"Breaking in" equipment or ears??

[thyname]

Hi guys;

When I first got my RCD-1072 I felt it sounded very harsh at the beginning and much better and warm in a week or so after several hours of play. That was all my certain perception. However, at another forum I participate, several guys argue against the concept of "Break in" period, claiming that they have never heard of a CD player getting "broken in". Of course, I choose to believe my own ears from my own experience rather than other people. As I don't believe too much on cables and interconnects warming up or breaking in, I really think that this is an important factor on cd players and speakers... I also know that there is also a certain amount of psychologic influence on the perception of what people expect to listen from a new equipment versus their old one.

What do you guys think???

[NewBuyer]

I think our ears get more used to the sound, over time. It is our ears that "break in", not the equipment! Just my opinion.

[PewterTA]

I think honestly, it's MORE you breaking in than the CD/AMP/Speakers/whatever. But there is SOME breakin to a speaker. Anything that has any moving parts after time will "settle" or "break in." Friction and heat has a lot to do of it.

If I had to guess, I would say it's like 60/40 or 70/30 to you getting used to the new sound over the unit actually breaking in.

[DrJRapp]

Anything electronic with capacitors has a break in period before the capacitors "form", and come up to their true values. This "forming" period can vary from a few seconds to weeks.

[aud19]

I believe in break-in, though I also agree that at least some of it is psychalogical.

[basementjack]

Break in always seemed like a hoax to me, though if you add the human side, I can see a "break in" talking place where the brain re-trains itself to get what it needs from the new sound.

If ever a scenerio comes up where one of us has a chance to do a side by side comparison with a broken in piece and one right out of the box - I'd be interested in the results.

[Dmantis]

Break in is very real. Most companies will tell you how long it takes for there given piece to break in. I know alot of you own B&W, there are the worse right out of the box. I used to Install B&W and alot of our customers wouldn't believe how they sound out of the box. After a week to 2 weeks of playing, they would open up and sound like they should.. I used to put some hours on them before I would let the customer here them.

Harsh and tight is what most stuff sounds like untill it's broken in. Speakers I feel you can hear, alot of gear I find harder to tell. I have owned many new speakers and noticed everytime. Right now I'm breaking in a Pair of Dynaudio Audience 82's, they now have about 40 hours on them and they keep sounding a bit better. The bass is warming up and the Tweeter is sounding sweeter.

Dan

[benny]

Just a/b a "broken in" player against a "brand new" unit, maybe blind test. I think your ears will notice the difference right away. Your ears won't "break in" in two minutes so then you will know what's what.

[DrJRapp]

Just a/b a "broken in" player against a "brand new" unit, maybe blind test. I think your ears will notice the difference right away. Your ears won't "break in" in two minutes so then you will know what's what.

This wasn't exactly a test but I recently had the opportunity to "change out" my 1098 for a new one. Rotel service supposidly "burned-in" the new unit for a few hours, but there was still a difference in sound between my 5 month broken in 1098 and the new one with only a few hours on it. The difference was slight, but the older unit WAS smoother.

[pyroponic]

I'm still awaiting my Rotel RSP-1068 and RMB-1095. Seeing how my speakers are still just a few weeks old, do you think maybe running my system at moderate levels for a week (probably during the day when i'm not home, so about eight hours a day) is a good idea? I want to speed up this break-in period if possible.

Or is it advised to just let everything break-in naturally?

[GregoriusM]

I just bought a pair of Paradigm Monitor 5's and a Rotel 1056.

My sales person, who is fairly knowledgeable, said to give the speakers at least 40 hours of break in time, and, to my surprise, give the Rotel a good 60 hours of break in time.

[soundhound]

pyroponic, leaving you're system run during the day is about as natural break in as you will get. I am with Jerry in the fact that the electronics need to be "seasoned", and it is not like a new engine where rpm (compared to volume) is so much a factor, as it is the frequency (the full 10 - 20 khz). Every new Rotel I have purchased has sounded clinical out of the box, and then mellowed, and opened up after some run time. They will ramp into this versus hitting a switch and there they are (broken in).

[weijst]

I'm willing to accept speakers have a certain break-in period since lower frequency drivers may become less stiff over time as a result of their movement. I am however rather sceptical when it comes to amp/cable/cd/dvd/tuner components... I think it has a lot to do with psychology: the tendency to justify spendings.

[thyname]

I can see that the opinion is really divided on this matter. I wonder what the "specialist" in this forum, Andrew Pratt, Aussie Geoff and Lex (and others) think...

[rpryan]

I noticed a differnece with my rdc1072 for a short time(although it sounded sweet right out of the box), but my monitor audio silver series speakers took a long time (about 60hrs). It sounded real to me. I've recently ordered some silver kingcats interconnects and will see if they improve over time.
Bob

[Cracking Oboe]

Hello all,

As always, this is an interesting and controversial topic . It was discussed in a thread last fall... http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=9217. I do believe that most of us will agree that in the initial weeks of owning a new piece of equipment that the sound changes. With some manufacturers the length of time is long, in others very short. Even some equipment manufacturers and dealers will mention long burn-in times associated with some of their products.
I understand about how accommodation (essentially Burn-in) may occur within the neurophysiological / neuropsychological processes of our auditory systems. However, I do not believe that’s what’s occurring in the case of our stereo equipment. If it was our ears burning-in, all equipment would have the same length of time required for burn-in. Additionally, if we did not listen to our equipment for several days (after we initially got 'burnt-in' to the sound), we would have to ‘burn-in’ all over again . Just one more opinion. :

Cracking!

[thyname]

Hello all,

Additionally, if we did not listen to our equipment for several days (after we initially got 'burnt-in' to the sound), we would have to ‘burn-in’ all over again . Just one more opinion. :

Cracking!

Good point Cracking!!!

[PewterTA]

Well, I never believed in break in as much as I do now...

Little bit of a long story...

Background Info:

Here's the situation, I've been demoing the RCD-1072 in my home for about 2 or 3 days nows. This is my friend's unit that he was nice enough to let me borrow. So I've been listening to it with as much music as I can with what time I have available. It sounds great and has been broken in for about 5 months or so, so there should be no break in needed on this unit. Now I came across another CD player from a member here that mentioned how good the Cambridge Audio Azur 640c sounded. So with some work, I got it at a much better price than the RCD-1072 and with a 30 day return policy...so I figured, it couldn't hurt to try it out. So I got it ordered and it arrived yesterday at work, got excited opened it up (dropped the remote and put a ding in it already, ARGH!!!!) and looked at it. Very good looking (got the silver model to match the Rotel silver/black combo) unit.

So anyways, I know everyone says give the CD players some time before they sound good. Even on the box, it says to play the CD player for 36 hours for break in to occur before I really start to enjoy it. So I get it home and tonight is lifting night, so I quickly hook it up (matter of hookup and listening test of 20 to 30 minutes) and throw in the first CD I could find. Turns out to be Eagles Greatest Hits (vol. 2 if I remember correctly) with Hotel California on it. I listen to it and okay, sounds good. Throw it into my DVD player (which is what I have been using) sounds about the same, throw it into the Rotel, huge difference. Much better dynamics, sound stage is much bigger and better defined as the imagining is just a lot better. So I'm like, well okay, I know this stuff needs to break in so I head out to lift and put the a CD on repeat in the Cambridge Audio CD player. I get back about 3 hours later and am doing stuff around the house and continue to let the CA CD player play for about another hour as I'm listening to it, but not critically listening.

So my friend (who I'm borrowing the 1072) comes over and I tell him that I got the Cambridge Audio player. He wants to see/hear it so we go and start doing some listening to it. After a few songs he goes over and grabs a couple CDs that he has (and I have) so we can have both players playing the same CDs. The first couple discs, Eagles again, a Metallica album, Dream Theater CD, Diana Krall CD, Beatles (White album), a Classical Masters disc -- just has some random classical songs, and an Evanescence CD as our test. Nothing fancy to testing as it was already 10:00pm and work comes early for both of us.

So we listening through the discs, picking out a song or two on each (listened to in the order I listed above). Well we both agree that the Rotel unit sounds a lot better, much smoother and open and detailed. At this point I have to admit I was a little sad and irritated that the Cambridge Audio cd player wasn't doing better, it just sounded anemic, very flat and not much in the way of dynamics to it. To me (and we tested it) my Pioneer DVD player (the decent -- yet cheap -- sacd/dvd-a/mp3 unit that's like $140) running through my 1098 sounded just as good if not better. Well it's getting later, about 11:00 now and we agree the Evanescence Disc was the last one we'd try.

Remember we are using both players playing the same discs at roughly the same time, just going back and forth from input CD to input Tuner on the 1098 (since the tuner has the cables and is set to bypass already (as is the CD input)).

Well we listen to about 4 different songs on the disc and both agree the Rotel is still much better. So I decide to play track 4 (My Immortal) again on both players, which we had listened to before, just because I like the song and wanted to hear it again.

True part of my Thinking on the Break In Theory
Now to what has made me change my mind about break in... lol

Well with about 5 to 6 hours on the Cambridge Audio player and listening to track 4, we listened to the rotel for about 30 to 40 seconds, switched over to the CA and listened for about 30 to 40, then back to the Rotel unit, and back to the CA unit. Well the weirdest thing happened and had I not been there to hear it and had it confirmed by my friend, I would think I'm nuts. The second time we switch back to the CA cd player, we are listening for about 15 to 20 seconds then all of the sudden, the soundstage and dynamics just open up like a flood gate!

I'm talking Night and Dday difference here. Before, there was little to no sound stage, it was very flat and all the voices and instruments were very up front no surround information (with only 2ch listening), dynamics were okay but nothing great. Within a split second all the sudden Amy Lee's voice (Lead singer of Evanescence) was right in the room singing to us, the piano completely filled the room. I looked at my friend and said, "Did you just do something?" He was looking at me and goes, "wait, you're hearing that as well?? Did you just hit something on the remote?" I told him I didn't touch anything. But the sound was just sooo much better. I replayed the track and we started listening to it and then switched over to the rotel. What did we here, NO difference at all. We both probably had the most dumb founded looks on our faces... just a matter of 5 minutes earlier there was night and day difference between the Rotel and Cambridge Audio player and now they sound completely identical...

So something had to have "broken in" on the Cambridge Audio and we were listening to it at the point it happened...

I'm still sort of in shock as to what we heard, it was like going from a mono source to a full 7.1 surround sound is the only way to describe the difference in sound. It's also weird that it happened in the matter of a split second between notes even on the song. One piano key strike was just dead, the next one was right there in the room with us. I thought I was going to have to move stuff to fit the grand piano in there! lol.

So, with what little time I have listened to to the Cambridge Audio player, I can say that with 5 to 6 hours of use it's easily as good as the Rotel RCD-1072, and I'm supposed to let 36 hours go by before I do critical listening. If it starts to get much better sounding, it will definitely have the edge to the RCD-1072, and at $200 or so less, I'm really really happy!!!!

So for me, I definitely believe there is 50% human break in and now 50% to equipment break in.

...and I know I'm not nuts and maybe it's just something with this one player...but at least I had a friend there that confirms what I actually heard since he heard it as well.

Needless to say, he's coming back over for more listening tests tonight since I'm letting the CD player play all on repeat while I'm at work. ...and he told me that if the Cambridge Audio player keeps gaining in performance he's going to pick one up for himself.

...I'm just still mad that I dropped the remote at work and dinged it... STUPID STUPID STUPID ME! :M

[ekkoville]

Pewter, that goes to show how important the source in your system can be. Bad source, and the whole thing underperforms. As for the sudden change in sound, I have never heard or even demo'd like that. Curiously, was the CA unit getting warm at all? I think someone above here has said heat will add to the break-in process and I wonder if the unit starting heating up after all that and it helped. Great news on the player, I need a new one at some point and will consider the CA piece.

Erik

[Kens1]

I also have the cambridge 640c cd player and it will get even better. When I first purchased the 640 it sounded better than my $140.00 technics cd player I had been using but not to the point I was happy I spent 4 times as much. After listening to it at the dealer I thought maybe my room/ speakers were not doing it justice.
On the box it recommends 36 hrs. of playing before doing serious listening. The box is right - even after a day of playing it sounded way better. I have had this player about 2 months now and absolutely love it.
I find it more detailed than the 1072 and not as forward in the highs. I listened to the 1072 again when I auditioned speakers for about two hours with my own cd's. I prefer the sound of 640c, but that is just my opinion - both are great cd players although the 604c is about $300.00 cheaper.

[PewterTA]

ekkoville,

Nope the unit never got warm at least to the touch of the outside of the case (I did check that out as I was wondering if that was it as well). Though the temp. inside the unit could have been getting warmer... I'll check it again when I get home from work to see if it's warm (and if it's going to be, it will be, as the shelf above it is about a 1/4" from the top) after 9 hours of constant use. I figured since there was no venting on the unit that this wouldn't (hopefully) cause a problem. I would definitely at least demo the unit if you can to see which you would like better. I'm still a fan of the RCD-1072's looks a little more since it matches everything else, but the 640c fits pretty well. I'll snap a few pics and put them up tonight (hopefully I get a chance).

Kens, that's good news to hear. I agree what what you think about the unit, I can't wait for it to "break in" even more!

[Stevebez]

I find my system sounds different during the day than it does at night ... !!! Even different at one time than it does at others....

If I have a session where I come away saying "wow" ... and I go back for more the next day - I am almost always a little disappointed. Bit like someone saying "go see xyz movie it s the best move ever!" you go in and given your expectation level and taste more often than not will walk away a little disappointed.

This does not say electronics and speakers don't need to have some time to settle - this may be so but the psychology wether imagined or real ... or is it suppose its both ??(but I will stop there on that point) ... is very valid.

clearly it demonstrates to me the effect psychology and perhaps even the weather / temperature / air pressure may have on some stuff ... and your ears!

Anyhow ... just enjoy the music ...

Rgds Steve

[gd]

The pragmatic side of me is insisting that it's strictly psychological.

But the actual experience certainly feels otherwise... whether it's a new component broken in over time... or a large power amp warming up in a half hour or so after having been off.

And my pragmatic side does remind me that, at least for capacitors, operating temperature does affect voltage, which in turn presumably affects nuance in sonics.

In summary, then...... I dunno.

[GregoriusM]

I believe that all 3 things happen.

1) Your speakers break-in with a definitely sonic difference.

2) Your equipment, especially those that generate heat, break in and do have a more slight sonic difference.

3) Yes, you do "learn" to listen to the sound in a different way - sometimes learning to like it better OR sometimes worse. Sometimes you just can't "break in" your ears enough to like what you have, no matter how long a "break in" time you give your speakers, equipment and your ears.

That's when you change speakers, equipment, positioning of speakers in room, or whatever, so that your setup will come within the paramaters of your "ear break in" possibilities.

IMHO.

[Kevin D]

I find my system sounds different during the day than it does at night ... !!! Even different at one time than it does at others....
Rgds Steve

Yeah, after 3-4 beers at night and I lose my critical-ness, the music just seems to open up and speak to me..

Kevin D.

[DrJRapp]

ekkoville,

Though the temp. inside the unit could have been getting warmer... I'll check it again when I get home from work to see if it's warm (and if it's going to be, it will be, as the shelf above it is about a 1/4" from the top) after 9 hours of constant use. I figured since there was no venting on the unit that this wouldn't (hopefully) cause a problem.

Dan

I didn't notice quite so dramatic a change in my CA 640C although it did get better over the first 30 hours or so. Id keep close tabs on that unit for possible latent defect in an IC.

The unit doesn't generate much internal heat. I have my 640A amp sitting right on top of my 640C player and the 640C never gets more than warm.

[PewterTA]

Well after 9 hours of music playing on the CA 640c, I have to say it's definitely opened up.

The unit after 9 hours+ on repeat was barely warm. My "cold" turned off 1098 and 1080 which are in the same half was maybe 3 degrees (F) colder if that.

I will keep that in mind Jerry...and keep an eye on the unit. As of right now, I've listened to it for about an hour and a half and I have to say it sounds amazing, definitely no flatness to the sound, it's very accurate is the only words that come to mind. It's as if everything in the music is in it's place both in image wise and in presence. If something is supposed to be soft and in the background, well it's back there no up front like it was before.

Definitely am liking the unit more and more!!! Even though I've only got maybe 14hrs burned into it and about 3 hours listening.

Here's two pics I took real quick after my friend took back his RCD-1072 tonight...stupid me didn't think to take pictures with them both sitting there (though I didn't really expect him to ask for it back "since I got my player" lol). The RCD-1072 was in place where the RT-1080 is back now (removed it for listening purposes).