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I know that A21's fuses are all cheap ($0.50 each). If I replace it with more expensive ones (Furutech), cost $38 each. Will there be a significant improvement on the sound? What's the logical upside of this upgrade?
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There are a lot of fuses inside an A21, so $38 each is going to add up. If you do it, let us know the results. Logic? I would say no.Jay -
No. But they look nice
IMHO, the expensice fuses (Furutech etc.) only make sense if they're in a critical part of the signal chain, for instance speaker fuses (which usually, if present, are located on the back panel of the speaker, not in the amp). Replacing the mains fuse won't give you any change in sound.
PeterComment
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Originally posted by r100gs
There are 5 fuses in this unit, one outstide (mains) and four inside. So if I replace all of it, it will cost me like 5 x $38 which is crazy! I found the busted one and replace it with a cheap one ($0.10). I can't hear any difference at all (if any)? I'm so sorry, Parasound doesn't use cheap fuse. They use Buss Fuses made in Germany. I replace mine with China made.Comment
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I do think some things can make a difference. But, a fuse I wouldn't think it would change anything greatly. Such a small part of the power chain that I'm guessing it's nearly irrelevant. That being on the basis that the better fuses are really better, which I'm thinking is rather unlikely.-JoeComment
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Thanks for all the input :T . I feel relieved now, I was tempted to do it but a huge part of me saying: "That's insane". Yeah, it looks good but no one can see it anyway. I wonder, why bother producing these expensive replacements where there is no real life effect :roll: .Comment
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Replacing the standard fuses on a Pair of $14,000 Magnepan 20.1 makes a lot of sense! The fuse holders (sockets) on these speakers are gold plated, but for some reason Magnepan only puts in regular non-gold plated fuses... Spending 4*$38 on a pair of $14 k speakers is not unreasonable (even if you don't hear much of a change).Originally posted by Music4Life
Admittedly, I haven't gotten around to making this "upgrade" to my MG20.1s yet. But it *does* make sense here. I think Magnepan should have included gold plated fuses from the start...
As for amps, some people that use these fuses usually go all the way and replace the sockets with gold plated ones (or gold plate the original sockets) before installing the expensive fuses...
It's called hifi-pimping. Some people want the bling :B
PeterComment
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If you are one of those people who bought the $$$ 10AWG Power cords, then why not. What's your bottle neck now? Some even claim that just treating the contacts with pro gold is enough to make a difference.
Some newer amplifier designs have removed most of the fusing in favour of better audio performace. They use non intrucive monitoring techniques to detect fault conditions.BruceComment
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I was not originally going to participate in this thread, knowing how quickly things can go downhill. Why is it so difficult to think that an amplifier's source of power could not affect its sound in some way ? The output stage is really just a valve that controls the flow of electricity from the source of power (the transformer, caps, fuse, power inlet, connectors, power cord, etc). What you hear in your speakers is in theory, that power supply and everything associated with it.
Some of the better transformer manufacturers use OFC wire in winding their product and that's certainly not because they like the extra expense. Manufacturers like Classé, to name one. use certain premium electrolytics in their products' main power supply not because they like the extra cost, but because they result in better sound.
Twenty years ago, I didn't even believe the hype about high-end equipment in the subscription solicitations I received in the mail from magazines, like Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, et al. I used to just toss them in the trash. Back then, if anyone told me that power connectors, wire, fuses, etc. could make a positive difference, I would have laughed their suggestions off as being ridiculous.
I think people should at least try something once instead of making assumptions that this or that tweak could not possibly make a difference. I've tried the fuse thing and had both positive and negative results. I currently have an isoclean in my preamp. I also tried them in my old Classé CD player and my amp and did not like the results. I've also tried cryoed Bussman ceramics ($7.75 from Cryoparts) which I found that I preferred and currently have one in my amp. All male plugs, IEC plugs, and AC receptacles throughout my system are either Furutech or Oyaide. All cabling is OCC silver and copper.
I've also replaced every stock nickel-plated IEC inlet in my equipment with a Furutech, even the one in my Classé amp. The latter involved quite a bit of delicate surgery in a tight working space to accomplish and also made the modification irreversible. The stock inlet had a small power input board mounted on it, with the hot, neutral and ground pins soldered to it. In order to remove the stock inlet, I had to cut the pins where they entered the body, remove the PC board, and unsolder the pieces remaining. Since the Furutech inlet was was not a PC board mount type, I had to fashion a mounting flange out of [UL approved flame retardant] plastic to mimic the stock inlet and attach it with epoxy.
The point of this tale is, I would not go to all that trouble if I thought there would be no positive return for all my work. I am always looking at ways of bringing improvements to my system, and that does not always mean changing components. A little tweak here, a little mod there by itself may not have great impact, but collectively, that's a different story.
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I replaced the Main fuse of my A21 and thought (to my surprise) that the sound was "better"... used the fuse from HiFi Tuning. The overall presentation was more fluid, less congested, less harsh... albeit just a touch. This was not a wow, in your face improvement, but noticeable on my system nonetheless. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The new hifi tuning fuses leave off the gold plating and are said to be silver all the way through. Soon I plan to replace the fuses in my C2, maybe the A23 and most likely not in the A52.
VinceComment
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Really? Huh... I wonder if I should replace all the fuses in my Halo gear then.
(I've already had to replace the fuses in my New Classic gear, but that's a different story)
CHRIS
Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
- PleasantvilleComment
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I have never tired the ‘phile’ grade fuses, nor do I flock like a lemming to worship the prophetic diatribes of so-called ‘expert’ reviewers (;x( Kal being the one and only exception), but I offer this link to the Stereophile site for some views of others who have tried such tweaks.Comment
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The only good reason to replace the power cord is to make them look better. It's all about pimping!Originally posted by NonSense
Granted, if you need to run your power cord 50' you might want to use a #10 cord, but in regular 3' lengths #12 is always good enough...
It's possible that this can make some difference with sensitive signal cables (phono contacts). However, if it does help it probably means that it would be a good idea to replace the contacts. If pro gold is needed, the original contacts are probably contaminated in some way...Originally posted by NonSense
Correct. These "new" techniques started to appear in most consumer products in the early 1980's. I would think ALL amplifiers incorporate them today. A good amplifier does not have fuses in critical locations so replacing a fuse seldom makes any difference. If it does, it's not designed very well IMHO.Originally posted by NonSense
PeterComment
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Because the Halo amps have massive filtering (capacitors). Small power fluctuations before the filtering does not make any difference after filtering.Originally posted by Glen B
The small resistance of a fuse is simply too small to have any practical meaning...
PeterComment
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At the risk of starting a religious war (well, a skirmish anyway) I'd like to say that I've installed my share of tweaks in the system that includes my A21 and in each case I heard improvement. Placebo effect? Self-fullfilling nonsense? Perhaps. I try to go for the affordable but not-too-unbelievable ones. So, Pro Gold on all contacts, Vibrapods under my CD player, Oyaide AC outlet, upgraded power cords (but not the $1000+ kind), etc. No doubt there is a lot of junk in this business and unscrupulous people shilling it but I'm usually willing to spend a few bucks just to see. I've thought about the HiFi Tuning and other aftermarket fuses. Glad to hear someone else tried it first. How hard is it to open up the A21 and get at the internal fuses? And where is the external one?
Mark.Comment
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Very easy. Just open the screws on the top and lift off the cover.Originally posted by LAMark
On the back panel. The typical cheap fuse holder that most gear use.Originally posted by LAMark
Most gear come with $0.25 fuses in $0.25 holders (sockets). I'm questioning the advantage of popping a $30 fuse in a $0.25 socket. Now, if you also replace the socket it's another thing, but then we're already talking major hifi-surgery ... (There's no doubt that the best result will be achieved if the plating of the fuse caps is the same as the plating of the socket. A perfect match is preferred here).
PeterComment
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Peter,
Thanks for the info. Your point about the sockets is well taken. Some people advocate just bridging the connection and doing away with the fuse altogether. I would think that the designers put fuses in for good reason so that's not something I'm comfortable with. And some people swear by Shakthi Stones, Cable Elevators, and the like. Even I have my limits, but I do admit to trying Ultrabit Platinum liquid on my CDs. Seems to have a small but noticeable improvement.
Mark.Comment
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Often the reason for the fuse is to make it possible for the unit to pass certification (UL, CSA, TÜV Rheinland, etc.). They do all sorts of crazy tests, and the fuses may be needed to pass those tests.Originally posted by LAMark
If it's a good reason is up to you to decide. The manufacturers don't have a choice since the units need to be certified to be legally sold in Europe (for instance).
PeterComment
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You are under the misconception that "massive caps" are some kind of holy grail of noise filtering. Large caps are not as effective against high frequency noise. Some tweakers and technicians will put low value film bypass caps across the large filter caps to improve their performance at high frequencies.Originally posted by Peter Nielsen
Check out the following link. If massive filter caps need bypassing with smaller value caps to eliminate "noise and high frequency interference " then it would be reasonable to think that massive caps are not perfect. This must mean that even with their presence, high frequency noise can get through (and end up in the audio circuits).
Also check out this 3-part thread. The author is a professor of EE and audio enthusiast. Note his comments at the beginning of part 2 with respect to power supply filtering.
That may well be, although changes may occur due to heating of the fuse element. There is a lot in audio that cannot be explained by measurements and specifications.Originally posted by Peter Nielsen
Is this an admission that tweaking the fuse/fuseholder might make a positive difference ?Originally posted by Peter Nielsen
Last edited by Glen B; 12 March 2009, 21:32 Thursday.
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Hey guys,
Great thread... Why not just give it a try and see for yourself. One thing in audio is that regardless of science, some things "improve" the sound.
VinceComment
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It depends on what kind of difference you're looking for.Originally posted by Glen BIs this an admission that tweaking the fuse/fuseholder might make a positive difference ?
Can it make a difference? Of course. A cheap fuse in a cheap fuseholder might not make good contact after 20 years. If you put in a properly matched gold fuseholder and gold fuse, it will probably last 100 years without any contact issues...
Remember that most electronics is designed only to last a few years (5-10 years for high end equipment, or typically 6 months - 2 years for consumer electronics).
If you plan to keep an amp for the next 10-20 years, then it makes sense to upgrade things like fuseholders, relays, etc. However, you will often run into the problem that you encounter some "weak" parts that cannot easily be upgraded to the same level as other components you've upgraded (due to space constraints, or the design) and you are still left with a result that is not 100% ideal despite a lot of time and money spent on the endeavour.
PeterComment
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PeterOriginally posted by Peter Nielsen
I would disagree on a few points.
From my experience, it's a rare treat to find a 3' 12AWG stock cable. I'm usually greated with a 5' 14AWG or worse. When mentioning the 10 AWG, I would agree this is over the top for most normal systems. But I was just pointing out, that for those going over the top, why wouldn't you consider a fuse upgrade.
Pro-gold is a contact enhancer which can offer benefit even without contact contamination. If the contacts are contaminated, deox-it does the trick. The higher quality interconnect that you puchase will usually have better machined quality, but the two contact surfaces will still be imperfect. An enhancer should help to increase the conductive surface area and prevent oxidation on the contact area. Only silver oxide is a good conductor. I only mentioned this one as local hi-fi tweeker once told me his story. PCB fuse holders are usually pressure fit. He swore by the benefit of treating all the fuse contact points with a contact enhancer. A fraction of the cost of upgrading all the fuses with high end types.
Regarding the amplifiers. I have seen several and own a couple of good quality pieces of hifi gear which are equipped with AC line fuses. I would agree that is is not optimal, but was probably required in order to receive UL or CE type markings. Up until the latest generation Classe Delta amplifier, Classe still had power rail fuses on their output driver stages. It was 2000+ before their new circuits were introduced. The JC1's also have a line fuse and fuses on it DC voltage rails.BruceComment
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