Speaker Setup - large or small?

[sikoniko]

I went into my local b&w shop this afternoon and spoke to an installer about my upgraditis. I my conversation, he said that the first thing he would do, before anything, would be to check the setup. He was very adment about setting speakers to small, no matter what speaker you use (including a pair of signature 800's), if you have a subwoofer.

I have my 804's and my htm1 set to large right now, and I was wondering what everyone else set their speakers to, if they had compared these settings and what the outcomes were.

[gostan]

Small for HT in 5.1 and Large for stereo with no subwoofer.

[Aussie Geoff]

Sikoniko,

Just to build on what Gostan says. When you set them to SMALL you have basically two choices:

1) If your power amplifiers are limited - set them to 80 Hz and SMALL as this is what Movies are mixed for (THX standard and most now just follow on). The sub 80 Hz bass can use lots of power too and will strain lesser amps on the B&Ws etc

2) If your power amplifiers are more ample, then set them to SMALL and 10 to 20 Hz above their minus 3 dB cut-off point (i.e. 50 or 60Hz) this will allow a seamless transition to the sub woofer. (Some people set to the speaker cutover but then you are both straining the speaker and having the processor and the speaker add their own bass cut-off slopes - creating a dip in the bass response)

I.E. SMALL doesn’t mean small speakers – just that the processor will do bass redirection.

If you have an analog input for pure stereo then it is worth setting the sub off for this to avoid the processor reconverting to digital and back to analog (loss of quality). However many people (me included) have found that with the right digital cable, CD player etc – you can get very good results from the digital link and this even use the sub for the 40Hz and below range for your fronts… You can hear the extra depth from this.

Bottom line – listen and try it… Your dealer should be able to show you easily the difference…

Geoff

[DrBoom]

I have my 804's, HTM2 and 805's all set to small for everything except Stereo.
For movies I use an 80 Hz crossover, I wouldn't want to damage anything with loud bass peaks in an action movie (recently watched Daredevil and boy was I glad they were set to Small).
I'm not sure how much of bass is present in normal front channels on DVD's, or if most of the loud bass is in the LFE signal that goes to the sub anyway.
I've never really tried it, but for movies I'm happy with the small 80 Hz setting.
For stereo I'd always select Large without sub, unless you have a really good subwoofer that integrates perfectly with the fronts.

[sikoniko]

I have an earthquake cinnenova grande 5, which is disigned as 5 300w monoblocks housed in one unit.

I did have my crossover set at 40, but per you guys suggestion, I set it at 60. Maybe its my ignorance on the 80 that makes me hesitant on setting it that high. I hate the idea of taking too much away from my main speakers. I guess my thought is, I want them to perform to their fullest. It also makes me think that the more I take away, the better off I would have been with the 805's, which in my opinion are very good and highly accurate, but thinner sounding than the 804's.

[Mark_C.]

Ah, yes, when nothing but the best becomes too much. Just set up two systems...804s in a two-channel system, 805s for the HT. I did :B

[Aussie Geoff]

Go listen... It's the only way to be sure

Shikoniko,

Here is the 804's rated response:
Freq. Response 45Hz - 20kHz ± 2dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 30Hz and 30kHz
-3dB at 38Hz and 22kHz

So 40 Hz is JUST doable with your 300W amps... (though with deep bass you will be putting some serious excursion into the cones if you play loud) I'd also be concerned about a small dip in the bass due to your speakers level dropping off, adding to the matching 12 or 24 dB cut-off of the processor...

My advice is to listen - you will soon know what you’ll like...

I went through the same agony 4 years ago "you mean I have to set my large 30 Hz cut-off floostanders to SMALL" - However I tried a few combinations and it sounded better....

I have found that with a tight, musical sub (like the ASW 850, 750) you will get much better results with the higher crossover.... However until you get the better sub, you may be OK sticking to the 40Hz to avoid the mushy bass etc.

Trust us - you've done lots of posts, asked your dealer and basically got small variations of the same answer from everyone - it's like you don't want to believe - the 804 with a ASW 850 or 750, set up with a nice 60 or 80 Hz crossover will be very special and much better than what you have now...

It’s time to go listen in the store - It's a lot of money and the only way to be sure...

Geoff

[gostan]

Sikoniko:

I have been experimenting with my 803's with an Aragon 8008St which is rated at 200 @ 8ohms and 300@4 ohms at 60 at small with a 60hz crossover or a 80hz crossover. The 60hz crossover seems to work best so far, but I have to play around with more movies and music types and the 60hz and 80hz crossovers. The 40hz crossover did not seem to sound as good.

Stan

[sikoniko]

Trust us - you've done lots of posts, asked your dealer and basically got small variations of the same answer from everyone - it's like you don't want to believe - the 804 with a ASW 850 or 750, set up with a nice 60 or 80 Hz crossover will be very special and much better than what you have now...

It’s time to go listen in the store - It's a lot of money and the only way to be sure...

Geoff[/COLOR]

Its not that I don't want to trust you guys... Its just none of my dealers carry these things in stock for me to go listen. One dealer has a pair of 802's, and a pair of 804's, but primarily preaches definitive technology, which sound thin to me comparetively, while the other dealer has a pair of 805's, 802's and signature 800's, and sells mostly velodyne subs.

basically, no matter who tells me what, I will be making a blind choice.

part of my problem is that I don't really have enough money to finish what I started, so I can be done with my upgrades and save up for my house. I want to trade in my 804's towards 803's before my year is up, and that obtainable and would finish my upgrades on my mains. if i do that, my sub is still lacking. the more thought i put into upgrading to the 850, the more it really seems unrealistic at this time. With that in mind, I could afford a 750, but that might be it, and then i would be frustrated that it isnt really what I wanted, just what I could afford, and might be stuck long term with it (kind of like the ugly duckling syndrome).

so to recap, I could upgrade my 804's to 803's and have an even better sound stage than the greatness I have now, but still a sore thumb of a sub, or I could upgrade my sub to a better sub than I have now, but still doesn't integrate well with my speakers, I don't really want it, and I might get stuck with.

damned if I do.... damned if I don't...

[Aussie Geoff]

Let me try and make the "agony" go away :-)

Sikoniko,

Let me put it this way - the difference with the 803 to the 804 is, while distinct, for many people not enough to justify the extra $1,500 - so I would ONLY do it if you are confident you can afford the better sub in the next 12 months or so...

Otherwise IMO you would be better off with the ASW750 sub now of that's what you can afford (get Cherry which will be a reasonable visual match for your 803s) and get your dealer to commit to a 12 month upgrade to a 850 on it. My dealer sells the 750 for 803s, 804s and 805s in small to medium sized rooms… - sees it as much better value than the ASW 800… (very similar specs and sound for much less $ - he claims the main difference in the squarer cabinet - resilting in cheaper consitruction)... This is the same dealer that demoed the (even better) 850 to me..

That way in the worst case (your house keeps you "financially occupied" for the next 10 years and you do NO further upgrades) you will still have a much better set-up than most...

I would only recommend the new 803s (good as they are) IF yo were confident you could upgrade subs in a reasonable time OR did 80-90% of your listening in pure stereo - no sub.. Otherwise IMO you will have an unbalanced set-up

Geoff

[gostan]

Although, I have been blown away by the combination of the 803's, HTM1 and 850 sub across the front for movies, I would concur with Geoff, especially if you listen to more HT than redbook stereo. The subwoofer upgrade will be more useful right now if you keep the 804's, which are, in their own right, a great speaker.

[sikoniko]

I'm going to my dealer tomorrow to see what kind of deal we can come up with. Im going to see if he won't get me the 850, allowing me to pay 1500, and do monthly installments. That way I dont pay interest, and he doesnt have to worry about ordering something that will be coming back to him in six months and then possibly take a loss on it. i see it as a win-win.