800D/Di/801D owners. Do they play nice at low volume levels?

[buggerhead]

Hello all.

I've been looking at swapping my Klipsch RF-7II for a pair of B&W. My system is setup in the living room so in many cases I play music at low volume levels.

Over the years I've learned that not all speakers play nice until you crank up the volume quite a bit, B&W N803 is a good example. If you didn't give them some juice they sounded like they had a blanket over them. Quite annoying IMHO.

Can anyone please give me some info about how the new B&W speakers are performing at low volume levels please?

The RF7-II plays great at low volume btw

[madmac]

Well, all speakers seem to have their optimum volume level to produce their best 'presentation' of their abilities. Not many speakers do well at low volumes but in a way....who cares.....because at low volumes, you're really not listening to them right?. You are basically using them for 'back ground' sound right?.

In the old days, there used to be what was known at the time as a 'loudness' button/switch to compensate for low listening levels and the lack of bass thereof.

I don't think that exists anymore.....???

[beden1]

You will need a speaker more efficient than the 90dB 800Di specs to produce low volume full bodied sound. IMO, 93dB or better.

[Greg Gale]

The new 802 Diamonds are far superior to the old N802 which I owned for 12 years at low volumes. The original N802's had to be turned up to appreciate what they were capable of but the new 802 Diamonds sound good at low listening levels letting you hear all the details of the recording still giving you a feeling of the bass quality.

My problem is that once I start out at low listening levels I always want more of a good thing and end up turning it up.

[Pedro]

As said B&W wouldnt give the same feeling at low level as Klipsch being this last too much sensible. Maybe the top 800 series could deliver a better clarity at low level listening due their excellent midrange. Another thing to be considered is the gear you´re using, the most powerful you have better will be your low level auditions.

[Kal Rubinson]

As said B&W wouldnt give the same feeling at low level as Klipsch being this last too much sensible.

It also has an entirely different sound which will "scale down" differently. IMHO, Klipschs have a built-in loudness compensation in the form of their FR which I do not care for but which might be useful at low levels. That said, I found that the 802Ds were pretty good at low levels but the new 800 Diamonds are even better.

[wettou]

They are designed to play loud :T

[DeepEndX]

I was a previous owner of N801 and current owner of 800D's. They play ok at low levels but excellent at loud levels. The differences are very significant.

[RebelMan]

I find the more accurate the speaker the more true it will hold to the equal-loudness curves as measured by Fletcher/Munson. The 800's are those. Of course the environment in which they play is equally important.

[Kal Rubinson]

I find the more accurate the speaker the more true it will hold to the equal-loudness curves as measured by Fletcher/Munson.

I cannot imagine how that is possible. What I rather think is that speakers that are inaccurate have their inadequacies revealed more clearly at low levels. As my son-in-law said as the market crumbled in 2008 and many financial institutions failed, "As the tide recedes, you see which bathers aren't wearing pants."

[RebelMan]

I cannot imagine how that is possible.

Reacquaint yourself with the science behind the curves and I think you'll see my point. Though your interpretation is not disagreeable.

[Kal Rubinson]

The curves represent changes in human spectral sensitivity at varying levels. If you are suggesting that some speakers change their FR in compensation for that, I would like to see how that is accomplished. How can the speaker distinguish between a naturally-occurring low level sound and one that is low because I turned the volume down?

I do believe that the FR of a speaker will sound different to us at different levels because of our changing sensitivity. But we are the variable and the speaker FR changes little with input/output levels (within bounds). Perhaps you are saying that there are some which have a FR which is accommodating to FM curves at low levels and which we "accept" or adapt to at higher levels. That I can buy: Tipping up the lows and highs sells speakers to some people.

[emig5m]

In reply to the original topic: This is why I like Audyssey's Dynamic EQ.

[Kal Rubinson]

In reply to the original topic: This is why I like Audyssey's Dynamic EQ.

And I don't.

[quan325i]

I was a previous owner of N801 and current owner of 800D's. They play ok at low levels but excellent at loud levels. The differences are very significant.

+1 for me as a current owner of 801N. My 801N was ok when driven by a pair of Mcintosh 501 but they did come out and sing when I swapped in a pair of Krell 650mc.

[buggerhead]

Well, all speakers seem to have their optimum volume level to produce their best 'presentation' of their abilities. Not many speakers do well at low volumes but in a way....who cares.....because at low volumes, you're really not listening to them right?. You are basically using them for 'back ground' sound right?.

In the old days, there used to be what was known at the time as a 'loudness' button/switch to compensate for low listening levels and the lack of bass thereof.

I don't think that exists anymore.....???

I use my setup both for listening and for back ground music. IMHO you do not need to listen to music every time you turn the rig on. Having the option to actually play some music in the back ground that sounds ok is an important issue for me, and I would think for many others.

I moved my system into the living room since this is where I and my family spend most of our time when we're at home. I want my system to be used by all family members, not just me. The best way to make this happen is by having a setup that plays nice even at low levels.

Thanks for all your feedback ppl. I got a deal on a pair of 800D that I might go for. They will be fed by a pair of McIntosh MC1.2KWs so I hope they will sing for me at both low and high level of output.

cheers

[Skyblue]

They really really should! Congratulations!

[wettou]

I use my setup both for listening and for back ground music. IMHO you do not need to listen to music every time you turn the rig on. Having the option to actually play some music in the back ground that sounds ok is an important issue for me, and I would think for many others.
I moved my system into the living room since this is where I and my family spend most of our time when we're at home. I want my system to be used by all family members, not just me. The best way to make this happen is by having a setup that plays nice even at low levels.

I got a deal on a pair of 800D that I might go for. They will be fed by a pair of McIntosh MC1.2KWs so I hope they will sing for me at both low and high level of output.

cheers

I could not agree more and yes the McIntosh will make the 800D sing :T

[emig5m]

And I don't.

Care to elaborate as to why? I find music CD's to be all over the place in sound (some overly bass/treble heavy and some bass/treble shy) so I tend to use different levels of DynEQ depending on the recording. And sometimes I just want to purposely color the sound (no shame in my game).

[Kal Rubinson]

Care to elaborate as to why? I find music CD's to be all over the place in sound (some overly bass/treble heavy and some bass/treble shy) so I tend to use different levels of DynEQ depending on the recording. And sometimes I just want to purposely color the sound (no shame in my game).

I find it gives an unnaturally heavy character to the sound with all music. I did use it for NFL games and I might for other events if I felt it useful, so I will not try to dissuade you from using it.

BTW, I do not have it in the same system as the 800Diamonds so this is a little tangential to this thread.

[jrdiandrea]

I'm a bit late to this conversation but wanted to add my experience. Mostly due to the fact that when my new 800 Diamonds broke in one of the first things I noticed was the relative equality between lower and higher levels and the significant sense of dynamics at lower levels. It was really very impressive to me. No question that what you're driving them with is as important as the performance of the speaker. I've had my new 800s for about 15 months. I have 2 Viola Symphonys...one per 800. Prior to that I enjoyed my Nautilus 802s powered by a lexicon zx7. Had them for 7-8 years and loved them. But for me, the 800s take the music experience to a more refined/defined level.

Lastly, if you don't have a good performing room (which for me, is an equally important instrument as the speaker & power amps are) your chance of achieving a full presentation and satisfying experience is greatly diminished, especially at lower levels. I believe that's the most common culprit which interferes in this and many other areas of performance but is more often overlooked. I'm fortunate to have had my dream room built about 4 years ago. Best thing I could have ever done....no matter what equipment I was running.

[scanido]

I'm a bit late to this conversation but wanted to add my experience. Mostly due to the fact that when my new 800 Diamonds broke in one of the first things I noticed was the relative equality between lower and higher levels and the significant sense of dynamics at lower levels. It was really very impressive to me. No question that what you're driving them with is as important as the performance of the speaker.

...

I agree with this statement. The speakers are as only as good as the electronics driving them.

I progressed from a Rotel RSX-1057 Receiver (75w) to McIntosh MC205 MultiCh amp (200w) and now to my current mono amps McIntosh MC601 (600w) and each upgrade resulted in much more control of the sound at ALL volume levels.

Resolution, detail, and the size of the soundstage increased with each upgrade and now at lower volume I can enjoy the music/movies without having it too loud.

[madmac]

I agree with this statement. The speakers are as only as good as the electronics driving them.

I progressed from a Rotel RSX-1057 Receiver (75w) to McIntosh MC205 MultiCh amp (200w) and now to my current mono amps McIntosh MC601 (600w) and each upgrade resulted in much more control of the sound at ALL volume levels.

Resolution, detail, and the size of the soundstage increased with each upgrade and now at lower volume I can enjoy the music/movies without having it too loud.

I agree with Kal in regards to a good speaker sounding good at any volume level.....except in regards to bass response and extention, which will always suffer unless given adequate power, that low volume levels cannot supply.

On another note, I currently have the RSX-1057 and I am curious to hear your thoughts and details on how your 'sound' presentation changed with the McIntosh gear??. Better I assume?. How much better??? I am assuming that you are running the same speakers as you did with the 1057 ??

[ninja12]

I agree with this statement. The speakers are as only as good as the electronics driving them.

I would also add that the speakers are only as good as the room that they are in. Equipment and Speakers equals half of the sound. The room equals the other half of the sound.

[scanido]

I agree with Kal in regards to a good speaker sounding good at any volume level.....except in regards to bass response and extention, which will always suffer unless given adequate power, that low volume levels cannot supply.

On another note, I currently have the RSX-1057 and I am curious to hear your thoughts and details on how your 'sound' presentation changed with the McIntosh gear??. Better I assume?. How much better??? I am assuming that you are running the same speakers as you did with the 1057 ??

The bass response was the initial difference I heard when going through the amp changes, not only at louder levels, but at low levels as well.

I initially had 803S' driven by RSX1057 in my room (17'x12) and it drove those speakers quite well. I had to always be cautious though of playing loud when peaks were over >100db, but i mostly had them at reasonable levels (70-80db) so the receiver was fine for these levels, but i always felt that a t higher volume the receiver was strained. The sound became not as easy to listen to and sounded compressed. Dynamics in the music were ok.

The Mac MC205 amp really gave the 803S' room to breath! At the same loudness the speakers became easier to listen to. Smoother sounding and the dynamics had more impact. It was also at the lower levels where the MC205 shined. The sound was more "effortless", coherent, and more controlled. The MC205 is a great powerful multich amp that drove my "S" speakers very well and also did a good job on my 802 Diamonds. I would have been really satisfied here... until I was foolish enough to hear Mac's latest amps :T

[Pedro]

+1 for me as a current owner of 801N. My 801N was ok when driven by a pair of Mcintosh 501 but they did come out and sing when I swapped in a pair of Krell 650mc.

That´s what I´m waiting to do... Soon I would be able to connect my EVO 600e into my 801D. I do believe power is important for low listening levels. And as many quoted the old nautilus series, from my experience since the old D series I was able to listen in low levels, the old N and S required too much power to sing well. I dont know about the new diamond but I suppose they still do a good job under low power amplification.

[RebelMan]

The curves represent changes in human spectral sensitivity at varying levels. If you are suggesting that some speakers change their FR in compensation for that, I would like to see how that is accomplished. How can the speaker distinguish between a naturally-occurring low level sound and one that is low because I turned the volume down?

Not suggesting that the speakers change by any means only that some hold truer to what is (should be) naturally observed by the listener. The more linear the speaker's response the more likely the listener will hear reproduced frequencies that follow the curves. The samples taken by Fletcher-Munson show that humans are less sensitive to the first few octaves than they are with much of the audio band from the midrange up. One way to compensate is by adding more pressure (volume). The other is to design a speaker that enhances the low end (or conversly does little to minimize low frequency anomolies.) My response to the OP comments illustrated that B&W speakers like the 800 series do not need to be driven hard (loud) to over come any imperfections that lie within but rather our own.

Perhaps you are saying that there are some which have a FR which is accommodating to FM curves at low levels and which we "accept" or adapt to at higher levels. That I can buy: Tipping up the lows and highs sells speakers to some people.

Indeed and hopefully I clarified.

[Marco Lisi]

Why not compensate the low level 'poorness' in bass by using a DB-1 along with a pair of 802Di or 800Di. You get like a 1.000 watts of low frequency energy. At low levels the deepest bass is still there and audible.

The advantage of such a setup is that your 'sound foundation' becomes even better, which ads up in more airiness/openness in mid/high.

[Kal Rubinson]

Adding a sub does not have any effect on the ear's changing sensitivity with level unless one chooses to bump up the sub in compensation. That is equivalent to the loudness/EQ/tone control.

[madmac]

I was sitting and listening to some music yesterday and something was not quite right. I clicked my volume button on my remote and raised the volume by only 1 on my Rotel remote from 57 to 58 and everything fell into place and became 'right' !!. Astounding !!!

Like I said above....I believe that speakers have their 'comfort' zone power wise. when you're in that zone, the speaker will sing for you!!. I mean, at low volume levels, my subs won't even turn on!!. I could force them to turn on if I wanted but at super low volume levels, I'm not really listening anyway so who cares right!!??.

[Antus]

it could be the amp.
at extremely low output, power amp may not have liner output.

[PewterTA]

I believe the more powerful the amp, the better it plays at lower volumes....regardless of what speakers.

Now of course, some speakers are better than others at lower volumes...no doubt.

One thing I noticed is through the modifications I've done to all my equipment, the lower level listening is now completely consistent with the normal listening. I used to lose a lot of detail in the music at lower levels until I turned it up. I no longer suffer from that, things are just louder, but all the detail is there. Bass on the other hand still suffers the most "change" from lower levels to higher due to the fact that the driver doesn't move as much air. But it's still there.

Anything that helps the signal get to the driver as easily as possible... well that can't be a bad thing!

[Pio]

The new 802 Diamonds are far superior to the old N802 which I owned for 12 years at low volumes. The original N802's had to be turned up to appreciate what they were capable of but the new 802 Diamonds sound good at low listening levels letting you hear all the details of the recording still giving you a feeling of the bass quality.

My problem is that once I start out at low listening levels I always want more of a good thing and end up turning it up.

+1 on all counts. I too owned a pair of N802, then 802D and now the new versions. The new Diamond is as much of an improvement as the 802D was to the N802. And as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the 802Ds are very good.

[bigburner]

I believe the more powerful the amp, the better it plays at lower volumes....regardless of what speakers.

Agreed.

[Marco Lisi]

Adding a sub does not have any effect on the ear's changing sensitivity with level unless one chooses to bump up the sub in compensation. That is equivalent to the loudness/EQ/tone control.

Hi Kal

I just want to make sure that I understand you right.

In comparison a setup with 800Di's and good electronics would sound the same then the same setup but then with for example a DB-1 introduced in the system, cutting the 800Di's off at 80hZ?

Looking forward to your feedback.

Cheers!

[Kal Rubinson]

Hi Karl

I just want to make sure that I understand you right.

In comparison a setup with 800Di's and good electronics would sound the same then the same setup but then with for example a DB-1 introduced in the system, cutting the 800Di's off at 80hZ?

Looking forward to your feedback.

Cheers!

I did not say that. Note that I referred to the necessity to "bump up" the sub as compensation for our reduced LF sensitivity at low levels. If the sub is properly balanced with the main speakers, it will have no effect on FR at any level except, perhaps, on extension.

[Weetabix]

There's always a bit of a clue in the power handling of the speaker.

It's horses for courses, select the right tool for the job.

If it's a small room and low replay levels are the order of the day, then a compact 2-way standmount may be the optimum speaker of choice.

If it's a medium sized room, and fair volume levels are required, perhaps either a larger set of standmounts or a floorstander with a higher power capacity may be worth considering.

If it's a large to very large room and realistic replay levels are required, then of course a large pair of high power capacity speakers will be optimum.

Which is why there is no one speaker which will identifiably fit the bill, best to listen and evaluate which products suits best in that given listening room.

regards

[Marco Lisi]

I did not say that. Note that I referred to the necessity to "bump up" the sub as compensation for our reduced LF sensitivity at low levels. If the sub is properly balanced with the main speakers, it will have no effect on FR at any level except, perhaps, on extension.

Hi Kal

In my opinion it does have effect on extension. The overall low frequency 'awareness' will increase in this case (800Di + DB-1). Perhaps the need to turn up the volume will decrease in that way. If you have like all the amplifier power reserved just for the low end frequencies, in comparison with an amp that has to provide for the whole frequency band, I think that is a different listening experience. The extension could provide just enough 'sense' of LF output.

Greetings

[Kal Rubinson]

Hi Karl

In my opinion it does have effect on extension. The overall low frequency 'awareness' will increase in this case (800Di + DB-1). Perhaps the need to turn up the volume will decrease in that way. If you have like all the amplifier power reserved just for the low end frequencies, in comparison with an amp that has to provide for the whole frequency band, I think that is a different listening experience. The extension could provide just enough 'sense' of LF output.

Greetings

First, it is Kal, not Karl.
Second, I did say that adding a sub can provide bass extension and it is possible, depending on room, speakers and perception, that such extension might permit one to be able to play at a lower level without feeling a lack of extreme bass.

That does not change the physics or the psychophysics that govern the situation.