2 Centers are Better than ONE!

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  • SQconstable
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 141

    2 Centers are Better than ONE!

    I had just finished putting together a great-sounding cost-effective setup with the RSX-1067 and Behringer Truth B2031P studio monitors (2-way, 1" tweet, 8.75" woofers, dual-slot port design, 4ohm, magnetically shielded - only $160/pr!!). I had ordered 4 pairs of the monitors in hopes of utilizing the 7.1 configuration but seeing that 5.1 is sufficient for now I am just sticking with the 5.1 setup which left me with an extra 3 monitors (DTS locks in on most of my DVD's and not even a matrixed Center Back channel can be simulated, so it's too artificial to worry about until true discrete 7.1 is on the rise). These Behringer Truth passive monitors come in "matched pairs" so it was impossible to just get odd number quantities. Anyhow, while watching movies I noticed how direct the single center channel slightly distracted the soundstaging from the focal point of the visual aspect. My wife noted how the diaglogue was too direct above the picture, and also how it was too centered, even in the width of the picture itself - I'm using a Mits 65" HDTV, so a 1" tweeter working 2-way with even a decently large woofer is too focalized. I decided to use that center monitor's matched pair counterpart as ANOTHER center channel wired in series for 8ohm. I arranged them so that the tweeters would be towards the center of the picture for both monitors. Also, I spaced the speakers so that the woofers on each of the monitors were on the outer edges of the TV...

    this did the trick! Although I had to raise the gain on the center channel +7dB to get the pair calibrated correctly since this was now an 8ohm pair, the whole 5.1 soundstage was soooo much better! Instead of a focal center sounding like it was coming from the upper-mid 1" center of my 65" viewing width, it was as if it were coming from inside the screen and helped smooth out the directness associated with single 2-way center speaker config's.

    I urge anyone to try this, even though you may not be in my same category with an extra speaker from a matched pair. Wire those centers to be evenly arranged across your TV's top panel and the positioning of the dialogue will sound much more realistic.

    There is one thing in the future I do foresee myself further doing to the center channel array, and that would be to add sound focalization (is that a word? BELOW the screen, because even though there is now a wider center source, it's still higher than the middle of the screen. Fortunately most dialogue visually should come from the upper portion of the screen since actors' mouths are in that area, but it's not at the exact top edge of your TV either! Today I will run an RCA splitter from the Center channel pre's of the RSX-1067 to the in's of the TV and adjust the volume on the TV so it's barely there.... that should pull the dialogue just down a tad and center it all. Phase cancellation shouldn't be a big issue but that's mostly bass that gets affected there - mmmhmmm got that bass/treble adjustment on the TV.

    Isn't this somewhat how movie theatres are truly setup? I know I'm hearing sound above and below the widescreen when I do go there and face the smells of popcorn. I suppose ideally, one should have two arrays for center channel configurations - above and below, with the lower array having less volume than the top. I see this as very important because, as HDTV's are becoming more popular, screen sizes (and oh $hit, HUGE projection screens) are also becoming much larger.. it will be important to possibly add a second discrete center channel for the height factor. Four may be overkill but I'm not seeing enough audio engineers mix dialogue evenly between the Left/Right mains and the center. An example of needing that type of mixing/panning would be when an actor walks and talks from the left of the screen to the right... many movies still have the dialogue too centered and it's lazy on their part.

    BTW, those B2031P Behringers sound so good and natural, you'll be amazed at the quality - there has been an "official" review by some audio engineer about the ACTIVE version of these monitors having harsh highs, but I'm telling ya, on the RSX-1067 I had no reason to even touch the equalization yet!
  • Stoney
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 232

    #2
    What about using the TV speakers as an additional center speaker. My tv has an RCA input in the back labled center in. Would there be too much mismatch in drivers/amps?
    Emotiva UPA-700 Amp
    Emotiva UMC 200 pre/pro
    B&W DM605 S2 Mains
    DM602 S2 Surrounds
    DM601 S2 Rear Surrounds
    CC6 S2 Center.
    ASW 1000 Sub

    Comment

    • Dmantis
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Jun 2004
      • 1036

      #3
      I never thought 2 centers are better then one.

      If your center channel is matched to your mains speakers , placed correctly and setup properly, another center shouldn't be needed.

      If your room is to big for your single center I suggest looking one that fits the bill.

      When buing speakers , any speakers for that matter , you have to consider the room your putting them into to help decide if they are the correct ones for that given room. After you decide on which brand you like, you have to find the correct series to fit...

      No 2 centers are better then one in my opnion,

      Dan

      Comment

      • HappyCow
        Junior Member
        • Nov 2004
        • 7

        #4
        I dont think using the TV speakers as an additional center or presence speakers (Yamaha thing) is a good idea since the TV speakers do not produce as good quality sound as your center speaker does. Heck, I dont even have an audio signal in my rgb-scart. It only transfers the picture.

        If one uses a projector and wants the center speaker sound to come from the middle of the screen, I suggest using a screen with small holes in it. That is, it lets the sound from the center speaker go through the screen.

        Comment

        • gianni
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2002
          • 524

          #5
          Hmmm.....2 centers. Will have to try it just for grins -- not that I need it. The more I think about it though, I see one drawback: by placing the two speakers tweeter to tweeter aren't we creating one big M-T-M speaker. My M&K's are T-M-M. This helps reduce lobing. I would think the two speakers end to end would have lobing problems. Yes, there are many M-T-M designs but I'm sure the better ones are designed to minimize lobing. I wonder how the 2 boxes will interact. Of course if you always sit front and center, this may not be that big a deal.

          Comment

          • SQconstable
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2005
            • 141

            #6
            Well I tried the center channel pre-outs on the Rotel directly to the in's on my TV and I have to say that although the quality of those speakers aren't on par with the rest of my system, they GREATLY help lower the image to the appropriate height.

            The issue here was not that my room is too big - it's that the screen is too large to match the traditional positioning of a single center channel speaker. I'm now thinking that a true center channel should be directly behind the screen.. hypothetically!

            The problem I am "seeing" as I mute my TV's new pseudo-center is that the audio is way too high above the picture when watching movies - the height of this screen's top edge is a about 2 feet above the centerpoint of the screen... the axis of the tweeters are even higher. While this may not seem to be an issue with smaller screens, there will always be a height mismatch until RPCRT's can have speakers right behind a perforated screen, and that's not gonna happen..

            Try this folks.. even tho the TV speakers aren't exactly matched in phase, frequency response, and contour, you must realize that the volume level on these TV speakers can be so low that it's only there to make a perceptual "pulling" down on the height. I do notice that the phase isn't perfect but after listening to the realism of a center channel "wall" (rather than a point ontop of the TV), it sounds so much more like the center channel sound of a movie theatre (dunno if some of you think that's bad or not, but I definitely would rather the source appear to come from the center of the center, not above it).

            Take 10 minutes to try this and you'll never go back! Gradually bring up the TV's volume until you hear it move the image down, then maybe even pull the volume back some. Mute it and compare. Makes dialogue seem more realistic!

            Comment

            • SQconstable
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2005
              • 141

              #7
              Originally posted by Dmantis
              I never thought 2 centers are better then one.

              No 2 centers are better then one in my opnion,

              Dan

              Remember, the TV speakers are only at a low volume to pull down the imaging, not to act as dividing the wattage of the center channel with equal volume. Can't knock it until you try it - that being a pseudo-center at LOW volume

              Comment

              • Kevin D
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Oct 2002
                • 4601

                #8
                While I'm glad that you are enjoying it, I'm in agreement that if you feel you need to do all this to get a good center, something else is wrong.

                Most likely when you had just the one center that's not designed to be a center, it's dispersion was not what was needed. Like possibly your speakers have a very focused pattern instead of a horizontal pattern.

                You might also want to look at better position and level setting to your left/right. Your left-center-right combo is what should be giving your center 'wall'.

                But of course we're giving advice and your happy.. That's the most important thing. Enjoy your system and let us know any other cool things you play around with.

                Kevin D.

                Comment

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