JC 1 and Magnepan 20.1

[Jesse111]

Just curious. Any first hand experiences with the JC 1 and Maggie 20.1's?

I'm a huge Mac fan. But the JC 1 may possibly be better suited for Maggies. I have no reason to think that other than Magnepan suggests direct coupled type designed amps for the 20.1. Mac is not. However, Mac may indeed be an excellent combo. But the JC 1 looks very intreresting indeed. I've also considered Bryston 7B SST.

Thanks fellas.

[Chris D]

Yyyyuuuup. I'm sure it's a matter of a few hours before Peter Nielsen chimes in here.

If I had the $$$, I'd be going for the JC1 and Maggies without a doubt.

[Peter Nielsen]

Just curious. Any first hand experiences with the JC 1 and Maggie 20.1's?

Yep. I have been using my 20.1s both with one and two pairs of JC1s.

One pair of JC1s is just about PERFECT for driving the 20.1s with their external crossovers. The power is extremely well balanced. The JC1 can produce all the power they need, to the point that the 20.1s bottom out before the amp clips.

However, know your Maggies. They are really made for bi-amping with an active crossover (which means you'll be using 4 channels of amplification and don't use the passive crossover box at all).

When bi-amping, the JC1 is a bit overkill, to keep things real. (When bi-amping, the 20.1s will only need half the power per channel). You may face the same dilemma as I did. The heat generated by four JC-1s made the AC run very frequently (or all the time in the hottest months). The noise of the air conditioner spoiled the awsome JC1 experience. (I switched to digital amps and now I'm bi-amping ALL my Maggies).

If you're a Mac fan, I see no reason not to stick with them! Get 4 channels of Mac amplification and a Bryston 10B crossover. Dump the external Maggie XOs. They're degrading your signal anyway. If you get amps that produce 400W in 4 ohms, you're all set. Anyting more is overkill, especially on the high range. You could probably do well with less than 400W on the highs. Mixing amps is also possible. I've read about a setup that used a Krell stereo amp on the low end and a Threshold stereo amp (less powerful than the Krell) for the high end...

The JC1 wins over the Bryston 7B. No contest, IMHO. If you want to burn money, look at the Classe M400 instead.

Peter

[Jesse111]

After enormous effort spent researching for the past few weeks. And after talking with Peter, a pair of JC1's are on the way. The reviewers across the globe on this amp are quite convincing and consistant in there opinions. After reading John Curl's interview, www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf as well as many other sources of information, it just seems that the JC1 is certainly worth a try. The slew rate, current capability and class A up to 25 watts are some very attractive specs to me.

[Peter Nielsen]

Great deal!!! :T :T :T

If you ever want to take it to the next level, active bi-amping is the way. No single amps will make anything better IMHO. No other amp can make it better alone than the JC-1...

FWIW, make sure not to use speaker cables in excess of 1 meter (3'). Instead, make use of the balanced XLR and place the amp next to the speaker. You can run 50' balanced with regular low cost cables (e.g. Canare Quad) without any degradation...

For long speaker runs (>3') get prepared to DIY or spend big bucks on Kimber or Nordost bi-wiring with 8 AWG (10mm^2), or single-wiring with 6 AWG (14mm^2)...

Bi-wiring with the Kimber Monocle XL is the way to go if you need a longer run and cannot place the JC-1 next to the speaker. If you can afford high-end Nordost e.g. Valhalla, that is ideal, but Kimber is the economical choice, unless you do the cables yourself... And, if you DIY, make sure that you use WBT connectors.

Peter

P.S. A 10' pair of Valhalla costs more than a JC-1, so take my advice and place the JC-1 next to the speaker :B :T

[Chris D]

Jesse: :T and a :banana: for the new toys!

Another thing that would take it to the next level is to pick up a new JC2 stereo pre-amp that is about to be released. That thing is going to be as high-end as you can get.

[Jesse111]

Jesse: :T and a :banana: for the new toys!

Another thing that would take it to the next level is to pick up a new JC2 stereo pre-amp that is about to be released. That thing is going to be as high-end as you can get.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm sure it will be a quality peice. However, I am pure 2 channel and my source unit is the McIntosh MCD/MDA 1000. The MDA has volume attenuation built in. I connect directly from source to amps via XLR without the use of a preamp. I suppose I'm a bit of a purist in that way.

Great deal!!! :T :T :T
If you ever want to take it to the next level, active bi-amping is the way. No single amps will make anything better IMHO. No other amp can make it better alone than the JC-1...

Yep, biamping is the next logical step. When the funds become available I'll be there.

FWIW, make sure not to use speaker cables in excess of 1 meter (3').

Bi-wiring with the Kimber Monocle XL is the way to go if you need a longer run and cannot place the JC-1 next to the speaker. If you can afford high-end Nordost e.g. Valhalla, that is ideal, but Kimber is the economical choice, unless you do the cables yourself... And, if you DIY, make sure that you use WBT connectors.

Thanks for the advice. My speaker cables are 2 meters in length and I am biwired. While I do believe in speaker length issues, I actually happen to sit in the audioholics camp on cable design issues. http://www.audioholics.com/education...cts-and-cables
But I certainly admit this is my opinion and respect anyone who sees it differently.

Peter

P.S. A 10' pair of Valhalla costs more than a JC-1, so take my advice and place the JC-1 next to the speaker :B :T

Difinately!

Thanks for the support guys. I'm really looking forward to this. I'll keep you posted on the results.

[blownrx7]

Amp alternative - just an option to consider

I tried the JC-1's and was very impressed but I was not so impressed that I was willing to lay out that much cash AND that much "real estate" to accomodate them.
In my trials, I also tried a pair of Aragon Palladium 1K's (same as the Palladium II just different cosmetics) and they were just as good and in some respects better in my application - they were being fed by a Simaudio P5 and driving a pair of Von Schweikert VR4.5's (very efficient so they did not truly test the current capabilities of either) That being said, the 1K's are used by some to drive Apogee's which are notorious for 1-2 ohm impedances.

Which was better? In my application, I ended up going to a single stereo amp (Simaudio W5) because I was driving an easy load and was not getting a significant improvement with the monoblocks. (I am going to try biamping but with a pair of W5's (not 4 monoblocks :W ).

Considerations:
The Parasound offers more versatility with the rca or xlr input and 12v trigger(s) and can be bought new with warranty.
The Aragon offers only XLR or RCA input and no 12v triggers but the price is HALF of the JC-1's (used vs used market). Yes, the Aragons are discontinued but they are VERY durable and Klipsch still supports them.

I still have the Palladium 1K's because they were so good that I want to find SOMETHING to use them for :drool:

[Peter Nielsen]

Thanks for the advice. My speaker cables are 2 meters in length and I am biwired. While I do believe in speaker length issues, I actually happen to sit in the audioholics camp on cable design issues.

That's why I suggested DIY (do it yourself). All my cables are DIY. (Generic brand 8 gauge stranded OFC cable with WBT-645 speaker connectors).

At 4 ohms and 800W we're talking about POWER. You need THICK cables, or some of the power will be lost in the cable. Just think about it: Even a 0.04 ohm resistance in the cable will mean that 1% of the power is lost in the cable. A 0.4 ohm cable will lose 10% of the power! (In practice, this might not make much of a difference since a 50% power loss only results in a 3dB loss in sound strength, but that's another story).

That's why I'm suggesting a long run with balanced XLR and as short speaker cables as possible.

Same goes for the speaker connectors. The contact resistance need to be kept low. I'd rather use no connector than a bad connector. Bare wires are fine, but I recommend to re-strip them at least every 6 months to remove the oxidated part...

Peter

[Jesse111]

I tried the JC-1's and was very impressed but I was not so impressed that I was willing to lay out that much cash AND that much "real estate" to accomodate them.
In my trials, I also tried a pair of Aragon Palladium 1K's (same as the Palladium II just different cosmetics) and they were just as good and in some respects better in my application - they were being fed by a Simaudio P5 and driving a pair of Von Schweikert VR4.5's

I have had several hours of experience with Sim gear as well as Von Schweikert VR4 SR. I owned the Moon P8 and Andromeda CD player and even used them with the 20.1's.

Some of the most stunning gear I've ever owned. In the end however, Sim gear had a more analytical sound to my ears. If the music was on the CD, the Sim gear made sure you heard it. I had tremendous respect for Simaudio but I was never able to truly love those componants. The VR4 SR's were along the same lines. Putting that gear together in my opinion would offer an amazingly detailed and accurate sound. So I think you and I may have a bit different preference in sound. Simaudio gear is some of the best made equipment I have ever seen or owned and is hailed by thousands the world over. I lean towards the McIntosh side of the world. A tad warmer, less resolute. I'm hoping the JC-1's give me what Mac did with just a hint more of what Simaudio does. If so, I'll be in the zone. We'll see.

[Jesse111]

That's why I suggested DIY (do it yourself). All my cables are DIY. (Generic brand 8 gauge stranded OFC cable with WBT-645 speaker connectors).
Peter

Sounds good to me Peter. I'm not much of a DIY'r so I purchased these based on Audioholics scientifically measured specs. http://www.cobaltcable.com/speaker-cable-single.htm

Got them biwired so guage should not be an issure for 2 meters. I personally can't hear one bit of difference biwiring, in and of itself, but with high current apps like the JC-1 I wanted to make sure and avoid the very issues you mentioned as regards resistance and power loss. Besides, it looks cool. :T

Yes, from transport to DAC is 110 ohm XLR one meter. From DAC to amps about 4 meters of XLR. I use Silversonic Air Matrix for all XLR cables, not because of any particular reason other than I think they are built very well and relatively inexpensive. I'm not handy with DIY'ing so I did not want to create termination issues especially with the XLR ohm consistancy.

[blownrx7]

In the end however, Sim gear had a more analytical sound to my ears. If the music was on the CD, the Sim gear made sure you heard it.

I tend to agree with you to some extent. I really do like the detail - hearing every note, but when I turn it loose for some head-banging - everyhting comes together - bass slam, smooth highs without getting grainy or grating on the ears. That is probably why I am so enamored with the Aragon. It adds the right amount of warmth to my system without muddying up the sound.
BTW, just to give you an idea we are not that far apart in sound preferences, my bedroom system is a Cayin tube integrated feeding a pair of Revel M-20's. The Cayin is a bit underpowered for the Revel's if it was a big room and if ever went loud but in our smallish bedroom it never gets very loud and is perfect.

As far as your cables, I like your approach! I am in the Audioholics camp as well.

[Peter Nielsen]

Got them biwired so guage should not be an issure for 2 meters. I personally can't hear one bit of difference biwiring, in and of itself, but with high current apps like the JC-1 I wanted to make sure and avoid the very issues you mentioned as regards resistance and power loss. Besides, it looks cool. :T

Yeah, the advantage of biwiring is minimal, especially when thick cable is used.

What really looks cool is when you bi-amp and get to take off the ugly XO boxes. Then you just have the flat speaker and nothing that sticks out. Contrary to biwirng, biamping has the great advantage that two smaller (and possibly less expensive) amps can be used. Note that this is only true for Maggies that have the unique feature of requiring roughly the same power for lows and highs. Most other speakers require more power for the low range and less power for the high range.

Peter

[Jesse111]

Yeah, the advantage of biwiring is minimal, especially when thick cable is used.

What really looks cool is when you bi-amp and get to take off the ugly XO boxes. Then you just have the flat speaker and nothing that sticks out. Contrary to biwirng, biamping has the great advantage that two smaller (and possibly less expensive) amps can be used. Note that this is only true for Maggies that have the unique feature of requiring roughly the same power for lows and highs. Most other speakers require more power for the low range and less power for the high range.

Peter

I'm looking forward to the day I bi-amp. Of course the amps will end up being all JC-1's but hey, like Steven Tyler from Aerosmith once said: "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing".

The fact the Maggies share the power much more equally between drivers sections just begs for biamping. :T

[Peter Nielsen]

I'm looking forward to the day I bi-amp. Of course the amps will end up being all JC-1's but hey, like Steven Tyler from Aerosmith once said: "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing".

That's what I thought too, until I realized that I no longer could hear the music because of the neverending noise from the air conditioning...

Much happier with digital amps. No heat. No AC noise...

Peter

[Jesse111]

Obviously you are happy with your setup. But, as regards the perfromance aspect, how would you compare your new amps with the JC-1? Is tact digital Class D?

[Peter Nielsen]

Obviously you are happy with your setup. But, as regards the perfromance aspect, how would you compare your new amps with the JC-1? Is tact digital Class D?

Yes, TacT amps are Class D. However, in contrast to other digital offerings, the TacT amps are "pure digital". The power amplifiers only have S/PDIF and AES/EBU inputs (and a clock input, of course). There is no analog input. This means that the signal is kept in the digital domain all the way from the CD/DVD to the end stage of the power amp. Really, the power amp in itself is the D/A converter. (Some people prefer to call this type of amplifier "Power DAC").

Another thing that is unique with TacT is that the power amplifier controls the volume. The digital signal is always input to the power amp at 100% amplitude (full strength). What happens in practice, is that the volume is controlled by varying the voltage of the output rails. An ingenious solution that makes for an extremely quiet amp with extremely low background noise. Owners of efficient speakers got to love this.

The preamp/controller of course has A/D converters for when you want to use those legacy analog devices like turntables, etc.

Comparing the TacT Boz 216/2200 to the Parasound JC-1 is difficult due to the completely different nature of the two products. One is purely digital, the other one is purely analog. One requires digital input, the other analog input...

One Boz 2200 module is 2x400W in 4ohms. Obviously, the JC-1 with its 800W is much more powerful and can't even be compared to a single channel of the Boz 2200. When it comes to the power hungry Maggies, it is necessary to bi-amp in order to use the Boz. However, Boz really excels here thanks to the builtin digital crossovers.

One thing that can be said for sure is that the JC-1 is a good buy. The second hand value is high. A pair of JC-1 + (J)C-2 retails for $11k. A Boz 216/2200 (4ch) + TCS retails for exactly double that amount...

When thinking about it, an excellent bi-amping combination might be to drive the MG20.1 with a pair of JC-1s for the highs and a pair of B&O ASP1000-based Class-D amps for the lows (e.g. a pair of Bel Canto Ref 1000s or a PS Audio GCA500). I don't think I have read a single review that critizised the ASP1000 low end. Most negative criticism is usually for the slightly rolled off high end, which would mean nothing in a bi-amped config that uses the ASP1000 for the low end only. This might be a great route to take in order to avoid potential heat issues.

Peter

[Jesse111]

Let me start by saying Class D is not a dirty word to me. I have finally reached the point of audio maturaty to free myself from the power of the reviewer opinion and phsyco-acoustic snake oil in the industry. My ears tell me what sounds right.

I would imagine your system is supurb. I enjoyed your response to my question explaining the differences between amp systems. Very informative. Since everything in audio is preference by nature, there is no reason to elevate one piece of gear over the other. It's simply a matter of different not necessarily better :T .

The point ones came yesterday. I've had them before so while I was putting them together it was like going home again. Seeing them standing tall made me feel like a proud father. Right now I have them powered by 100 watts of pure Yamaha $300 reciever quality :rofl:. I can just imagine the day that this Yamaha came off the assembly line. He never thought he'd be connected to a 15K source unit and a pair of Maggie 20.1's 8O .

But it doesn't sound half bad considering. However, the JC's should be hear in about a week. One good thing about it, this way I'll surely be able to appreciate it when the JC's get here.

[Chris D]

Let me start by saying Class D is not a dirty word to me.

Just as long as "Chris D" isn't a dirty word either.

That's really, really funny about the Yamaha receiver and the Maggies. Definitely not a combo designed for each other. I can't wait to hear about your opinions when you get the JC-1's.

This is the ***2nd*** time you've owned Maggie 20.1's? 8O Holy crap! If I ever own 20.1's, I'm never getting rid of them. If for any reason you ever move on from the Maggies or JC-1's in the future, let me know, and I might buy them for a reasonable price!

(that's pretty sick, hitting a dude up to sell his stuff before he even owns it)

[Peter Nielsen]

The point ones came yesterday. I've had them before so while I was putting them together it was like going home again.

What did you use in between? Have you auditioned the Wilson Watt/Puppies? If I had to sell my MG20.1s and pick something else, I would want to try a pair of Watt/Puppies or maybe a pair of Soundlab M-1s

Unfortuantely you usually take a big hit when selling Maggies. The 20.1 retails for $12k+tax and discounts simply do not exist. When selling them, you probably lose close to $3k+tax... (Compare this to the JC-1 that can be sold with only a few hundred dollar loss).

Chris, for the ultimate speaker, check out the Wilson Alexandria. At $135k it is unfortunately a little too pricey...

Peter

[Jesse111]

Good questions fellas. So, here comes the answer because I know it's a curious marry-go-round of gear I went on.

Just as long as "Chris D" isn't a dirty word either.

That's really, really funny about the Yamaha receiver and the Maggies. Definitely not a combo designed for each other. I can't wait to hear about your opinions when you get the JC-1's.

This is the ***2nd*** time you've owned Maggie 20.1's? 8O Holy crap! If I ever own 20.1's, I'm never getting rid of them. If for any reason you ever move on from the Maggies or JC-1's in the future, let me know, and I might buy them for a reasonable price!

(that's pretty sick, hitting a dude up to sell his stuff before he even owns it)

Chris D is definately not a dirty word. :rofl: I have actually created a bit of a following as regards selling used gear. I've been through so much high end gear that I'm actually on the "favorite sellers" list of a few folks on Ebay. Everything from Sunfire to Simaudio gear. So, you're definately not sick. Just looking for a good deal and no one can blame you for that my friend.

What did you use in between? Have you auditioned the Wilson Watt/Puppies? If I had to sell my MG20.1s and pick something else, I would want to try a pair of Watt/Puppies or maybe a pair of Soundlab M-1s

Unfortuantely you usually take a big hit when selling Maggies. The 20.1 retails for $12k+tax and discounts simply do not exist. When selling them, you probably lose close to $3k+tax... (Compare this to the JC-1 that can be sold with only a few hundred dollar loss).

Chris, for the ultimate speaker, check out the Wilson Alexandria. At $135k it is unfortunately a little too pricey...

Peter

I've been using the B&W 800D since I sold my first 20.1's. It is by far the best cone & dome speaker I've heard. The 800D with the Mac gear was so analog and smooth it was simply breathtaking. I sold the 800D's for financial reasons and the buyer made me a very good offer on my Mac 501's that he saw in the picture with the 800D's on Ebay. I got the B&W's for a very good price. Far below what most folks pay for them. In turn, I'm actually able to aquire the 20.1's and the JC-1's at a significant discount from an authorized dealer. You know what they say, it's not what you know but who you know. Anyway, I always new the only other speaker I'd ever consider was the 20.1's. After living with the 800D's for several months I realised that the lifelike soundstage of the Maggies just can not be produced by even the best cone & domes. The bass of the 20.1 is so accurate it's astonishing. So, I must say while I prefered the 800D at first over the Maggies, I now prefer the 20.1 over the 800D with a more experienced assuredness. When I got them hooked up even with the Yamaha receiver (which is 300 w/per channel by the way) it became instantly apparent I had truly come home to stay. I was able to get back to where I want to be as well as help myself out financially.

Before purchasing my first pair of 20.1's I had audtioned the Watt Puppy 7's. The WOW factor of the Wilson will grab you by the ears and amaze you. The bass is incredible. However, to my ears in a side by side A/B, the Magnepan 20.1 simply blew the Wilson completely out of the audio water. After only about 45 minutes the Wilson began to show its weakness to me. While the Wilson commands enormous respectability, I could not enjoy the musicality. They were to sharp on the high end and fatigue set in. Accurate and detailed but no warmth to back it up was my impression of the Watt Puppy 7. I found my jaws tight trying to endure them. Even at low volume they simply did not engage me emotionally with the music. From the first moment I heard the 20.1 I was mesmerized. I sold them looking for greener pastures. I realize now, I'm in the greenest pasture there is. This pair of 20.1's will stay with me. I can truly say, " I love my speakers". Nothing offers the lifelike size completley from left speaker to right speaker like the Maggies. In fact, the song Filth Pig of the live Ministry CD has a left and right sound effect with a synth and a guitar where the guitar is low on the stage and the synth is high on the stage. I've never heard anything but the Maggies expose the imaging and the soundstage of that performance with such visual accuracy. Nothing even close.

Long live the 20.1

[REOFan]

That's What I Like

A guy who knows what he likes, has done a few comparisons, and sticks with the speakers he loves. Bravo Jesse111! Funny, the Wilson's have never intrigued me. I have heard the Sound Labs, and liked them (though they were a bit imposing). Ultimately we have to live with a loudspeaker we like--if not love--for its looks and performance. I admire your conviction. Congrats on the deal for the 20.1s and the JC-1s.

[Peter Nielsen]

I had audtioned the Watt Puppy 7's. The WOW factor of the Wilson will grab you by the ears and amaze you. The bass is incredible. However, to my ears in a side by side A/B, the Magnepan 20.1 simply blew the Wilson completely out of the audio water. After only about 45 minutes the Wilson began to show its weakness to me.

Thanks! VERY good info. Actually, that doesn't surprise me. You're right in that it's probably the bass of the Wilson that gives the WOW factor...

I tried to enhance the bass of my MG20.1s with a pair of Martin Logan Descent subwoofers... Unfortunately, this didn't work out well due to several integration issues. ML can't be blamed; Powered subs like the Descent are made for movies, not music. (The Descent is awesome for the LFE channel, so I'm going to keep them or at least one of them for the LFE sound).

Next, I'm going to pick up a pair of Lyngdorf W210 corner load woofers. They are made for music and will hopefully integrate much better with the MG20.1s and give the result that I'm looking for. They will also integrate much more seamlessly into my system and form an active tri-amped configuration with the MG20.1 and three Boz 2200 modules.

Peter

[Jesse111]

I've done extensive subwoofer testing for a few years. To make a long story short, I found (to my ears) that corner loading did not perform musically under any conditions. The time phase alignment could not be established. My subs are about one third of the way in to the room up the side walls from the front wall. I am also a firm believer in dual subs. Lots of debate on this one. If the full range speakers are playing it is very difficult, perhaps even impossible to locate a sub in the room especially if its crossed over below 45hz which is where mine were. However, with the mains turned off, I can pinpoint a sub easily. In the long run I discovered that dual subs with proper placement added to the depth of the soundstage as well as enhancing the overall musicality of the system. For me using just one sub tended to be more irritating than musical.

I finally settled on the Velodyne DD 10's for my system. Small and accurate. I was able to integrate them with the 800D's to the point of complete invisibility. You would not know they were there if you couldn't see them. It was magnificent. I found the software control incredibly helpful and in fact crucial for the surgical performance of sub bass for music. I tried the DD18's thinking bigger was better. However, that is not the case. Too much air movement. Too slow for anything but a gymnasium size room IMHO. Check out my short review here; http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speak...7_2741crx.aspx

When the JC-1's get here, I'll share my opinion of the DD 10's and 20.1's. However, the bass is so magnificent with the 20.1 I may end up selling the subs. Chris D... you listening? :W

[Peter Nielsen]

The time phase alignment could not be established.

Yes, room correction with time and phase alignment is a must when trying to pair two different speakers. The TacT TCS that I'm using will do all that...

You're right about the subs. Even in movies, I found one sub to be irritating. Two subs make a big difference. Four would be ideal...

Peter

[Chris D]

When the JC-1's get here, I'll share my opinion of the DD 10's and 20.1's. However, the bass is so magnificent with the 20.1 I may end up selling the subs. Chris D... you listening? :W

Following along intently! I'm pretty happy with my subs, being dual SVS PC-Ultras. Are they the end-all, be-all? Probably not, but they perform fantastically, especially for the price!

[Jesse111]

Following along intently! I'm pretty happy with my subs, being dual SVS PC-Ultras. Are they the end-all, be-all? Probably not, but they perform fantastically, especially for the price!

One thing I've learned after some $100,000 spent in serching for the right gear for my ears is, if it sounds right to you - then you have found your high end. The Simaudio Andromeda CD player and P8 preamp are considered by some to be the best player/preamp in the world. So at a cost of almost 18K I gave them a try. While they offered the best build quality I've ever seen and phenominal sonic detail, they simply did not engage me. I found myself anylizing more often than enjoying. McIntosh on the other hand is rarely owned by high end reviewers and so called "audiophiles" and yet is some of the most popular gear on the market. The Mac MCD/MDA 1000 player at 15k is perhaps not the last word in high resolute detail but it's the sweetest most engaging CD player these ears have ever heard while still offering magnificent real life detail like nothing else I've heard. Their amps are the same way but I think one Mac peice of gear in the change offers all the sweetness I want. I'm hoping the JC-1's deliver a tad more punch and detail than the 501's bringing my system even closer to my personal sonic nirvana. If not, I may just keep my $300 yamaha reciever in the system for awhile. It sounds darn good for the money. It has a rather high noise floor but I'm amazed at the bass punch it offers. It's easy to overlook shortcomings for $300. For MSRP of 6K and up I excpect very high perfromance and rightly so.

It doesn't matter what the reviews say and I feel they should only be used as part of the criteria for developing a short list. Also, doesn't matter what letters or numbers are in the model number. If the subs you have are working for your ears then I agree with you that there's definately no need to spend another penny on them (just as long as you have two :T).

[Peter Nielsen]

Jesse, was it you that sold a pair of MG20.1s about a year ago? I remember seing a pair on Audiogon offered by somebody close to my location. I was very tempted to jump on that, but as I had just picked up my brand new 06 Viper SRT-10, my pocketbook held me back. (Eventually, I'm going to get another pair of 20.1 for the surrounds).

Anyway, that guy used a pair of Classé M400s, if I recall correctly. Are you maybe the same guy? It would be VERY interesting to hear what a former M400 owner has to say about the JC1...

Like I said, the JC1 *easily* bottoms out the MG20.1s and when the Maggies bottom out, the JC1 still plays clearly and totally distoriton free. The Maggies can't take all the power the JC1 can deliver...

I bet you'll be satisfied with the JC1. Personally, I feel it is the ULTIMATE amp, and I would have kept all the nine I had if it wasn't for the heat. (I considered building a special climate controlled area for them, etc. but felt that the time and cost was simply not worth it).

In a regular 2-channel setup, heat is no issue. If I set up a dedicated 2-channel system, it will definitely have JC1s (and probably a JC2).

Peter

[Jesse111]

Jesse, was it you that sold a pair of MG20.1s about a year ago? I remember seing a pair on Audiogon offered by somebody close to my location. I was very tempted to jump on that, but as I had just picked up my brand new 06 Viper SRT-10, my pocketbook held me back. (Eventually, I'm going to get another pair of 20.1 for the surrounds).

Anyway, that guy used a pair of Classé M400s, if I recall correctly. Are you maybe the same guy? It would be VERY interesting to hear what a former M400 owner has to say about the JC1...
Peter

Yes, you have a good memory. That was me. I sold the M400's also. Interestingly enough, they went to a guy with a pair of MG 20's. He loves them. Of course since concluding my research I've been very anxious to get the JC's. But, even more so since this thread I am truly looking forward to installing them.

I did not have the Classe amps with the Mac front end. But I will say that they are very well built. Low heat and powerful. I did not quite get the sense of the best bass control and not quite the sweet emotional engagement of a Mac. But they are very good amps. I found them to be quite neutral. I feel with the right source componant they would do extremely well. But those slight shortcomings (in my opinion) would prevent me from buying them again. But that may have had more to do with the Integra Research gear and then the Simaudio gear match/mismatch. Both Simaudio and Classe are Canadian companies but that may not be enough to make the necessary synergy. Slightly over priced in my opinion but definately worth an audition. If I had to choose, I'd probably pay another few thousand and get the McInstosh 1201. But the JC1's may turn out to be the great balance between the Maggies and the Mac source that I've been searching for.

[Peter Nielsen]

I did not quite get the sense of the best bass control.

That's a very interesting comment that matches what's printed on paper when you read between the lines. In the M400, Classé has solved the heat dissipation in an unorthodox way, not too unsimilar to what Carver does in his amps.

IMHO the JC1 has extremely good bass control. It uses a traditional Class A amp design with no tricks to limit Class A heat dissipation (other than the fool-proof solution of offering a simple switch for low/high bias).

Have you talked to the guy that post under the token "Sleestack" on the AVS forum, Audioholics, etc? Much like you, he has ploughed through $100k's worth of gear to find out what he likes best. Check out this thread: http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?postid=228241

Peter

[Jesse111]

That's a very interesting comment that matches what's printed on paper when you read between the lines. In the M400, Classé has solved the heat dissipation in an unorthodox way, not too unsimilar to what Carver does in his amps.

Have you talked to the guy that post under the token "Sleestack" on the AVS forum, Audioholics, etc? Much like you, he has ploughed through $100k's worth of gear to find out what he likes best. Check out this thread: http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?postid=228241

Peter

Interesting that you make a connection between Carver and Classe. I never thought much about that but I've felt for some time now that Classe is leaning just a bit too much to the HT bottomless pit of money market these days for my taste. I certainly can't blame them but HT just isn't my thing. Classe is without a doubt still producing high end two channel gear but just my personal opinion.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Peter. Reviewers rarely ever openly acknowledge the negative performance of gear (too much money in advertising at stake). But if you want to read a really good negative review, check this out. http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/p...d-deficiencies Man oh man, they let Sunfire have it right between the eyes. I actually owned the Sunfire TGIII for awhile. I found it a very good performer overall but completely agreed with audioholics, just too expensive for what you got. At 2K it would have been a very nice unit. That review along with Audioholics truth about cables and interconnects was the foundation of building their credibilty with me.

As consumers we have to learn the art of reading between the lines as you say. An expensive lesson in my case. But even so, there are so many variables and personal preference that I feel reviews have to be viewed as one of a few tools. Research and auditioning being two other primary ones. Gotta love this hobby.

Thanks for the link. Nice stuff and quite a testimonial to the subs. No, I've never talked with him. Interstingly though, his opinion on the sub issue is quite different from mine other than he seems to agree two is better than one. Very different systems and variables but obviously his system sounds superb to him.

[Peter Nielsen]

As consumers we have to learn the art of reading between the lines as you say. An expensive lesson in my case. But even so, there are so many variables and personal preference that I feel reviews have to be viewed as one of a few tools. Research and auditioning being two other primary ones. Gotta love this hobby.

Yeah... and the art of trying not to listen/follow advice at times. For instance, one MG20.1 owner told me that the JC-1 is not enough for the Maggies. He said I *need* a pair of $25k Classé Omegas to make them sing. Total bullsh!t - the JC-1 is enough to make the Maggies bottom out... What will that extra power in the Omegas do? Take out the bass panels? Move the room? :rofl: Just as useful as putting a truck engine in a Miata... Or spending $10k on a pair of 4' speaker cables...

Thanks for the link. Nice stuff and quite a testimonial to the subs. No, I've never talked with him. Interstingly though, his opinion on the sub issue is quite different from mine other than he seems to agree two is better than one. Very different systems and variables but obviously his system sounds superb to him.

Yeah, that picture is already old. I think he has already switched out everything except the corner load subs and the TacT preamp... He's *defintely* the guy to talk to about CD/DVD transports. He's owned everything from the top-of-the line Denons, Meridians to "exotics" like the Esoteric P03/D03 combo: http://www.head-fi.org/forums//showthread.php?t=191906

Peter

[RebelMan]

That's a very interesting comment that matches what's printed on paper when you read between the lines. In the M400, Classé has solved the heat dissipation in an unorthodox way, not too unsimilar to what Carver does in his amps.

Peter, would you elaborate please.

[Peter Nielsen]

Peter, would you elaborate please.

The short version: Carver dynamically alters the voltage of the +/- rails. This gives a very high power in Class A without the heat problems. The downside is that varying the voltage may have undesirable side effects.

The long version. Let's start with these facts:

1) The power is limited by the maximum output voltage and amperage.
2) Ohms laws say that power is voltage squared divided by resistance; P=(U^2)/R
3) Class A means that the amplifier always runs at full power

Let's take the JC1 with its simplistic construction as a perfect example. We start by deretmining the idle current for Class A operation. The JC1 delivers 25W at 8 ohms. Thus, Ohms laws tells us that the idle bias is P=(I^2)*R or I=(P/R)^0.5. In practice this means (25/8)^0.5 = 1.77 ampere.
Now, in order to be able to deliver 400W in 8 ohms, we can calculate (using Ohm's laws) that the minimum rail-to-rail voltage required is U=(P*R)^0.5, which yields (400*8)^0.5 = 56.6V or 113V rail-to-rail.

Thus, the single rail voltage in the JC1 is always 56.6 volts or higher, which lets it deliver 400W in 8 ohms. A lesser voltage would reduce the power output in 8 ohms.

The problem is the voltage difference, which results in energy lost in HEAT. If the JC1 was running at a voltage which accomodates for a max power of 25W, everything would be fine and dandy. 25W would result in a 25W heat loss. Simple as that.

The problem is the maximum power requirement, which in turn enforces the need for the high rail voltage. Because of this, we get a lot of heat. 113V*I is converted to pure heat in the heatsinks. I is the idle current, which yields P=U*I or 113*1.76 = 199W of heat!!! (In practice it's even more, because the voltage is quite a bit higher in order to provide a good margin that lets the amp produce power to the specs while taking into account power grid voltage fluctuations).

Now, what if you could alter the rail-to-rail voltage dynamically? Say keep it only as high as needed. That way the amp could operate in Class A all the time. This is what the Carver solution does. It raises the rail voltage dynamically and thus keeps the amp in Class A all the time... On paper, this all sounds fantastic! How well these tricks sound in practice depends on the implementation and listener...

The reviews that call the JC1 "a brute" are right on target! The JC1 is a very simple, right-on-target implementation of a Class AB amplifier. No tricks, just a very good selection of components and an excellent circuit board layout. I don't think it can get much better than this. If you want the same in a different, more expensive package, then look at Mark Levinson. They have the same strategy. No tricks in the hat, simply a hardcore well-proven design!

Peter

P.S. If Parasound reads this: The A51 could use more of the JC1/A21 design. Put it all on one well designed main PCB. Modular construction (as used in the A51) does not go hand in hand with audio excellence... On paper the A21 and A51 are similar. In practice, the difference is astounding!

P.S.S. There are no shortcuts or tricks to Class A. Class A equals heat output that goes hand in hand with max output power. This is why I feel confident in saying that Classé uses some tricks in the M400. The Class A specs make it obvious. It's probably just an alteration of what Carver is using in his amps - possibly taken to a less extreme. Carver does it full range, but it seems like Classé only does it within a limited range (which makes it sound better than Carver, yet it still has the same fundamental problems).

[Chris D]

This thread has become quite amazing.

Jesse, was it you that sold a pair of MG20.1s about a year ago? I was very tempted to jump on that, but as I had just picked up my brand new 06 Viper SRT-10, my pocketbook held me back. (Eventually, I'm going to get another pair of 20.1 for the surrounds).

Are you freakin' kidding me? Wow, I don't know what part of that to be astonished by first.

;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x(

[RebelMan]

The short version: Carver dynamically alters the voltage of the +/- rails. This gives a very high power in Class A without the heat problems. The downside is that varying the voltage may have undesirable side effects.

Now, what if you could alter the rail-to-rail voltage dynamically? Say keep it only as high as needed. That way the amp could operate in Class A all the time. This is what the Carver solution does. It raises the rail voltage dynamically and thus keeps the amp in Class A all the time... On paper, this all sounds fantastic! How well these tricks sound in practice depends on the implementation and listener...

This is why I feel confident in saying that Classé uses some tricks in the M400. The Class A specs make it obvious. It's probably just an alteration of what Carver is using in his amps - possibly taken to a less extreme. Carver does it full range, but it seems like Classé only does it within a limited range (which makes it sound better than Carver, yet it still has the same fundamental problems).

I follow and appreciate your explanation of the varying Class A side of an A/B implementation. However, it seems that your description of altering rail voltages addresses only the problems of traditional Class A design. As you previously stated this sounds like a good thing. So what are the inherent side effects/problems of varying rail voltages that you vaguely refer to? How does this negatively impact the delicate audio signals? You say the degree of effect depends on the implementation and the ears of the listener, how so? How is one implementation better than another? Why isn't this a better approach than a traditional Class A/B design? Does the trickery involved automatically preclude the design from sounding as good as a traditional one? Couldn't the opposite hold true?

Chris (mods), would you allow a little latitude with this questioning? This isn't an attempt to derail the thread. I think what Peter shares here would be valuable for all to read. Thanks.

P.S. I'll limit my questions to those posted above and prevent further off topic conversation. Thanks again.

[Peter Nielsen]

Why isn't this a better approach than a traditional Class A/B design? Does the trickery involved automatically preclude the design from sounding as good as a traditional one? Couldn't the opposite hold true?

Please don't get me wrong. I never said that the trickery doesn't work. Indeed, it seems to work well on paper. Nothing says it couldn't work in practice.

In theory, the idea sounds simple, but in practice it gets extremely complicated. How can you alter the rail voltage without causing other problems? The voltage needs to be changed extremely fast and accurately, and the voltage regulator needs to be able to deliver all current required. This is not an easy task. A small lag in power delivery could cause a perception of "lack of bass punch".

A traditional Class A or AB amp does not have a regulator. The rail is kept at constant voltage. Simple as that. Implementing the idea of varying rail voltage (or other trickery) requires the addition of additional control electronics. As things get more complicated there are more chances that something can go wrong. Jesse said that he noticed a lack of bass control in the M400. This could be an effect of the "trickery" in the M400 that is emphasized by the MG20.1. Maybe the M400 doesn't show this problem with a pair of traditional speakers.

Peter

[Chris D]

Chris (mods), would you allow a little latitude with this questioning? This isn't an attempt to derail the thread. I think what Peter shares here would be valuable for all to read. Thanks.

No worries! As far as I'm concerned, this is all directly related to the JC1, which is one of the things we talk about here.

[Jesse111]

Hello Rebelman, good to see you on board. Always enjoy your input.

I'm not as knowledgable of electronics. You and Peter have inform me of technical aspects I'd never considered. It sounds to me that the JC1 is built on a sure footed, tried and true platform with contemporary design, componants and expertise. Have you had the opportunity to audition the JC1?

[Chris D]

Jesse, the JC1 is more than "sure footed"--it's named that way for John Curl, the legendary builder of amplifiers and pre-amps. You can read some of Parasound's information and about him:

http://www.gspr.com/parasound/jc_6_points.html

http://www.gspr.com/parasound/pa_backgrounder.html

[Jesse111]

Jesse, the JC1 is more than "sure footed"--it's named that way for John Curl, the legendary builder of amplifiers and pre-amps.

http://www.gspr.com/parasound/jc_6_points.html

http://www.gspr.com/parasound/pa_backgrounder.html

I couldn't agree more Chris, based on all my research sure footed is an understatement. The marriage of mountain like stable design to the beautifully simplistic approach of less is more while implementing the purists class A design philosophy using the best parts available for true music lovers might be more apropos. While I was aware that JC stood for John Curl and I also read several articles on Mr. Curl, I had somehow missed those two links.

I have saved them both and will be printing them to be available on my visitors information wall. "The Wall" is where I frame and hang brief snippets of just the right kind of information on my gear to satisfy the curiosity of friends and associates that are usually quite awed with my system, informative but not too technical or wordy. I've been gathering info to try and put something short and sweet together for the JC1's but those to articles just nailed it for me. A few words from Schram and a few words from Curl. Perfect.

I really appreciate it, thanks.

[Chris D]

Hey, not a bad idea. I'm always looking for ideas like that, ways to really communicate well with visitors to my theater. The message that I always try to convey to them is:
1. Home theater is fun!
2. YOU can create a good-performing theater and enjoy quality audio and video without big $$$.
3. Yes, high-performance audio and video IS possible, and CAN be worth the cost and trouble.
4. I'll explain absolutely any details about my theater, design, choice of equipment, or their features that you want to hear about, but...
5. I will NOT discuss how much I paid for my stuff.

[RebelMan]

Hey Jesse, the feelings are mutual.

The JC1 is an impressive hunk of audio jewelry in both appearance and performance. I had the pleasure of hearing the JC1's with the C1 and a pair Vandersteen Model 5's some years ago. The 5's aren't exactly an easy load to drive but the JC1's didn't break hardly a sweat dancing to their tune. It was mostly a casual encounter that resulted in a standard issue affair. In other words, it was a pleasant experience but nothing about it was too remarkable, in my mind, other than the Halo mono-blocks of course. However, now, I think the JC1's will finally get their just rewards with the upcoming release of the JC2 to mate with. I would find the opportunity to hear these two gems sing together an honor, should one present itself.

As you know, I am partial to Classé and the CA-M400 in particular but make no mistake the JC1 is in familiar company. And when you consider the CA-M400 comes at a premium the JC1 can leverage this advantage. While I haven't compared the two side-by-side on a pair of B&W 800D I wouldn't doubt the JC1 would perform admirably. Which puzzles me a bit that you found the CA-M400 a little bass shy of your MG20.1. Peter's rational of the techniques Classé maybe using and its effects on bass output are plausible but unlikely, now days.

Krell has also been known to employ Class-A efficiency techniques called Sustained Plateau Biasing for years. The technology originated in their S series amplifiers almost two decades ago and it is still employed, albeit more mature, across the board today. As many here know the Krell name has been mostly synonymous with "kick a$$ bass" in their amplifiers. I wouldn't presume Classé is executing the same sequence of technological events to achieve similar levels of low end control but my experience with their CA-M400 mono-blocks and the rest of the Delta Series would indicate that they did. I think it would be fair and safe to say that this is sure footed design methodology too. :B

In any event, the JC1's are well made and very linear down to low impedance's, and I see no technical reason why they wouldn't take your MG20.1's on the ride you are looking for.

[Jesse111]

Thanks Rebelman. Whenever you give your stamp of approval on a piece of gear it always makes me feel a bit more confident. I still have not received the JC1's but they should be showing up in a few days. I'll of course be posting my opinion soon after.

[The Borg]

Jesse,

First time poster here... About your stand on cables, I started building a sound system about 2 years ago and didn't expect very much of a difference between interconnect cables, speaker cables, or power cords. The differences between cables that I have found has been quite surprising. At the beginning,I was very skeptical and did a lot of swaps and dedicated listening sessions. I don't understand how they change the sound, but they do it. Power cords have turned out to make the most difference. A 'warm' cable turns out to be Audioquest NRG5 and a 'precise' cable turns out to be the Shunyata line. Recently, I finally got hold of a Shunyata Anaconda Helix Alpha on Audiogon and swaped it for my previous Taipan Helix Alpha between the wall and PLC. Good Lord! It opened things up from front to back quite well. The spaciousness makes you feel that 'you aren't there,' but 'they are here.' I'm running Maggie 3.6s, Bryston 10B, with an Anthem D2 and dual Anthem P2s. I believe I was extremely skeptical before this whole building process. If a salesman tried to convince me that a power cord would impove the sound, I would try to nod politely as I looked for the door. I now have bitten the bullet and have settled with Goertz AG3 speaker cables and a mix of various Shunyata and Audioquest power cords. It seems that you get what you pay for. Again, before this, I would have been the first to say this was all hogwash, but...

About this tread, it is indeed very interesting. Maggies do need extra help with the lower range and the coupling with a dynamic speaker sound like a good idea. Best of luck.