Out of touch for a week

[Chris D]

Hey, I'm going to go rub elbows with some of the industry bubbas, on the Home Theater Cruise this week. (we're at sea right now!) touch base with you guys soon.

[bigburner]

Keep your elbows well greased Chris.

Nigel.

[Kevin P]

Enjoy the cruise Chris! I wish I could have gone...

[Chris D]

Alright, I am learning a LOT here on the cruise, in addition to having a good time and vacation, of course. Lots of great information going around. Take a look at a general post I made in the thread in another section here about BD and HD-DVD:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=338168#post338168

The way that symposium went, I can see why Parasound and other major manufacturers are not jumping into the HD-DVD and/or BD wars. But if I talk about that information specifically in regards to Parasound, it changes my way of thinking a bit. As many of you know, I've been strongly advocating a desire for Parasound to work towards the goal of having single-digital connectivity (i.e. currently that means HDMI) with upgrading processors with the hardware and software capability to accept and decode ALL sound formats.

However, with what I'm learning this week, it looks like what Parasound could do is "simply" add HDMI connectivity to the C1/C2/7100, or come out with a new model, that would accept LPCM audio over HDMI. Any processing you want to do, such as DPLIIx, would then happen after acceptance of the PCM stream. Then all HD audio decoding could stay within the player, and you'd have much less (although still a lot) to add to the processor. Anthem and others have already done this.

[RandyL999]

Thanks...

Chris...

Great post! Thanks for sharing the info with all of us...

Randy

[nicholtl]

They have internet on the ship??

[Chris D]

Yeah, it was a brand new ship (and the largest ship in the world!!!) so it's pretty high-tech. Internet connection and cellphone coverage, but with cost of course.

I've updated the thread I linked with some more info. I learned a lot, and paid a lot of attention to the new HD formats, HD audio, and HDMI connectivity.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=338855#post338855

HDMI problems in this thread:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=26063

Bringing it back to Parasound specifically, I can again understand more than ever why Parasound and others are hesitant to jump into HDMI, much less the actual formats of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. The ultimate goal still would be for single-cable connectivity for all high-def audio and video, audio decoding in the receiver and/or player. However, it's hard for the industry to agree on a solid standard, much less get manufacturers to implement it well. Forget even trying to get to the level that Parasound demands, where the consumer down the line gets a high-performance, reliable solution.

That being said, I do feel that HDMI 1.1/1.2 is at present, sufficiently reliable and performs well to be added to the C1/C2/7100, or at LEAST a new processor model, to input PCM audio over HDMI to the processor. That way, we could use HD players to decode and output the HD audio on PCM through HDMI.

Right now, our only option is through the 7.1 analogs, which have limitations (like straight pass-through meaning no bass management or ability to add processing like DPLIIx)

[Chris D]

I meant to spell it out in summary, but in case it's not obvious from my post, there:

I strongly feel that it would be prudent to add HDMI PCM audio input capability to the C1/C2/7100 at this point. It's a 99% solution in terms of optimal capabilities, that is available, reliable, and robust now. It would bring Parasound and Parasound users into the HD audio era, and wouldn't have to touch HDMI issues like HD video, HDMI 1.3 (or beyond) etc. Would provide a solution for us to get HD audio for years to come, and as I mentioned in my other posts, this might actually become the standard in the future for HD audio transmission. (even if it doesn't, it still provides a 99% capability solution)

[Chetk]

What about the ability to process DTS-HD MA and DD True HD? An HDMI upgrade for the C1/C2 wouldn't solve that would it?

Basically, they would have to be processed by the player and sent via uncompressed PCM via HDMI 1.2.

No thanks! I'd rather buy a "C3" that is exactly like the C1 with HDMI 1.3 input and DTS-HD MA and DD True HD decoding.

[Chetk]

OK, after readiing your first link post, I have to say that a PCM over HDMI 1.2 solution sounds better than before, but I am still skeptical. Here's why:

• Can HDMI do PCM 7.1 over HDMI 1.2?
• Let's entertain the idea of interactivity audio being added on top of digital lossless audio. Let's just pick one: DTS-HD MA.
  
  Let's say that I was watching/listening to a movie with the DTS-HD MA track. Then, I want to turn on the "in-movie game". The interactivity audio would be like when you press a remote button and audio plays (a la Tivo). In order for this audio to play OVER the current lossless audio, the digital track would have to be converted to analog, the interactive sound laid on top of that and then back to digital to send via PCM. Are you telling me that this digital > analog > addition of analog audio > digital would all be lossless and in real-time?
  
  This is very much similar to the reasoning that Parasound uses for not displaying the C1 GUI in the component video output. There is a loss of quality any time video overlay is used. And since Parasound decided that HD video quality is more important than an on screen display, the only way to see it is on the tiny LCD screen or a separate composite output TV.

[Chris D]

Chet, I had very similar misgivings--see my linked posts about HD audio and HDMI. I've been assured by the industry gurus that yes, HDMI 1.1/1.2 does have the bandwith to carry fully decoded lossless HD audio over PCM. (I'm simply taking their word, although I'm sure we could research the specs)

As for your 2nd question, I'll say up front--I'm not an engineer expert, and like many of us, am still learning how these new technologies work. When HD audio is "decoded" to PCM, it stays digital. As to whether two audio streams, mixed together as in your example of interactivity, have to be done in the analog realm, I'm not sure. However, whether it is or not, if you want to mix audio streams, it needs to be done, and as was pointed out to me last week, usually needs to be done in the player. The demos that I personally have seen so far have been real-time.

Now, you raise a minor side issue--if you're mixing two audio streams, what about the quality of those? For me, when you do that, you're pretty much disregarding quality. Are you really trying to listen to the clarity of the director's commentary, the crisp sharpness of his voice, while hearing the main audio track at 25% in the background? Two purposes--if you want the full resolution and clarity of an audio track, (main or secondary) you'll listen to it by itself without noise. If you want to hear a track with another playing in the background, you're focused on receiving the information in those two tracks, not doing critical evaluation.

[Chetk]

Chris. on the side issue, I want the audio to be exactly like the source every time. :P

[mitch57]

Am I missing something here? All this talk about passing audio via HDMI from the player to the receiver but not one mention of what happens to the video stream. With only one HDMI output connection on the Toshiba HD-XA2 where is the video going to go? Through the receiver/processor? If so, that means more degradation of the video signal before it gets to the display.

Unless the player manufactures start making players with at least two HDMI outputs (one for audio and one for video) you will have to pass both the audio and the video through the one existing HDMI port. While I understand that this is in fact the purpose of the HDMI specification there's going to be a price to pay when passing a 1080p signal through the receiver/processor on the way to the display unless that receiver/processor has a high end scaler/deinterlacer built in to it. I believe the only current processor that does that is the Anthem AVM 50 and Anthem Statement D2.

Chris, did they talk about this issue on the cruise? Can someone educate me on this?

[Chris D]

mitch, you're absolutely right, that by progressing to a single cable connection, you need to go through the receiver/processor to at least "drop off" the audio signal if not for switching or any scaling/processing that the unit might be designed to do.

Now, we are talking about a digital connection, not analog, so you're not going to get the kind of signal loss or distortion that you would if you were adding extra connections in analog. So I personally don't really see a big detraction in passing a signal through a receiver/processor, unless it just does a CRAP job of passing the video signal through.

Some processors may do things like you mention, scaling or deinterlacing, but I think most people that are looking for those functions will buy an external video processor if their video source didn't perform any of those functions. I think most receivers/processors that we've seen so far, and will continue to see, will simple do a straight pass-through of the HDMI video signal.

As to whether the industry is concerned about any degradation to the video signal by going through a receiver/processor, I haven't seen any indication.

[mitch57]

As to whether the industry is concerned about any degradation to the video signal by going through a receiver/processor, I haven't seen any indication.

That in itself is the million dollar question. Will it degrade the signal when it's passed through the receiver/processor and has there been any tests to prove or disprove that concern?

[Chetk]

Why would the signal get degraded? They are 1's and 0's. They will be the same 1's and 0's when they get to the TV as they were when they left the player. Unless the receiver does some conversion from digital to analog back to digital (and what would be the point of that?)

[Peter Nielsen]

Why would the signal get degraded? They are 1's and 0's. They will be the same 1's and 0's when they get to the TV as they were when they left the player. Unless the receiver does some conversion from digital to analog back to digital (and what would be the point of that?)

It may not be that trivial... The signal could be passed digitally all the way, but still may be "degraded" ...or it could even be "improved"!

For instance, the processor could cache the digital data and retransmit the data using a new clock. The new clock could be more or less precise than the original. The whole process might cause jitter...

Peter

[Alaric]

Why would the signal get degraded? They are 1's and 0's. They will be the same 1's and 0's when they get to the TV as they were when they left the player. Unless the receiver does some conversion from digital to analog back to digital (and what would be the point of that?)

I would think the same reasons $59 universal players don't quite measure up to better , more expensive CD players. :W

[mitch57]

Here's another issue that many of you may not be aware of. There are numerous receivers/processors that have HDMI inputs but most of them will only pass/switch the video input and not the audio. I've been looking for a good processor that will pass both the Video and audio through the HDMI inputs and so far it looks like only the anthem processors will pass the audio as well as the video through HDMI. There may be others but I haven't found them yet.

Anyone know of any other processors (not receivers) that will do audio through the HDMI inputs?

[Chris D]

Mitch, I take it that you're wanting to pass HDMI audio all the way to your TV, to be played?

[mitch57]

Mitch, I take it that you're wanting to pass HDMI audio all the way to your TV, to be played?

No. I want HDMI video to the TV but I want audio to the processor through the HDMI port. You see, I listen to DVD-A/SACDs almost exclusively on my Integra universal player through the 6 analog outputs on the player to the inputs on my current receiver (Denon 3805). I'm already in the market for a dedicated processor and I'm considering taking the plunge into HD DVD as well.

Unfortunately, since I'm already using the 6 analog connections I can't pass the new lossless HD audio formats from the player to the processor using those connections. So that leaves only one other choice. HDMI. But... since most of the processors I've seen only accept HDMI video and not HDMI audio I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. It's not worth it to me to have to switch cables back and forth between the HD DVD player and the integra just to get the HD audio from the HD DVD player. Both Arcam and audio control have HDMI but their manuals state specifically that they will only accept an HDMI video signal and not audio. From what I've researched so far, only the Anthem processors will accept an audio signal through the HDMI port. But they are at the high end of my price range.

[Lex]

For instance, the processor could cache the digital data and retransmit the data using a new clock. The new clock could be more or less precise than the original. The whole process might cause jitter...

I am getting jittery just drinking coffee and reading this thread...

Interesting discussion guys. Thanks Chris for all the well thought out information, you brought a lot to the table from the cruise.

Doug

[Chris D]

Ah, Mitch, I think I get it--you want the receiver/processor to RECEIVE the HDMI audio, not necessarily switch and pass it through to the HDMI output, correct? Yes, we're seeing these products starting to arrive. If you're specifically talking about HDMI 1.3, and the reception of HD HDMI audio beyond PCM, this summer and fall we are going to see lots of products released. Denon, Onkyo, Sherwood Newcastle, and Pioneer come to mind offhand.

(sorry, I've gotten off-topic in this thread, since it's not necessarily Parasound-specific... there's lots of good info about HDMI, HD audio, and others elsewhere here in the forum. For those who just stop by here in Club Parasound, go check out the A/V Chalet, Home Theater, and Audio Hideout subforums here for more good info)

[mitch57]

Chris, Yes, you partly have it correct. But take the receiver out of the equation all together. I'm looking for a dedicated seperate processor, not a receiver. So, again, it looks like even in the distant future (before this fall) I will only be able to choose the Anthem if I want the processor to "Process" the HDMI audio signal from the HD DVD player.

This is the story of my life... Being in the IT support industry it seems like it's always the same story with technology... We just can't quite get there from here.... and when and if we do... BEHOLD!!! It's time to change again before we have even grasped what's already on our plates!

[mitch57]

I just heard today from a friend who is a custom installer that the audio passed through HDMI is quite noisy and full of jitter. Which in turns means the audio is going to be bad as compared to passing it through an analog connection.

When is this industry going to get it together and stop releasing technologies that are rot with problems?

I'm ready to upgrade from a receiver to a dedicated processor but the industry isn't ready for me. Oh... Woe is me... :cry:

[Peter Nielsen]

I just heard today from a friend who is a custom installer that the audio passed through HDMI is quite noisy and full of jitter.

But... ehm... WHAT audio? The HDMI format supports *several* types of audio streams. I doubt they're all bad....

Maybe 5.1 through HDMI will never be 100% perfect and jitter free, but how about the 2ch SACD bit stream supported in HDMI v1.2? That should be half-decent, no?

Peter