My new rotel system doesn't sound good to me!

[JetFlyGuy]

Hi,
I just made a significant investment in HT gear, and I am very unhappy with how it sounds. I use the system for TV (Tivo) and Movies. I have a rotel DVD Player (RDV-1040), Pre/Pro (RSP-1068 ), and Amp (RMB-1075). They are powering B&W 704 Fronts, HTM7 Center, and B&W Sub & Surround. To me the system sounds very "harsh" (I know some people don't like that word!) I have allowed the speakres time to break in, and have adjusted every setting I can think of, and nothing seems to make a difference. I don't know if this is how this equipment is supposed to sound or if I have a problem with it. The sytem I replaced didn't cost 1/10 of what I paid for this stuff, and I liked the old one better Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Josh :cry:

[aud19]

Did you listen to the gear before you bought it?

Could be the room, you may have had "warm" mid-bass boosting gear before that worked well in a "bright" room. Tile/hardwood floors with sparse furniture made of metal and glass etc will produce a "harsh" sound with Rotel and B&W's more neutral sonic characteristics.

Could be your brain/ears being used to the sound of your old equipment and just not getting used to/liking the new sound.

Need more information really to give any help. As always, the best advice is to listen before you buy so this doesn't happen.

[DrJRapp]

Hi,
To me the system sounds very "harsh" (I know some people don't like that word!) I have allowed the speakres time to break in, and have adjusted every setting I can think of, and nothing seems to make a difference.

Give your new Rotel gear 40 to 90 hours to "burn-in" just like you did your speakers and you will be pleasantly surprised at how smooth and natural they will get. I have many criticisms of Rotel, but sound quality isn't one of them.

[DelRay]

Jerry, exactly what I was thinking. When I first got my 1068 the midrange seemed slightly harsh (not as harsh as my old Sony 444es though). I was expecting more of a wow with 2 channel. Since the system is broke in now, all i can say is Wow!
Jetflyguy, give it time, I'm sure you'll be pleased. You can also check into room acoustics. My room was pretty lively, but since adding diy inexpensive panels the sound has greatly improved.

[Azeke]

I concur with Jerry, you must provide burn-in time esp., for the amp. You should play your equipment for 48 hrs straight (if possible), before passing any sonic judgements.

A couple of fundamental questions, have you calibrated your speakers via an spl meter, and set your delays correctly, these elements are crucial before your system can be fine tuned.

Give it some time, your patience will pay off.

Regards,

Azeke

[DrJRapp]

Josh
This is a common situation with many high end audio products. In December I purchased a Cambridge Audio Azur 640A integrated amp for a 2 channel music system in my study library. The owners manual warned: operate system at moderate spl for 30 to 60 hours before attempting any critical listening. At first the CA was very bright (some may say harsh) but over time it became one of the sweetest sounding amps I have ever heard. There is a technical explanation for this phenominon that I won't bore you with.

There is another possibility to consider. What are you using for interconnects? Many inexpensive copper interconnects sound very bright with quality equipment. The accuracy of Rotel gear may bring out the worst in poor quality interconnects. A chain (system) is only as strong (good) as it's weakest link. You may need to upgrade your interconnects to silver. One of our sponsors, CAT Cables makes excellent silver interconnects that may help your problem.

[Andrew Pratt]

Can you describe your room, the placement of the speakers, chairs etc and how you calibrated the system.

[Blazar]

The sound you describe is simply MOSTLY the speakers...

You might try out another line of speakers before doing anything to the rotel system.

The NUMBER ONE impact on major audible differences in sound in today's audio gear will be the speakers. Start there and troubleshoot this problem.

[MoonSpin]

Let the Rotel equipment break-in

I heard harsh with my Rotel when I first got it but give it time to break-in,
once you do, it will be silky smooth with no harshness. Just needs time to break-in is all. Just the nature of high-end equipment, must have a break-in period. Don't worry, you will love the sound of Rotel.

[shadow]

I agree that the problem is likely the speakers which brings up the point again, did you listen before you bought and if so what source and amplification was used?

[Jason R]

I have the same speaker set up and used a 1080 to power the fronts for quite some time, i don't think the problem is speaker related, spend some time fine tuning your room accoustics and give equipment plenty of time to run in and warm up before you listen, switch on 30 minutes before you want to listen, rotel amps are harsh when cold.

Spent a week on my room and some small changes have taken the sound up more levels than i cold have thought for hardly no money.

[Aussie Geoff]

JetFlyGuy,

In my experience the two most likely areas causing the issue are:
1) The B&W 704s which require a long break in period.
2) Your room accoustics.

The B&W 700 and 800 series are renowned for soundign harsh in the trebble and hard in the midrange for 20-50 hours continuous playing - basically until the speaker suspension has softened through movement. Try leaving the system on playing at moderate volumes dueing the day for several days.

Also with a higher fi system like yours, you will be geting a lot more trebble energy in the room than your old low cost system. This can show up issues with room accoustics - especially hard sufaces near the speakers. A commin problem is tiled floors - many people need a rug over the floor near the speakers to absorb some of the reflextions bounced arround the room.

Regards

Geoff

[psych_o_pat]

I also think that it's the speakers... and your ears! I like the laid back sound of B&W, but hate the 'not so subtil' tweeters they use. Even the 800's signature with Mark Levinson's (considered smooth solid-states) can sound a bit harsh sometimes (for me).
B&W make good speakers (there are so many brighter speakers!!), but what is good for some may be not very good for others. If I could only buy B&W speakers, I would match it with Arcam's or tubes. I you can, before buying, listen to music half an hour at a pretty high volume, if your ears doesn't bleed and you still like the sound you may have a good match. Otherwise you buy at your own risks. If you are stuck with them, check on the internet for some tweaks that you could use to tame a bit yours B&Ws. I saw some thread long time ago where some had good results by putting a thin sheet of... toilet paper! under the tweeter's grid. Here's one : http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/twe...ges/16762.html
Check also speakers cables...

Good luck

Pat

[Azeke]

Very interesting information Pat.

Regards,

Azeke

[basementjack]

I hate to say it but the burn in thing just might be real.
I had a used 1065 rotel receiver that sounded just fantastic.
I wanted some of the newer generations features so I traded it back and got a brand new 1056/1075.
Initially it didn't sound as good as I thought it should, but it's broken in slightly now (maybe 15 hours) and it's already sounding fantastic - and room acoustics wise, I'm in a 15x16x8 all drywall room, with carpet, and hardly any furniture to absorb/break up the sound -so I was heading in the room treatment direction - just like many posters have recommended for you, and will still do so, though I listened for an hour at lunch today and it was abosolutely fantastic.

[JetFlyGuy]

I appreciate all of your input. To answer some of your questions: Of course I listened to this stuff before I bought it!!! It sounded fantastic. I have been doing some experiements, and have made some progess. I am still not completely satisfied, but it is getting better. I am going to try to put a larger area rug in the room so that there is no tile directly in front of the speakers. The head honcho at the store where I bought the equipment has offered to come out and listen to it and give me some help, so I will let you know what I come up with. THanks again, Josh

[cmr15]

My gear sounded harsh initially too. I have a 1067 and dynaudio speakers. However, when I turned on "cinema eq", the sound was excellent. That function is burried somewhere in the OSD. I think it is made specifically to deal with the harsh or brash upper registers of some source material/ soundtracks.

Craig

[basementjack]

FYI the cinema EQ can also be turned on/off using the EQ button on the 1050 remote (under the cover)

[Andrew Pratt]

A tile floor is going to really change the sound you hear vs what you'll hear in a carpeted show room. What other furniture do you have in that room?

[JetFlyGuy]

I will upload seom pictures for you guys when I get a chance. Thanks again for your input. I am looking forward to having the AV shop guy come over and listen. I am sure he will have some good input for me; He also has the power to refund my money or swap equipment if necessary.

[alkalay]

JeyFlyGuy,

Your setup sounds great to me...

Looks like your in good hands with your dealer, which is great to hear.

Take the time finding out what exactly sounds bad to you. I can add to what's been said that the Rotels do need a break in but I think it would take even longer for the B&W's.

Good luck and do take the time figuring it all out.
BTW, For me a simple placing the speakers a bit closer to the wall, brought out the real beauty of sound, making it even and whole from bottom up to those delicate tops.

Do let us know when those pics are here and how things are going...

Itai.

[JetFlyGuy]

I have been doing some critial listening, and have come to think the that problem may simply be that I am being overwhelmed by the center channel. I have experiemented with the level trim on the center, and have not found a setting that seems to work for me. I am going to try and move the speakers closer to the wall and see if that makes a difference. I am sorry I don't have the pictures yet, but I just started a new job, and haven't had much time at home! I will upload them tonight, I promise!! Thanks again, guys.

[EAmin]

I have been doing some critial listening, and have come to think the that problem may simply be that I am being overwhelmed by the center channel. I have experiemented with the level trim on the center, and have not found a setting that seems to work for me. I am going to try and move the speakers closer to the wall and see if that makes a difference. I am sorry I don't have the pictures yet, but I just started a new job, and haven't had much time at home! I will upload them tonight, I promise!! Thanks again, guys.

I have the HTM7 too. It can sound a little harsh in the beginning --- I remember saying the same thing. However, it is much smoother nowadays after the break in period which took a good three months. I'm using one of my 1095 channels on my HTM7. I also put it on a Sound Anchor stand that helps tighen the bass/mid-bass. I'm not sure if I noticed as much of an improvement on the center as I did with the 703 stands. Here's a quick picture --- sorry for the poor quality

http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php4?attachmentid=1492

Honestly, I feel this speaker is the weakest link in my system, and am entertaining getting the new HTM3S center in the 800 line which would better match my 703s. But before that, try moving it around like were saying. As they say, the biggest factor in your home theater is your room. And you may want to give it time to break in too, especially since you haven't been using it much.

You have a great system. With the help of this group, I'm sure you will figure it out. Ask for your dealers help too.

Good luck!

[JetFlyGuy]

Here are some pics of my system

[PewterTA]

Nice Pics, set up looks really sweet!

One thing I'm looking at that you might want to change, is the speakers are too clost to the side walls, why not try centering them in their spaces (bring them off the wall). This will definitely make a big difference in the sound.

[Kevin D]

My thoughts..

1: sorry about Voom.. Hopefully they cut you off easy.
2: You're going to fry that 1075 with so little air space around it
3: The left/right are not going to sound good in that position. They are too close to the side and back walls. It seems there's not much room there to do anything, but putting the entire front stage in a nook is going to give you nothing but problems.
4: I can't tell where your sub is, but it appears not close to the main listening area and quite possibly in a different area all together. It would be very difficult to blend it with the mains..

All in all the system 'looks' very nice, but I think you heard it in a store setup for sound and put it in a room setup for appearance.

Kevin D.

[will1066]

Boy, that's a tough one. The nook is a bad spot. Can you move the system against a different wall? You can try moving the left and right speakers out of their corners, making sure they are break and are in front of the imaginary plane of the TV stand/cabinet. You got to move them away from the side and back walls. Then, you might play with the toe-in angle to compensate.

[basementjack]

Jetflyguy, I just sent you an email to your hotmail account.

[Aussie Geoff]

Jetflyguy,

If the floor is shining polished wood (as per apearances) then you should run to buy a large (not thin) rug to put on the floor in front of the speakers - this will help a lot as you have so many reflective surfaces.

As per the other posts - it woudl be great if you could get the speakers and system out of the niche they are in - as they really are too close to the sidewalls (lots of reflections muddying the sound!)

Geoff

[aud19]

Yikes! Really nice looking system but as other have mentioned that nook is about the worst place for it. At the very least move those speakers away from the walls. Also the tile and wood floors are going to reflect sound very badly. That in combination with the funky nook reflections are going to produce really muddy and bright sound.

[alkalay]

Jetflyguy,

Could you upload some more pics to exhibit the whole room???

Itai.

[JetFlyGuy]

I will upload some more pictures tonight. The system needs to stay on the wall that it is on, however moving the speakers toward the listening position is an option, and would get them out of the "nook".

[w6000]

Nice System,
a couple of things that I noticed. Sub might be in the wrong place. My experience is that subs, especially forward firing subs need to be placed facing the listening position. face the fronts strait out, not angled. You need to get some carpet for the room and under the speakers. Maybe even some sound treatments for the ceiling. Try putting the center channel on a low speaker stand in front of the system.

Just my thoughts

Peter

[BlazeMaster]

yea...those towers definitly need room to breath, I'm sure the guy that sold you the speakers will tell you the same after he's seen your set-up. Is there any way you can bring the center channel dow to be more vertically aligned with the towers? From the way it looks, there's just no way you can get a consistent frontstage. It seems like you have a little bit of room on that TV stand, you might wanna consider moving the TV back closer to the wall and put the HTM7 on the stand, i'm sure you'll get a more consistent front stage. THe speakers should also have enough room behind them. Good luck, great looking system, I'm sorry that you're not getting the results that you're after.

[psych_o_pat]

Here another speaker positioning hint that will seems in contradiction to what others proposed (BTW, I agree with them). But it some cases, this configuration can give some excellent results.
I experimented a lot in my dedicated room, I use this configuration for about 2 years and there is no other way I can make it better. Part of this configuration was proposed by a speaker positioning software called 'Melissa' that simulates the behavior of sound waves on a rectangular room (you give the room size, speakers height, listening position and the soft calculates some positioning scenarios). It doesn't tell you exactly where to put the speakers, but it gives you some hints. Sorry, I don't have this tool so don't ask...

1- Move away your main speakers from the front wall (at least 1/4 the distance from your listening room if you have a closed room)
2- Put the left and right speakers very close to the sidewalls (here's the contradiction)
3- Try to have at least the same distance between you and the speakers that the distances between your speakers.
5- Angle them towards you (otherwise you will have too much reflection from the sidewalls)
5- Put some furniture on the sidewalls at the first reflection point (diffusers)
6- Experiment my moving the speakers by ~4 inch increment in all directions.. and take notes about the characteristics of the sounds, what you like, what you dislike. If you enjoy a particular position more than others then move by smaller increments until you finally find the sweet spot.
7- Play with toe-in until you reach a solid center on mono recordings.
8- Optimize your placement by using the out-of-phase method that is explained on all good stereo optimization CDs (your dealer probably have some)
10- But some furniture on yours walls (pictures, paintings)
9- There are a lot of other useful hints but can’t remember all of them…

FYI, my room is 12(front wall) x 20(sidewalls) x 7.5(height) feet. My speaker’s tweeters are 8 feet away from the front wall, less than 15 inches from the side walls. My listening position is about 17 feet away from the front wall. I use some homemade diffusers on the first reflection point of my sidewalls. This way, I have an infinite soundstage, wide and deep. Good bass response. A solid ‘virtual’ center. An no way you could point towards my speakers if you were blind. YMMV.

Wow this one was long!

[Scherr]

You are facing the problem that we all have -- no room is perfect! We do the best we can given the reality of the living space.

I think that you should move the front speakers forward so that the fronts of the speakers are parallel to the edge of the nook. That should allow the speakers to fire forward without as much reflection on the sidewalls.

A subwoofer can be placed anywhere in the room so I think your sub placement is fine as long as your bass response is solid. Placement can affect phase which is difficult to pinpoint. Your sub is corner loaded which is a plus.

In my home theater room, I have a long nook created by the door to the room. I moved my front speakers and HDTV forward so that the front of all three speakers is even with the end of the short wall where the door is. The front right speaker is next to the short wall, but the front of it is parallel to the end of the short wall. The left speaker is several feet from a long (full) wall on the other side. Otherwise, the front right speaker would have been reflecting off the short wall which created the nook. It improved sound greatly.

Personally, I place my center channel on top of the TV and it is not a problem in terms of the soundstage. I have little kids and don't need them playing with the center channel!

Good luck!

Scott

[JetFlyGuy]

Well,
The guy from the shop I bought the equipment from is coming over tomorrow morning. I am pretty excited to get some helpful information. I have a bedroom upstairs that I use as an office, and I have decided that I am willing to give up the office and use that room as a dedicated HT if I can't get the system to work downstairs in the living room. I will let you know what I find out. -Josh

[DanR]

Wonderful set-up. Can't add much more than has already been said. Break-in will help. The nook is definitely a diaster. Did you do any testing of any gear other than Rotel?

[DanR]

Also, there are many, many room treatment devices you can buy to soften the sound and don't look too obvious. A little pricey though.

[Mitchell]

As far as I am concerned the burn-in thing is very real. I really doubted it and now know matter how hard I look I cannot find some of the few negative sound issues I had originally found in my Rotel/B&W 2 channel system.
And I am picky - a real pain in the ass. I almost feel like I should go back and change some of my earlier postings when I asked whether the sound would "open up" or become less shrill. Even a posting I made the other night about my 1072 is actually wrong. I spent a whole evening listening to Rock and could not hear anything disapointing (from the system). Its been 4 months and I listen sparsley so I think it really has come alive. I bet your system does the same.
And I was a doubter.

[JetFlyGuy]

Well guys,
First off, I would like to commend all of you for a very accurate diagnosis of my system. I am impressed that you were able to reach the conclusions that you did using only my postings and a few pictures.
The guy from the stereo shop came over, and gave me some of the same suggestions and input that I received from this forum. His quote to me was "Your problem is easy to fix, all you have to do is move!" This is not what I was hoping to hear, but I agree that the accoustics of my room suck. I am still at a loss as to how the system I used to have could have sounded better to me than this much more expensive one. I do hear some parts of movies (The opening sequence of Top Gun) that sound phenominal, but there are still a lot of other things that continue to sound terrible to me. Now to get to the point. I would like to invest in some panels to absorb refelections in the current configuration, but I am going to be moving to a bigger house within a year or two, so I want them to be something I can take with me. I will have a dedicated room in the new house, and I have decided to spend some busck to make it more accoustically friendly. My last request of you folks is to point me toward some solutions for sound control. Someone from the board emailed me about it, but I accidentaly deleted it. Thanks again for all your help. -Josh

[Andrew Pratt]

For that please start a new thread in either the DIY or Home Theater area's of the board since they really don't have anything to do with Rotel.