Sub crossover point for 803Di

[mpauline]

Normally in my processor and my OPPO I set the crossover to 80Hz and the speakers to small. With the 803Di's and HTM2Di should I change this?

Thanks

[ninja12]

Normally in my processor and my OPPO I set the crossover to 80Hz and the speakers to small. With the 803Di's and HTM2Di should I change this?

Thanks

Probably not. Listen to it and see how it sounds to you. You should also try a crossover of 60 Hz too.

[stuofsci02]

Even with my 804s and HTM3S I prefer 60 Hz... But do try for yourself..

Cheers

Stuart

[Rod#S]

Normally in my processor and my OPPO I set the crossover to 80Hz and the speakers to small. With the 803Di's and HTM2Di should I change this?

Thanks

IMO 80Hz is too high for the 803Di, if you're rolling off so much of the low frequencies you may as well have gotten the 805Di and saved a bunch of money if you didn't hear any advantages from the FST midrange driver in the 803Di which the 805Di does not use. The 803Di is rated at almost the same as the 802Di and I have my 802Di's set at 50Hz. I thought about setting them at 40Hz but figured that's too close to their rated 34Hz.

As for the HTM2Di, I initially had mine set at 60Hz but got some distortion when playing Tron Legacy on Blu-ray, the intense soundtrack just seemed to be too much for my HTM2Di at 60Hz so I raised it to 70Hz and haven't had a problem since. I would prefer 60Hz for the HTM2Di but better to be safe then sorry. This is where I really miss not having the option of getting an updated HTM1D to the new Diamonds line, that should have been able to handle 50Hz not to mention 60Hz.

[beden1]

I have my 803Ds set at 50Hz and my HTM2D set at 60Hz. The 803Ds are set to large and the HTM2D set to small. I also have the HTM2D set with a gain of 4dB.

In my HT setup in our PA house, my Marantz AV7005 with Audyssey has the front 3 speakers (804Di and HTM4Di) automatically set for large and crossed over at 40Hz.

[mpauline]

I have my 803Ds set at 50Hz and my HTM2D set at 60Hz. The 803Ds are set to large and the HTM2D set to small. I also have the HTM2D set with a gain of 4dB.

In my HT setup in our PA house, my Marantz AV7005 with Audyssey has the front 3 speakers (804Di and HTM4Di) automatically set for large and crossed over at 40Hz.

I am trying it at 40Hz and set as large. Does not really seem to be that much bass response from the 803Di's. Maybe it my amp?

[beden1]

I am trying it at 40Hz and set as large. Does not really seem to be that much bass response from the 803Di's. Maybe it my amp?

I would imagine that the lack of bass response is as a result of a combination of things, including: room acoustics, speaker positioning, lack of amp power, your source player and your electronics. I also started to get more bass output once the speakers had some hours on them.

I told you that this hobby, especially with B&W speakers, is a challenging experience.

[madmac]

I am trying it at 40Hz and set as large. Does not really seem to be that much bass response from the 803Di's. Maybe it my amp?

My rule of thumb is this. If the speakers you have contain an 8 inch driver or less, set the processor to small and the crossover to 80 hz for the sub. This is because an 8 incher or less will not accurately produce bass below that frequency (key word being 'accurately' and at a good volume level) . Now, This is assuming that the sub is as good quality as the main speakers with the same driver composition. If not and for music, use only the best speakers you have.

If your mains contain a larger driver.....lets say a 10 inch woofer or bigger (very rare nowadays!!), then you can set the main left and right to large and only use the sub for home theater applications.

The other thing is if you like multichannel music. In that case, I STRONGLY recommend the small setup with the sub handling the low frequencies. Powering 5 speakers takes a fair amount of power and having the powered sub take care of the low bass frees up piles of power for the amp to drive the 5 speakers. :T

[olilugo]

I have always heard of playing with the crossover to improve bass. However I find this to be somewhat confusing. To me there is diffrence between rumbling sound and what I think of bass sound like in the case of bass drum for example.
According to some sites that talk about the range of Hz for drums here is what they say:
"Bass drum: 50Hz to 5.5 kHz, thump in chest boost a few dB between 60-85Hz, punch or slap 2.5 kHz to 5 kHz, hollow sound cut out around 250-500Hz by a few dB."
I also agree with madmac that having speakers that use 10" or bigger woofers on the speaker itself, plus the right amp and everything else then this is the best setup.
I find that receivers/and pre-amps seam to cater to movies and what its being passed to the wubwoofer is more of the very low frequency rumbeling sound and not the tight punch in your chest sound.
Messing with all kinds of settings on a single system to satisfy home theater duty as well as music duty in my opinion takes too many tweeks and it becomes old very fast.
I think based on the quote above if you have 6-7" woofers then 80-100 hz is probably the right crossover.
one possible variable here is how do you like your sound, you might like it less pounding therefore even a lower crossover might be just fine, meaning you want the bass to come from you speakers but because your speakers have a 6-8" woofer then it comes to sence that the impact should not be as powerful and deep as if the external subwoofer is hanling everything say below 80-100hz.

[Tony1]

I've tried 60Hz, 80Hz whenever I set my mains and center to small just makes my whole system sound thin. When I take the crossover's off I get that fullness 3D sound.

[Isaac]

Subwoofers are made to produce the lower frequency. Fronts, center and surrounds are not made to produce deep bass. If you have a home theater setup I suggest using 80hz for the crossover point. Even though your front speakers are able to produce some the of lower frequencies its better to let them play the frequencies they are better at producing.

[madmac]

I have always heard of playing with the crossover to improve bass. However I find this to be somewhat confusing. To me there is diffrence between rumbling sound and what I think of bass sound like in the case of bass drum for example.
According to some sites that talk about the range of Hz for drums here is what they say:
"Bass drum: 50Hz to 5.5 kHz, thump in chest boost a few dB between 60-85Hz, punch or slap 2.5 kHz to 5 kHz, hollow sound cut out around 250-500Hz by a few dB."
I also agree with madmac that having speakers that use 10" or bigger woofers on the speaker itself, plus the right amp and everything else then this is the best setup.
I find that receivers/and pre-amps seam to cater to movies and what its being passed to the wubwoofer is more of the very low frequency rumbeling sound and not the tight punch in your chest sound.
Messing with all kinds of settings on a single system to satisfy home theater duty as well as music duty in my opinion takes too many tweeks and it becomes old very fast.
I think based on the quote above if you have 6-7" woofers then 80-100 hz is probably the right crossover.
one possible variable here is how do you like your sound, you might like it less pounding therefore even a lower crossover might be just fine, meaning you want the bass to come from you speakers but because your speakers have a 6-8" woofer then it comes to sence that the impact should not be as powerful and deep as if the external subwoofer is hanling everything say below 80-100hz.

Bass is Bass honestly. LFE in movies is just another form of bass too. At the end of the day, a good, independently powered sub is going to do it better than any 5.5 to 8 inch driver will. As for music vs. home theater, my system (specifically the bass management part...ie...the sub) is and was optimized initially for music, while listening to music. If you get your sub sounding proper for accurate bass in music reproduction (ie...EQ'd and not too loud), then it will perform equally properly in movie applications. When the bass is set right, it is right for everything you will throw at it and will require only minor volume adjustments. :T

[beden1]

Subwoofers are made to produce the lower frequency. Fronts, center and surrounds are not made to produce deep bass. If you have a home theater setup I suggest using 80hz for the crossover point. Even though your front speakers are able to produce some the of lower frequencies its better to let them play the frequencies they are better at producing.

That's what I had always read in these types of threads before, but if this is in fact true, then why does Audyssey set my front speakers to large and the crossover lower than 80hz?

[Tweir]

The crossover setting for the 803d's depends on how much power you have. If you have an av receiver I would recommended keeping the lower bass dedicated to the LFE channel and 80hz would be fine. However if you have a good amp anywhere in the 400 watt to 600 watt range then I would run them full range and have them do the LFE channel as well. I have experimented with these settings and most times if you have the power the bass is beter distributed running your speakers full range.

[beden1]

The crossover setting for the 803d's depends on how much power you have. If you have an av receiver I would recommended keeping the lower bass dedicated to the LFE channel and 80hz would be fine. However if you have a good amp anywhere in the 400 watt to 600 watt range then I would run them full range and have them do the LFE channel as well. I have experimented with these settings and most times if you have the power the bass is beter distributed running your speakers full range.

My 803Ds are driven by 350 watts per channel and they do just fine. It's also the quality of the power. That being said, the woofers on the 803Di(s) should be easier to drive than my 803Ds.

[madmac]

That's what I had always read in these types of threads before, but if this is in fact true, then why does Audyssey set my front speakers to large and the crossover lower than 80hz?

I don't think you should let 'machines' and 'audio processors' do your thinking and calibrations for you!. Let you and your ears do the settings for your system. I mean, we're all audio and video 'freaks' here right??. Why would you trust a machine to set up your system for you??. At least experiment and find what sounds best for your tastes!. :W

[Tweir]

I don't think you should let 'machines' and 'audio processors' do your thinking and calibrations for you!. Let you and your ears do the settings for your system. I mean, we're all audio and video 'freaks' here right??. Why would you trust a machine to set up your system for you??. At least experiment and find what sounds best for your tastes!. :W

Very true! Every type of automated system I have used came up with a huge fail of calibration. An example the M1 from B&W denon,pioneer,yamaha all think in there automated setup that this is a large speaker. This speaker in my opinion should be crossed over at 100hz and above.

[Tweir]

My 803Ds are driven by 350 watts per channel and they do just fine. It's also the quality of the power. That being said, the woofers on the 803Di(s) should be easier to drive than my 803Ds.

Yes, 350watts and you should be very happy with the sound you are getting :T

[beden1]

I don't think you should let 'machines' and 'audio processors' do your thinking and calibrations for you!. Let you and your ears do the settings for your system. I mean, we're all audio and video 'freaks' here right??. Why would you trust a machine to set up your system for you??. At least experiment and find what sounds best for your tastes!. :W

I have been into this hobby since I was 13 (45 years ago - ouch!). I would have tended to agree with you before I got the Marantz pre-pro with the built-in Audessey system. In this HT system previously, I had a Pioneer Elite receiver and thought their calibration system sucked.

I had been under the impression that speakers like my 804Di(s) should be set to small with a crossover of from 60-80Hz. But, I never liked the sound through the Pioneer Elite with that setting (sounded too thin like someone else commented), and I manually set them to large with a crossover at 60Hz (this receiver would not let it be set lower). At that setting, the system had much more body.

I was amazed when I used the Audessey system in the Marantz, later, that it also set the speakers to large with a similar (40Hz crossover).

In my other HT/stereo system in another house (803Ds and HTM2D), I have since used a similar setting to what the Audessey did for my system with the 804Di, and with similar very pleasing success.

The other thing that I learned through using Audessey, is that it set the distance of my speakers much further away than I had, or had the Pioneer Elite system. I had them measured at actual distance to about 8 feet. Audessey set the speakers at 14+ feet. This setting greatly helped both of my systems. Both are now much more coherent (clear/clarity) and dynamic with greater bass presence and depth.

Live and learn, as old habits are not neccessarily the best just because it's what we always did.

[mpauline]

I am using a Rotel 1080 for the front left and right speakers. It is 200 watts per channel. With the system set to small front and center if I set the crossover to 40Hz only lower bass frequencies will go to the subwoofer correct?

Seems to be WAY more bass for movies when setting the system to small and redirecting the bass but if that is the case why buy the 803Di's over the 805Di's?

I need to keep experimenting! Do bass traps increase the bass in a room or decrease it? Plus they say in the B&W manual for the 803Di's to keep them half a meter from the rear and side walls but does this not decrease the bass?

[Tweir]

I am confused! A couple of you guys have mentioned you set you speaker to large and then have a crossover setting of X. Most gear I have seen if the speaker is set to large then it is full range the only crossover then is for the LFE channel. From my understanding if you set a speaker to small then you gain access to the crossover settings.

[Rod#S]

I am confused! A couple of you guys have mentioned you set you speaker to large and then have a crossover setting of X. Most gear I have seen if the speaker is set to large then it is full range the only crossover then is for the LFE channel. From my understanding if you set a speaker to small then you gain access to the crossover settings.

+1, I was about to post the same thing. I have never come across gear that set a group of speakers to Large and also allowed a crossover for that speaker group to be set (ie. fronts, center, surrounds, surround backs). It's not until you set the speaker group to small where you gain access to the crossover. I have seen settings of Large plus LFE which bassicaly allows for bass duplication i.e the .1 channel goes to the speakers set as large as well as to the subwoofer.

[beden1]

+1, I was about to post the same thing. I have never come across gear that set a group of speakers to Large and also allowed a crossover for that speaker group to be set (ie. fronts, center, surrounds, surround backs). It's not until you set the speaker group to small where you gain access to the crossover. I have seen settings of Large plus LFE which bassicaly allows for bass duplication i.e the .1 channel goes to the speakers set as large as well as to the subwoofer.

My Marantz AV-7005 and the Classe SSP-800 has LFE with the speakers set to large.

[Tweir]

My Marantz AV-7005 and the Classe SSP-800 has LFE with the speakers set to large.

You will always have the option of LFE as this is a dedicated channel that is independent from the other channels. However you can choose where you want this dedicated track to take place in your system for example in your subwoofer or in any of the speakers you select as large with no sub in place or even both in some cases. Some people feel that using the subwoofer only for the dedicated LFE track is underwhelming and then choose to send some of the bass from the other channels to the sub with the LFE track.

[Tweir]

+1, I was about to post the same thing. I have never come across gear that set a group of speakers to Large and also allowed a crossover for that speaker group to be set (ie. fronts, center, surrounds, surround backs). It's not until you set the speaker group to small where you gain access to the crossover. I have seen settings of Large plus LFE which bassicaly allows for bass duplication i.e the .1 channel goes to the speakers set as large as well as to the subwoofer.

I have a client that has 800d's for left and right and the HTM1d for the center and two ASW855's for the LFE channel. He is using three mc1201's for each of the front three speakers and is running them full range plus LFE. Some of the best bass in a home system I have ever heard....

[stuofsci02]

I am using a Rotel 1080 for the front left and right speakers. It is 200 watts per channel. With the system set to small front and center if I set the crossover to 40Hz only lower bass frequencies will go to the subwoofer correct?

Seems to be WAY more bass for movies when setting the system to small and redirecting the bass but if that is the case why buy the 803Di's over the 805Di's?

I need to keep experimenting! Do bass traps increase the bass in a room or decrease it? Plus they say in the B&W manual for the 803Di's to keep them half a meter from the rear and side walls but does this not decrease the bass?

Yep... This is one of the reasons I was saying that in general very good HT results can be had with some of the lesser series speakers and a couple of subs.

Bass traps do not increase the bass in a room.. They help absorb and prevent standing waves which can make bass sound boomy and not tight.

Yes, moving the speakers from boundaries such as walls will reduce the bass output by as much as 3 db, however, this is bass you don't necessarily want as it is artificially generated by boundaries (called bass reinforcement), and is usually boomy. Your speakers will also image better when away from the walls.

In general it is not best to put the speakers equal distance from the back and side walls as the bass reinforcement from the side wall and back wall will be in the same frequency range. It is better to go 1.5 - 2 times the distance from the back walls as from the side walls. So maybe 3 ft from the back walls and 2ft from the side walls. IMO the further from the walls the better. I am 42" from the back walls and 30" from the side walls with speakers at 9 ft apart..

Cheers..

Stuart

[beden1]

You will always have the option of LFE as this is a dedicated channel that is independent from the other channels. However you can choose where you want this dedicated track to take place in your system for example in your subwoofer or in any of the speakers you select as large with no sub in place or even both in some cases. Some people feel that using the subwoofer only for the dedicated LFE track is underwhelming and then choose to send some of the bass from the other channels to the sub with the LFE track.

Having dual subs in the system offsets the sense of "underwhelming" bass. :T

[madmac]

I have been into this hobby since I was 13 (45 years ago - ouch!). I would have tended to agree with you before I got the Marantz pre-pro with the built-in Audessey system. In this HT system previously, I had a Pioneer Elite receiver and thought their calibration system sucked.

I had been under the impression that speakers like my 804Di(s) should be set to small with a crossover of from 60-80Hz. But, I never liked the sound through the Pioneer Elite with that setting (sounded too thin like someone else commented), and I manually set them to large with a crossover at 60Hz (this receiver would not let it be set lower). At that setting, the system had much more body.

I was amazed when I used the Audessey system in the Marantz, later, that it also set the speakers to large with a similar (40Hz crossover).

In my other HT/stereo system in another house (803Ds and HTM2D), I have since used a similar setting to what the Audessey did for my system with the 804Di, and with similar very pleasing success.

The other thing that I learned through using Audessey, is that it set the distance of my speakers much further away than I had, or had the Pioneer Elite system. I had them measured at actual distance to about 8 feet. Audessey set the speakers at 14+ feet. This setting greatly helped both of my systems. Both are now much more coherent (clear/clarity) and dynamic with greater bass presence and depth.

Live and learn, as old habits are not neccessarily the best just because it's what we always did.

At a 40hz corssover, you are practically almost running the speakers 'large' whether or not you have processor set that way. Another danger is that 40hz is the typical 'standing wave' frequency for many rooms which could create bass problems if you use that freq crossover. In terms of the settings for speaker distance, the distance should be the correct one, not an incorrect one fabricated by the processor. The rear channel speakers are especially critical when it comes to this distance. The whole speaker distance calibration thing is assure that the sound from all 5.1 channels (sub included) arrives at the listener at the same time. Therefore, the correct measurements are critical for proper home theater and multi channel music. The distance to listener settings other than that have absolutely no baring on the 'quality' of sound that comes out of the speakers at all.

I had my system set at 60hz for awhile and when I switched it back to 80hz, the difference in good, accurate, rolling bass response was striking!. However, I'm sure various systems might work better with other settings.

I am also a big fan of using 2 subs. I find this evens out the bass response and the bass output becomes much less 'localized' using 2. :T

[beden1]

At a 40hz corssover, you are practically almost running the speakers 'large' whether or not you have processor set that way. Another danger is that 40hz is the typical 'standing wave' frequency for many rooms which could create bass problems if you use that freq crossover. In terms of the settings for speaker distance, the distance should be the correct one, not an incorrect one fabricated by the processor. The rear channel speakers are especially critical when it comes to this distance. The whole speaker distance calibration thing is assure that the sound from all 5.1 channels (sub included) arrives at the listener at the same time. Therefore, the correct measurements are critical for proper home theater and multi channel music. The distance to listener settings other than that have absolutely no baring on the 'quality' of sound that comes out of the speakers at all.

I had my system set at 60hz for awhile and when I switched it back to 80hz, the difference in good, accurate, rolling bass response was striking!. However, I'm sure various systems might work better with other settings.

I am also a big fan of using 2 subs. I find this evens out the bass response and the bass output becomes much less 'localized' using 2. :T

Just try it and listen to the difference. I was also skeptical until I heard the final result. Now I really wish that my Classe SSP-800 incorporated Audessey.