, Jason!

Tom.

**GSamF** · 15 April 2004, 01:41 Thursday

I FINALLY got to demo the 1075, 1095, 1068, and 1098 with all blind a/b tests. Wow, that was fun! As promised, here is what I think...

I used my B&W 804's for fronts to listen to 2 channel music. I first tested the 1068 and 1098 with the 1075. I decided I liked the screen on the 1098, but it was only worth about $300 to me. So the 1098 would have to sound $1,000 better for me to buy.

The 1098 helped separate the signals without making them sound sharp (seems contradictory). The instruments seemed to have more of a smooth transition from note to note mainly in the high ends. I enjoyed the 1068 too, and I thought both helped tame the 804's brightness some. I do think the 1098 was the better processor, but in my opinion, not $1,300 better (or even $1,000).

Then I moved to comparing the two with the 1095 amp. Wow, the low end really opened up using both the 1098 and 1068! My dealer put on a song with only an accoustical bass playing, and I didn't think my speakers had that much to give, but it belted out the low end, sounding like there was a lot more to spare. The 1095 improved all aspects of the sound, somehow cleaning the highs and especially adding a much larger soundstage (which is important to me).

After listening to the 68 and 98 with the better 1095, the 98 still had the same better characteristics, but the differences in all aspects narrowed between the two processors significantly.

Watching movies in 5.1 had pretty much the same high impact comparing the two amps with each other, but the difference between the 98 and 68 was quite negligible, listening to both music and movie dvd's (using both the HTM2 and HTM1 as center and dipole surrounds).

I believe it to be quite rare in home theater that paying 2x as much gives you 2x of performance. I believe the 1095 did just that comparing it with the 1075 (as a side note, I think the HTM1 vs HTM2 center had the same double impact). However, even with the kick ass tft screen on the 1098, my ears just couldn't justify the $1,300 difference in price compared to the 1068. There definitely was a difference to the discriminating ear, and I am sure there are some out there who thinks it sounds that much better, but I thought the difference shrank after adding the 1095 in music, and was almost non-existent in the 5.1 theater sound.

So I am waiting for my new 1095 and 1068 to be delivered in less than 10 days. I can't wait. I will probably get the lessor HTM2 center and do their upgrade in a year plan and get the HTM1 then.

My 2 cents worth, but as someone on this forum says, "let your ears be the judge"

Sam

**aud19** · 15 April 2004, 12:36 Thursday

Well congrats on the new gear Sam

Thanks for the info though as you pointed out I'm sure a few people would disagree with the sound quality difference betwen the 68/98. Also some people may find incremental improvements for the $1300 difference worth it. Obviously, as you decided, that decision is best left to the individual, their tastes and their wallet.

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

B&W, DAC's, and other comparison questions with 1068 vs 1098 and 1075 vs 1095

B&W, DAC's, and other comparison questions with 1068 vs 1098 and 1075 vs 1095

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