New B&W serie 800 !!!

[KyaDawn]

Besides, I don't trust the guys at The Absolute Sound as far as I can throw 'em, especially Robert Harely.

Funny you should mention him. Yesterday, I was at my local Rockport dealer hoping to audition either the Arrakis or the Altair, but unfortunately, they only had the Aquila in the shop, which is Rockport's third best speaker after the above two. Despite being only a three driver 3-way speaker, they were listed for $50K. Having sat down and listened to tracks from around 7 of my reference CDs, I was pretty disappointed in general. It had a very thin mid-range, harsh in the treble and prone to audible distortion, and very light bass despite having a 13" side-mounted woofer. Out of all the speakers I've listened in the past week, including the KEF 207/2 and 205/2, the Vivid Audio K1, and the YG Acoustics Anat Reference II Professional, this and the 205/2 were my least favorite speakers. At least the 205/2 was priced at $7K, this speaker costs 7 times as much and offered comparable performance. Room set-up might have been an issue as the room was relatively small, around 200 sq. ft, and for some reason the speakers were toe'd in so that they were firing directly at the listener position. Still, it left much to be desired.

So having gone through that and feeling somewhat puzzled as I've read good things about Rockports which is why I decided to search them out, I looked on the web about the Aquila and see Robert Harley saying he was "completely blown away" by them and that the "midrange had a resolution, palpability, and immediacy that bordered on the spooky, and the treble was extraordinary quick and clean". This was in fact, quite the opposite of my own listening experience.

To be fair, the only other "review" (Harley's opinion was more of a CES impression) I could find on the Aquila was in the Stereo Times, in which the reviewer claimed, "In 35 years of pursuing audio Nirvana, the Rockport Aquila stands alone at as the single most musically and technically impressive audio component I've had the privilege to experience."

Which really re-affirms my belief that one has to listen for themselves, and that many of these "reviews" so full of hyperbole and unreal praise are nothing more than hot-air hype with which you should be very, very suspicious.

[KyaDawn]

I can't imagine that people can make a good comparison (on the same day) of 802Ds in room A with electronics A and that accurately compare them to 802DIs in room B with electronics B (probably playing different music). Then throw in a year between and I REALLY can't imagine that people can make a good comparison.

I believe I heard somewhere that reliable aural memory only lasts for a few minutes so you may have something there. Then again it was a while since I heard that so not sure if I remember correctly. :B

[sikoniko]

That's an interesting observation. I was quite surprised to hear my dealer say basically the same thing when we were discussing the 802Di's. Even though they won't get them in for a few months, he and his fellow colleagues has heard the new series and he didn't think there was a significant change to the already "D" models. He did think the 805 improved substantially with the diamond tweeter, and that overall, it has a "sweeter" sound and has lost some of the "metallic" flavor in the treble (using them as surrounds, I don't really notice it myself).

If he was a better salesman :B, he would have told me there was a significant upgrade with the 802Di and would I like to consider trading in my 802Ds? Alas, what he said was quite the opposite so I tend to believe he does feel that way.

I did ask him whether he would be able to arrange a A/B comparison of the two models and he said if they still have stock of the old series when they get in the new, which seems unlikely, but if they do, I would jump at the chance to do the comparison.

I think that while to some it may seem sublte, the new 802diamond will be a more balanced speaker than its predocessor - thus acheiving a sound similar to the previous 800D (expansive sound stage), but in a smaller form-factor, better price range, and lacking only slightly in bass response and depth.

[AV-OCD]

Tim,

It is a most difficult hobby to try to obtain one's audio nirvana, particularly when just about everything we do in life is a compromise. I got the audio bug back in the early 1970's, and have often felt like it was a love/hate relationship. Like you are looking to do now in finding a system that delivers the best bang for the buck, I have always ventured to do while building my numerous systems in the past.

In the end, what makes me satisfied, is being able to put together a system that sounds "nearly" as good as compared to a friend of mine, for example, who spent nearly $300,000 for his system (compared to about the $40,000 that I've spent on the system I've been trying to flush out for the past several years).

The internet also contributes to our frustrations, IMO. We keep reading these forums about people upgrading their speakers or other components (or about manufacturer upgrades), and our own components start to lose their attractiveness.

This time around, I started setting up a base system from scratch that I knew was a compromise, but was not expensive to replace each component. I then focused on each component starting with the speakers, and once I felt comfortable with those, I moved to the pre-amp/processor, source players, and then the amps. As it started to flush out, I was able to identify where my weaknesses existed, and then focused on each component individually, until I found a suitable replacement solution. My last stage has been to work on the the largest compromise in room acoustics, a process that is evolving.

One of the best advice on this forum that I read, is for us to focus more on the music than on any weaknesses in our systems. In the end, I think this is where we all get the most enjoyment. We all need to remind ourselves that this hobby is full of compromises, and that no system can ever replace a live performance.

Good luck with assembling your new system.

Benden -

Thanks for your thoughts and experiences.

The process you describe in paragraph four is the right way to build a system, and it is the way I've always done it in the past. But I have to say that when I did have a stable system and started trying out different amps and CD players, I heard either very little difference or no difference and came to the conclusion, that for me the differences were not worth the trouble or the cost. I *think* the Classe prepro was smoother and less digital sounding than the Lex, but again I can't say for sure. Heck, I may find that the Denon AVR that I have on order does in fact sound inferior to my memory of the Classe, and if that is the case I may go back to the Classe or try to find another solution. I seem to remember the NAD Master Series sounding very similar in character to the Classe.

I know that nothing is perfect, but for me there is still the process of eliminating those flaws that are distracting. Usually these are the additive colorations in the system, like harshness, sibilance, boxiness, etc. The subtractive "flaws", like a loss of resolution, or less than pinpoint imaging are things that I can easily look past. This will be different for all of us,

[AV-OCD]

I can't imagine that people can make a good comparison (on the same day) of 802Ds in room A with electronics A and that accurately compare them to 802DIs in room B with electronics B (probably playing different music). Then throw in a year between and I REALLY can't imagine that people can make a good comparison.

Just my 2 cents

Dave

A very valid argument, though in my experience, this only applies to trying discern very small differences between audio systems or aspects that are less tangible, like system resoltion or soundstage. I have a selection of about 20 reference songs that I know inside and out, and I've used these same tracks for every audition I've done over the past 2 years so I'm intimately familiar with what these sound like.

The character I heard in the 803D and the Di was the equivilent of something like red-push on a TV. When you see it, it is easy to pick out, as flesh tones take on an unnatural hue. It doesn't matter if it has been a year or more, that sort of deviation from nuetral is undeniable. On the other hand, if you were to ask me if a TV I looked at a year ago had better or worse detail than one viewed today, I doubt I could give a definitive answer.

[AV-OCD]

Which really re-affirms my belief that one has to listen for themselves, and that many of these "reviews" so full of hyperbole and unreal praise are nothing more than hot-air hype with which you should be very, very suspicious.

Spot on.

I've been burned more than a few times by buying into reviewer opinion (which I think are often biased and less than truthful). I even went so far as to find every possible review on a given speaker and cross-referenced all of the comments against each of them, and I still found that the speakers ultimately sounded much different than described in the reviews.

For instance, on paper, and in the reviews, you would think that the KEF Reference speakers are as close to theorectical perfection as you can get, yet, I thought they sounded very nasal and harsh through the midrange.

It's sad really, that as consumers we have no reliable source for info on the products we have interest in. My dream, if I were to ever win the lottery, is to convert a warehouse to an audio equipment test facility. I would buy all of the equipment outright so that there would be no obilgation to the manufacturer and the facilities would be open to the public. We'd run a full gammut of tests on each piece and collect subjectiive opinions from a variety of audio enthusiasts.

I love this hobby, but I'm tired of having to wade through all of the marketing hype and flat out lies used to sell what's out there.

[beden1]

Spot on.

I've been burned more than a few times by buying into reviewer opinion (which I think are often biased and less than truthful). I even went so far as to find every possible review on a given speaker and cross-referenced all of the comments against each of them, and I still found that the speakers ultimately sounded much different than described in the reviews.

For instance, on paper, and in the reviews, you would think that the KEF Reference speakers are as close to theorectical perfection as you can get, yet, I thought they sounded very nasal and harsh through the midrange.

It's sad really, that as consumers we have no reliable source for info on the products we have interest in. My dream, if I were to ever win the lottery, is to convert a warehouse to an audio equipment test facility. I would buy all of the equipment outright so that there would be no obilgation to the manufacturer and the facilities would be open to the public. We'd run a full gammut of tests on each piece and collect subjectiive opinions from a variety of audio enthusiasts.

I love this hobby, but I'm tired of having to wade through all of the marketing hype and flat out lies used to sell what's out there.

This is to point where internet forums can sway people's thinking into a direction that may not be correct for their real needs and/or desires.

I have followed your posts with interest during the past couple of years. You have presented yourself as one who is knowledgable regarding audio equipment and systems, and you have also presented seemingly very compelling reasoning in support of your learned experience in this area. I would also venture to say that there are some who also follow your posts, who have made decisions on their purchases based on your numerous opinions on these matters.

What I now find disconcerting, is you are now saying you find little differences in equipment from the various manufacturers of component equipment, as well, receivers may also be the same or very similar in the end result. And this, after you have regularly voiced strong opinion and support for equipment from manufacturers like Classe, as in your opinion, are what people could/should aspire to for their own systems.

But now you're confused too, and starting all over again. So, I think it's fair to say that there are more opinions that all of us readers should be wary of, and not just those of the professional reviewers.

Just another example of trusting your own ears and gut feeling, regardless of how many scientific facts someone may throw out in support of their "knowledge and expertise".

[sikoniko]

But now you're confused too, and starting all over again. So, I think it's fair to say that there are more opinions that all of us readers should be wary of, and not just those of the professional reviewers.

In the movie Imagine, about John Lennon, he is asked about the lyrics of the song 'Revolution' (the rock version) where he says "when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out, in. He is asked why he said count me out, then added "in". his response in the interview is that he thinks that he wants to be counted out, but he's human and uncertain, and open to the possibility that he might change his mind...

The closest quote I could find is:
"On one version I said "Count me in" about violence, in or out, because I wasn't sure."

[beden1]

In the movie Imagine, about John Lennon, he is asked about the lyrics of the song 'Revolution' (the rock version) where he says "when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out, in. He is asked why he said count me out, then added "in". his response in the interview is that he thinks that he wants to be counted out, but he's human and uncertain, and open to the possibility that he might change his mind...

The closest quote I could find is:
"On one version I said "Count me in" about violence, in or out, because I wasn't sure."

The nature of humans is to evolve and yes, change their minds. But, it is also human nature to try and rely on the advise of others, particularly when that guidance is seemingly based on a learned and experienced voice.

Individuals tend to be persuaded by those who they personally view have gained the acceptance of others, like following the pack, sort-of-speak. Unfortunately, and in this case, it may be more the "blind leading the blind"!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1139308

Reading this journal about his system, I find this statement interesting as well as telling, as these speakers are also going/gone.

"I've been reluctant to post here because I went through so many failed attempts at finding speakers that I could live with before the WB's, that I wasn't sure if these would stay. Prior to this, I'd be all full of speaker lust for my latest speaker acquisition, but then two months later there would be something that drove me up the wall with their sound. I'm happy to say that I've owned the WBs since November 2008, so it is safe to say that these are here to stay . . . for a while anyway."
__________________

[AV-OCD]

This is to point where internet forums can sway people's thinking into a direction that may not be correct for their real needs and/or desires.

I have followed your posts with interest during the past couple of years. You have presented yourself as one who is knowledgable regarding audio equipment and systems, and you have also presented seemingly very compelling reasoning in support of your learned experience in this area. I would also venture to say that there are some who also follow your posts, who have made decisions on their purchases based on your numerous opinions on these matters.

What I now find disconcerting, is you are now saying you find little differences in equipment from the various manufacturers of component equipment, as well, receivers may also be the same or very similar in the end result. And this, after you have regularly voiced strong opinion and support for equipment from manufacturers like Classe, as in your opinion, are what people could/should aspire to for their own systems.

But now you're confused too, and starting all over again. So, I think it's fair to say that there are more opinions that all of us readers should be wary of, and not just those of the professional reviewers.

Just another example of trusting your own ears and gut feeling, regardless of how many scientific facts someone may throw out in support of their "knowledge and expertise".

As sikoniko so eloquently points out, I am, like many, a flawed and complicated human being. ops:

I never meant to position myself as an authority on all-matters related to audio, I only sought out to get as close to the truth as I could. Where I ended up was with just about as much uncertainty and as many questions as when I started. It wasn’t a total loss though, as some things did crystallize, at least for me. That is that the recording, the speakers, proper set-up and the room all have an undeniable affect on sound quality. Front end gear I’m still uncertain about because my testing methodology was not stringent enough. I can say this though, I have never heard a piece of front end gear make as profound a difference in sound quality as the speaker, the recording or the room. On the other hand I know more than a few people who would disagree.

For that matter, I apologize if I gave the impression to you or anyone else that the Classe gear was some sort of quantum leap in sound quality. I think it brought a level of refinement to the sound of my system, but I can get a bit carried away in the moment and may have put it more strongly than that. I certainly don’t think that anyone would be disappointed with the sound of the Classe, I just can’t say for certain if similar sound quality can’t be had for less.

Anyway, you’re right, don’t take my word for it, go out and experience it for yourself. I only recommend that you do so with a healthy dose of skepticism and try not to be impulsive (spoken from experience).

[Orb]

I have been following Tim's experience from the very beginning and also chatted over PM for quite some time.
While this is speculation, as far as I am concerned Tim did find the system in the end that met the requirements for the long term.
However IMO Tim has the audio interest bug pretty deep and even when a system is pretty spot on, its always interesting to see how other systems compare.
Audio diversity is so large and if you are willing to experience and learn, then changing equipment will be a fact of life, the challenge though is finding a price bracket you can live within and enjoy experimenting with products.
Hence why I feel Tim's next step is to find the level of performance equating to his WB/Classe setup but at a more competitive price.

This is for two reasons; 1st is experience and knowledge to see how good you can get your system bang/bucks, and 2nd as I mentioned that a more price competitive system means it is more viable to explore different hardware and audio implementations.
Maybe this is the reason some become audio journalists (the good ones), they too are deeply curious and enjoy listening and comparing/experiencing many different products.

Cheers
Orb

[Orb]

As sikoniko so eloquently points out, I am, like many, a flawed and complicated human being. ops:

I never meant to position myself as an authority on all-matters related to audio, I only sought out to get as close to the truth as I could. Where I ended up was with just about as much uncertainty and as many questions as when I started. It wasn’t a total loss though, as some things did crystallize, at least for me. That is that the recording, the speakers, proper set-up and the room all have an undeniable affect on sound quality. Front end gear I’m still uncertain about because my testing methodology was not stringent enough. I can say this though, I have never heard a piece of front end gear make as profound a difference in sound quality as the speaker, the recording or the room. On the other hand I know more than a few people who would disagree.

For that matter, I apologize if I gave the impression to you or anyone else that the Classe gear was some sort of quantum leap in sound quality. I think it brought a level of refinement to the sound of my system, but I can get a bit carried away in the moment and may have put it more strongly than that. I certainly don’t think that anyone would be disappointed with the sound of the Classe, I just can’t say for certain if similar sound quality can’t be had for less.

Anyway, you’re right, don’t take my word for it, go out and experience it for yourself. I only recommend that you do so with a healthy dose of skepticism and try not to be impulsive (spoken from experience).

I do not think there is any need to apologize.
Your journey to begin with is helpful to everyone, I do tend to think some of those early purchases did highlight how as listeners but more importantly as purchasers how the bias process skews are judgement (and this affects us all as I have seen it in many who post, has affected my earlier purchases as well).
A good example is reading posters auditions, what is interesting is in most cases a poster will describe the good and the bad about a product, however in a way its kinda funny but when it comes to the decision to purchase everything mentioned about negatives/niggles seem be forgotten, only for say 3-6months down the line a dissatisfaction to set in due to those niggles
Its a story for all of us; we are balanced in the listening it seems and yet when it comes to the purchase we skew the judgement to what we liked not necessarily basing the decision on all factors including niggles.

I hope this post has not offended anyone, because it affects us all and at some point I would place a bet we all have done this.
The challenge is learning from this, whether our own experience or the process of experience in others.
Cheers
Orb

[AV-OCD]

The nature of humans is to evolve and yes, change their minds. But, it is also human nature to try and rely on the advise of others, particularly when that guidance is seemingly based on a learned and experienced voice.

Individuals tend to be persuaded by those who they personally view have gained the acceptance of others, like following the pack, sort-of-speak. Unfortunately, and in this case, it may be more the "blind leading the blind"!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1139308

Reading this journal about his system, I find this statement interesting as well as telling, as these speakers are also going/gone.

"I've been reluctant to post here because I went through so many failed attempts at finding speakers that I could live with before the WB's, that I wasn't sure if these would stay. Prior to this, I'd be all full of speaker lust for my latest speaker acquisition, but then two months later there would be something that drove me up the wall with their sound. I'm happy to say that I've owned the WBs since November 2008, so it is safe to say that these are here to stay . . . for a while anyway."
__________________

I'm not an ego-minded person, though I do take some offense to your "blind leading the blind" reference. Again, it was never my intent to lead anyone, rather I hoped that readers would see the big picture painted by my journaling. The lesson to be learned from my personal journey is that *you* have to find what it right for *you*.

But you're right, many people are either looking for advice on something specific, or they want the "expert" to pick out their gear for them. I'll occasionally get PMs asking me about this or that speaker or component, and my answer is always the same. I'll describe my experience with that model so that they can listen for those qualities and decide for themselves if they A) hear what hear, and B) like or dislike the speaker for those reasons. These inquisitions are always followed with general advice on speaker auditioning and a recommendation that they audition *everything* within their budget in their area.

I realize that while I may find a speaker harsh or offensive in some way, another person my find that same speaker to be exciting or precise for the same reasons. "Buy product X because it kills everything else" will never leave my lips.

[Relentless]

Honestly, I've never heard significant differences from well engineered front-end gear, so I'm going back to a good quality Denon AVR.

I know if I switched out my EVO gear for a Denon AVR in my system you would hear a significant difference running the 800D's. Now with 805D and my subs I still feel that the Denon would not be as good but would have to listen for my self. I have a 5910 and everyone praises its 2ch analog section but it is sub par to Meridian, Ayre CDP's. Don't get me wrong, when I had to send the G08 in for repair I could not stand the 5910 for 2ch at first but got used to it and it was ok until I got the Meridian back and then I heard what I was missing. Just another opinion for people to weigh.

[wettou]

As sikoniko so eloquently points out, I am, like many, a flawed and complicated human being. ops:

For that matter, I apologize if I gave the impression to you or anyone else that the Classe gear was some sort of quantum leap in sound quality.

Don't sweat it this all subjective anyway no one and I mean no one has been able to transform into mathematics equation what good sound is like.

Until we can reproduce our ears and brain and trillions of variations to design equipment we all will have different opinion and what might sound good to you might sound ok to some one else just like cooking it is art :T

[AV-OCD]

Don't sweat it this all subjective anyway no one and I mean no one has been able to transform into mathematics equation what good sound is like.

Until we can reproduce our ears and brain and trillions of variations to design equipment we all will have different opinion and what might sound good to you might sound ok to some one else just like cooking it is art :T

8)

[KyaDawn]

But now you're confused too, and starting all over again. So, I think it's fair to say that there are more opinions that all of us readers should be wary of, and not just those of the professional reviewers.

Just another example of trusting your own ears and gut feeling, regardless of how many scientific facts someone may throw out in support of their "knowledge and expertise".

Well it's true that we should always take opinions, particularly in the world of audio, with a large grain of salt. There's no substitute for one's own tastes and experiences, and reviews and opinions from any source should really be used as a tool or as ideas to help us make decisions in terms of what products to consider for ourselves.

The difference between Tim's opinions and those of "professional reviewers", however, is that there is no financial incentive or bias for Tim to offer his. Professional reviewers, on the other hand, are influenced by advertisers, favors, gifts, friendly relations with companies, etc., and beyond that, a publication needs to always create excitement for the products they cover in order attract readers. If, for example, publications start writing that there's no need to look beyond BDP-83/SE for an universal disc player (which may be in large quite true), then they eliminate the need for the existence of their publication. They always need to "hawk" new products, though some publications take this need to the extreme, and as I pointed out earlier, can be quite untrustworthy.

I think with Tim or any of us, any of the opinions expressed should be, by default, taken as a very personal opinion, and not necessarily applicable to anyone else's situation. While myself, I have heard through A/B testing a large difference between amps, such as when I demoed the Classe Omega Omicron, CA-M400 and Rotel RB-1092 back-back in the same room using the same 802D set-up, I can respect that Tim may feel differently. Personally I run my 805S as surrounds using a Denon 4308 to power them (while the Denon serves mostly as a pre-pro for my 802Ds), and even with the timbre differences of the 805S and 802D, they match quite well together despite being drive by different amps.

If anything, I think Tim's experiences highlight the simple truth that the road to audio "nirvana" can be quite bumpy, and that there might really be no "perfect" anything, whether it's a speaker, amp, CD player, interconnects, etc. What I do appreciate in reading Tim's experiences is that he's had not only the desire (as many of us do), but the will and initiative to actually go out on that road and attempt to find that nirvana, even if it means admitting to himself that his initial choice may not have been correct, and willing to starting from scratch time and time again. He has quite literally and figuratively "put his money where his mouth is", and thus, I think he's more than entitled to his opinions, as we all are.

[AV-OCD]

Thanks Kya.

I'd just like to say a couple of things, and then maybe we can get back to the subject of this thread.

First, I'm not "starting over" because I was dissatisfied with the sound of the WB / Classe system. It was the best I've ever had in my room. I've heard better during some in-store demos, but for me, my last system was top-notch and I achieved the goal I had set out to do. And that was to assemble a system that looks as good as it sounds and a system that represented my love for this hobby.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, my motivation for disassembling the Classe / WB system is multifaceted. It started with some frustration with the rather buggy operation of the SSP-800, the realization that I don't get the opportunity to listen to music as much as I would like, a suspicion that I could get close or possibly even equal sound quality from less expensive gear, and the realization that even with my limited time for listening, I still like to try out new gear. Whew!

Lastly, I'm not here to challenge anyone else's experiences. If yours and mine differ, it just makes me that much more curious about yours. And through conversation, I would hope that I might glean something from your perspective that I apply to my future endeavors.

For instance, Kya, you say that you heard a "large" difference between the Omnicron and the CAM400. How would you describe that difference? It could be that when I did my amp comparison that I was focused on the wrong aspect of the sound to hear a difference.

[alebonau]

wow this wheel sure goes around hehe

good luck in your search Tim, may you find whatever it is you seek. No doubt if past anything to go by this wont be the last station

and in any regard as they say a change is as good as a holiday. I dont think you need to appologise or explain anything to anyone. Be they mystified or somehow wronged by your change of tact - not sure why that would be anyways ?

I'm sure many more things to explore and discover, why hold yourself back.

I myself still have some small soft spot for these 805D's so look forward to seing what you end up partnering them up with and what you end up finding.

ps I've heard my nad masterseries m3 integrated and m5 cd/sacd player that have in the bedroom system doign a wonderfull job with the 805s. do wonder in some little way how they might pan out with the diamonds !

[AV-OCD]

Hey Al -

You and everyone else in this thread will be the first to read my impressions of the 805Di, if and when I finally get the damn things.

As for my front end, it seems that we will have something in common, since I've decided to try out the Denon AVR5308. Now that Audyessy Pro offers an adjustable target curve and dynamic EQ, I think I can get the results from that tech that I'm after. How do you like your Denon front end? Do you have the prepro or the AVR? Did you compare it to anything before making the decision to go with it?

[KyaDawn]

Thanks Kya.

No problem.

For instance, Kya, you say that you heard a "large" difference between the Omnicron and the CAM400. How would you describe that difference? It could be that when I did my amp comparison that I was focused on the wrong aspect of the sound to hear a difference.

The large difference that I heard was more between the Classe models and the Rotel. The Classe Omega Omicron and CA-M400 were virtually identical timbre-wise, though as I remember the Omicron seemed to have a bit more "weight" in the overall balance.

Between the two Classe amps and the Rotel, however, there was a world of difference. The Classe sounded much more "round", and the soundstage seemed larger. The Rotel sounded leaner, with a smaller soundstage. The Classes also sounded more open, less restricted than the Rotel, while the Rotel sounded a bit "digital" compared to the "analog" sound of the Classes. The difference was quite apparent. The Classes also seemed to offer an overall improved tonal balance, particularly with a more voluptuous bass, and thicker mid-range. Perhaps the one thing that I liked better with the Rotel was that the "lean-ness" seemed to reduce or eliminate the "mid-bass hump" that the 802Ds often gets accused of having. And while the Classe offered more "thump" to the bass, the Rotel's was faster and tight.

To be honest, there was such a big difference between the amps that for awhile I wondered if the dealer on purposely did something to "cripple" the Rotel, as he knew I was considering all three. I ended choosing the Rotel because of space limitations in my room, since the Rotel can fit neatly in my BDI cabinet, and being a Class D amp, it wouldn't have any overheating issues in a closed enclosure. The Classe amps would have necessitated that I use some sort of vertical rack instead for my other components, which wouldn't work in my set-up as I also run a projector in the room.

Having taken the Rotel home, it seems like it sounds much better than when I auditioned it. I'm not sure if it's because I've grown accustomed to it or that I don't have the Classe amps to compare them with in my home, but it doesn't have the same "lean" sound as I remember during the audition. I also have calibrated my system with Audyssey, and tweaked it further to accommodate my personal tastes, so that may have a large part to due with it.

[AV-OCD]

Kya -

Thanks for the details.

I did come away with a different result when I compared a pair of CAM-400's to a pair of Bel Canto Ref 1000's (these use similar Ice Power modules as in the Rotel). I did the comparison in my home connected to a Lexicon Prepro and Revel Studio 2 speakers. While in the end, I found that these two very different amps sounded very close to one another, the days spent listening to them was a roller coaster of this one sounding better than that one and back again. I found that when I thought I had dialed into something one amp was doing better, I would switch to the other amp, and I would hear the same thing. The whole experience was maddening. I listened in particular to the bass between the two, because the Ice Amps are supposed to have better than average control down low. I didn't hear it. I'm not saying that the two sounded identical, but the differences were so small that I could see living with either one quite easily.

Your comment about the bass sounding tighter on the Rotel reminds me of an experience I had when I first installed my Velodyne DD15 sub. Setting the level of the sub even just a couple of dB too high made the bass sound like it was plodding behind the rest of the music, but once I had the sub calibrated properly the bass snapped into place. The Velo was still not as tight as the JL I have now, but it was interesting to have that experience because it showed me that there is some psychological phenomenon at play -- that the bass sounded "slow" when it was just too high in level relative to the rest of the musical signal.

I can also related to your comment that the Classe sounded smoother and less digital, but not in regards to the amp. I had that experience with the SSP-800. Though again, this was a subtle change and one that I wouldn't expect the average joe to even notice.

I don't know how your dealer could have fixed the demo, other than possibly running the Rotel amp cold (no warm-up time). I've heard qualities similar to what you describe with my system at start-up, which go away within about 30 mins. You might try, just for fun, unplugging your amp over night and listening to it the next day. Putting it in standby may not work for this test, since there is still current flowing through most components in standby.

Either way, I'm glad that the Rotel ended up sounding better (for whatever reason) in your home. Those CAMs take up a lot of space.

Frankly, if I did like the ones I bought (off Agon), I don't know where I would have put them either.

These are the CAMs behind my center console. A temporary set-up during my audition.

[alebonau]

Hey Al -

You and everyone else in this thread will be the first to read my impressions of the 805Di, if and when I finally get the damn things.

As for my front end, it seems that we will have something in common, since I've decided to try out the Denon AVR5308. Now that Audyessy Pro offers an adjustable target curve and dynamic EQ, I think I can get the results from that tech that I'm after. How do you like your Denon front end? Do you have the prepro or the AVR? Did you compare it to anything before making the decision to go with it?

look forward to reading your thoughts on the 805 diamonds tim

congrats on the 5308 ! its called a avc-a1hd where I am. As the AVR version of the denon avp, from what I've heard and seen of it I dont believe being the flagship product it gives much away at all to the avp on the processing side. And boy what an AVR !



its power amp stage is really quite something with decent power supply and good power reserves which I suspect will do jsut fine for the bookshelf speaker you intend to run.

I have the denon avp myself and absolutely love it. something will have for many years I suspect. I have it partnered with the denon 4010 blu-ray universal which makes for a nice match. I used to run a denon 4308 previously (first denon avr/processor ever owned) something that I ran as a processor and was very impressed and pleased by. bought the avp on the back of that. Have heard it compared to a few things since - classe included and something quite proud off to own.

I'm with you in that with processing getting past a certain point theres not that much in it. perhaps some character and other differences in subtlety but no heaven or earth chalk and cheese type differences I dont think between the brands that some make out

[Orb]

Kya -

Thanks for the details.

.....While in the end, I found that these two very different amps sounded very close to one another, the days spent listening to them was a roller coaster of this one sounding better than that one and back again....

Ah that reminds me of when I decided to use both a MF KW550 Integrated and my lovely Chord Electronics SPM1200E (back when had the 803s and CM1s).
Quite clearly for certain albums the MF was better, while on majority of other things the Chord was.

I think that is something we tend to forget and expect one product to be better in all ways, when in reality music recordings are so diverse the probability is that each product will be good and weaker on some albums.

In the end I got fedup trying to change the KW550 around (crazy weight), so sold that and just stayed with the Chord that for my taste was better on around 80-85% of albums.

Now if only I can find a product combining the strengths of the MF with everything the Chord can do :P
Alternatively would be nice if all amps were ergonomic so to make it easier to own two hehe.

Cheers
Orbs

[AV-OCD]

Ah that reminds me of when I decided to use both a MF KW550 Integrated and my lovely Chord Electronics SPM1200E (back when had the 803s and CM1s).
Quite clearly for certain albums the MF was better, while on majority of other things the Chord was.

I think that is something we tend to forget and expect one product to be better in all ways, when in reality music recordings are so diverse the probability is that each product will be good and weaker on some albums.

In the end I got fedup trying to change the KW550 around (crazy weight), so sold that and just stayed with the Chord that for my taste was better on around 80-85% of albums.

Now if only I can find a product combining the strengths of the MF with everything the Chord can do :P
Alternatively would be nice if all amps were ergonomic so to make it easier to own two hehe.

Cheers
Orbs

Can we add cheap while still being well built to that list?

Yes, you woke up another memory for me too. When I first got into the high-end, I niavely thought that better gear would make all things sound better. Boy was I wrong. Though, I have to admit, that WB/Classe combo was always listenable, even on tracks that sound like complete dreck on other top-of-the-line gear.

[style]

Hallo TIm,

For the power-ampli parts the Classe have a great sound: this is sure
You had "Lexi" too and from what I have always heart is a "hard" piece too.
Lexicon is a brand high level that have made a lot of pre/pro , power ampli ,..for the HT. and with success. (logi7 & Co....) other Big name in 2 channel dont have believe in the HT = no $$ to invest for a pre/pro and co.!

Denon work with HT before 30years? or more... and is / have experience but the quality is not the same!.
Like you wrote the room, a treated or semi treated, give more as a power ampli from I dont know what for ampli from 20k.$$$$.

the combo with the SSP800 is a good and really HighEnd choice but you can go the Denon or Yamaha or?? other HT receiver as pre/pro and use the Classe to power the all.
I dont have never listen your system = is not easy say this is better or I PREFER this one alternativ,, the other, the other(2).....
In this hobby like Brook wrotes you can make a system from what is your taste! and the magazines are full of possibilty...

Personaly try the Anthem D2 will be a great experience: in the HT is sure at the level from Classe / Lexicon / and the "called small brand like yamaha-Denon...."
the Anthem with the D2 have all the EQ, micro &co. inside. In Switzerland the D2 have the same price from the SSP800. (and is possible pay the D2 more as the SSP)

if your taste is the bluray and concert with the full digital way ok, but if you like a 2 chn. system Classe or other big brand give you more & more satisfaction!
the Krell Evo in a "acoutics room" with the B&W give you reallly plaesure.
(see Relentless)

In every case I will keep the SSP800: is a processor for a lot of years!, always actuall vs. the Denon the go change the modell, the Top of the line too, every 6 months!!!

2. possitbilty/variant:
a. the room full acoustic treaded at 100% professional!!!!
b. "play" with the last gears available the the room-correction.

Classe with the Auditoruim is the top! ($$$$!)

Denon/Yamaha/Anthem and a semi traeted room and room EQ correction
give you what do YOU will: more as the Classe!

I hope you can understand my mail....

Style

OT: The 804Di black coming end next week! :W

[wettou]

The difference between Tim's opinions and those of "professional reviewers", however, is that there is no financial incentive or bias for Tim to offer his. Professional reviewers, on the other hand, are influenced by advertisers, favors, gifts, friendly relations with companies, etc., and beyond that, a publication needs to always create excitement for the products they cover in order attract readers. If, for example, publications start writing that there's no need to look beyond BDP-83/SE for an universal disc player (which may be in large quite true), then they eliminate the need for the existence of their publication. They always need to "hawk" new products, though some publications take this need to the extreme, and as I pointed out earlier, can be quite untrustworthy.

I think with Tim or any of us, any of the opinions expressed should be, by default, taken as a very personal opinion, and not necessarily applicable to anyone else's situation. .....What I do appreciate in reading Tim's experiences is that he's had not only the desire (as many of us do), but the will and initiative to actually go out on that road and attempt to find that nirvana, even if it means admitting to himself that his initial choice may not have been correct, and willing to starting from scratch time and time again. He has quite literally and figuratively "put his money where his mouth is", and thus, I think he's more than entitled to his opinions, as we all are.

Very well said :T There is no audio nirvana, may be after a glass of Chateau Mouton Rothschild Pauillac 1995 or after going to the symphony hall like the Wall Disney Concert Hall http://www.laphil.com/ :B

I could not agree more that 99% of the rags are not objective at all since they all receive fat pay checks from companies to advertise their products!!
I like to read them and look at the pictures and get practical ideas

Also I remember a publication that did not take advertisement to survive and unfortunately is not longer around they said

"Things have changed

Today, magazines are big business and the entertainment business is the business they’re in. Their revenue comes from selling advertising, and the amount that they can charge for their advertising space is based on circulation. Expanding circulation requires broadening appeal to a wider audience of both readers and advertisers. Are high standards and broad appeal mutually exclusive? Is a frog waterproof? As the field narrows, with less prominent publications either folding their tents or merging together, we are left with a high-end press that publishes what is essentially advertising copy for a few high-end manufacturers. Nothing they review ever performs poorly and no writer mentions that charging $30,000 or more for a pair of loudspeakers is simply obscene.

We get rave reviews of $20,000 speaker cables and $50,000 amplifiers that produce 3 watts of power. We are shown pictures of half-million-dollar home theater systems in the estates of movie producers because it’s entertaining. But what if we want some information about the products that we might really want to purchase for our own homes with money that most of us have to earn.

Today’s magazine reviews are used as sales tools but they offer little information of real value. A typical review begins by paraphrasing the manufacturer’s advertising claims without questioning whether these claims have any validity. Then the reviewer rephrases the instruction manual with a description of how the product works. Wise consumers can obtain this information with greater accuracy directly from the manufacturer at no cost. What value has the magazine review added?

The magazines are written by amateurs for the most part. Most of the other writers offer equipment reviews as a sideline job which allows them to play with expensive equipment for free. They may have less experience setting up hi-fi systems than you do. What value do their subjective opinions have?

Stifling Progress

New manufacturers can’t get a foothold in the marketplace without a magazine review. Dealers simply won’t try to sell a product that has not received a positive review, yet Stereophile, for example, won’t review a product that isn’t sold by at least six dealers. This “Catch-22” has brought progress in the high-end to a virtual standstill. The only things that continue to steadily advance are the exorbitant prices. I’m sure that many potential enthusiasts have opened a high-end magazine and looked at the prices of the products they’re reading about and abandoned the hobby without further investigation. $10,000, or more, for speaker cable? Who’s kidding whom?

[Kal Rubinson]

If, for example, publications start writing that there's no need to look beyond BDP-83/SE for an universal disc player (which may be in large quite true), then they eliminate the need for the existence of their publication. They always need to "hawk" new products, though some publications take this need to the extreme, and as I pointed out earlier, can be quite untrustworthy.

That presupposes that a publication speaks with a single voice. I suppose some do but others publish reports from many reviewers with widely differing (and, sometimes, opposing) opinions. Sometimes there is a consensus but, in general, I tend to take a review as the, hopefully, informed opinion of an individual, whether in print or on the 'net.

(One consequence of this is that I get pissed off when someone refers to a Stereophile review in terms like "Stereophile loved it" or "Stereophile thought it was a bargain at the price." If I wrote that review, it is no one's opinion but my own. If someone else wrote that review, I do not necessarily agree.)

I feel better now.

[Orb]

Can we add cheap while still being well built to that list?

Yes, you woke up another memory for me too. When I first got into the high-end, I niavely thought that better gear would make all things sound better. Boy was I wrong. Though, I have to admit, that WB/Classe combo was always listenable, even on tracks that sound like complete dreck on other top-of-the-line gear.

I think you hit the nail on the head and totally agree.
Reminds me the difference between say the Chord DAC64 and QBD76 dac that replaced it.
In many ways the QBD is far superior, but man the DAC64 works so well with other Chord gear everything was always listenable, even average recording were enjoyable.
Now the QBD is more ruthless and while being superior that bit of listening to anything sparkle is lost.

This applies to any audio gear, with the above just an example in my experience.
The key for me anyway is finding the enjoyment for as much music as possible, including the more average recordings.

Cheers
Orb

[beden1]

That presupposes that a publication speaks with a single voice. I suppose some do but others publish reports from many reviewers with widely differing (and, sometimes, opposing) opinions. Sometimes there is a consensus but, in general, I tend to take a review as the, hopefully, informed opinion of an individual, whether in print or on the 'net.

(One consequence of this is that I get pissed off when someone refers to a Stereophile review in terms like "Stereophile loved it" or "Stereophile thought it was a bargain at the price." If I wrote that review, it is no one's opinion but my own. If someone else wrote that review, I do not necessarily agree.)

I feel better now.

For what it's worth Kal, I look forward to reading your reviews, and feel they are spot on and unbias. I have also learned quite a bit from your approach to auditioning components and systems.

Additionally, I have not gone wrong by purchasing components that you have reviewed positively, or other products that have been reviewed and listed on Stereophile's A rated lists.

Keep up the good work professor! :T

[KyaDawn]

That presupposes that a publication speaks with a single voice. I suppose some do but others publish reports from many reviewers with widely differing (and, sometimes, opposing) opinions. Sometimes there is a consensus but, in general, I tend to take a review as the, hopefully, informed opinion of an individual, whether in print or on the 'net.

(One consequence of this is that I get pissed off when someone refers to a Stereophile review in terms like "Stereophile loved it" or "Stereophile thought it was a bargain at the price." If I wrote that review, it is no one's opinion but my own. If someone else wrote that review, I do not necessarily agree.)

I feel better now.

Kal, I wasn't trying to generalize all audio magazines (though it might have come off that way), and this is why I said "some publications". There are a handful that have higher standards, and I consider "Stereophile" one of them, but you have to admit there are a lot of publications, in print or on the web, that tread much closer to the quote posted by wettou.

Now I admit I buy these magazines on occasion, many of them published here locally in Hong Kong, where from the advertisements it's the easiest way to find out where the dealers are and what brands they are carrying, but I have learned to become more skeptical of the reviews. From my own listening experiences, I have to say at least 80% of the speakers reviewed that I've heard myself has been over-rated, and some to the extreme.

Of course, reviews are only opinions, and subject to personal taste, but that aside, when someone writes "In 35 years of pursuing audio Nirvana, [speaker x] stands alone at as the single most musically and technically impressive audio component I've had the privilege to experience", that's more than just a "good review". That's an all-out "this is the best speaker on Earth" endorsement. Which theoretically you could accept as his truthful opinion if he didn't qualify it by stating he hasn't heard [speaker y], which is a higher model from the same manufacturer.

I can imagine we'll see a review of [speaker y] from the same reviewer a few months down the line, and that will be his new "single most musically and technically impressive audio component" he's had "the privilege to experience". Until, of course, he reviews [speaker z], which is that particular company's top-of-the-line speaker, and then again, when the same company rolls out their new models.

And not trying to be cryptic, the review is real and the speakers referred to are the Rockport Aquila, Altair and Arrakis, but I'm using this quote as more of an example of the kind of exaggerated and outlandish claims that are being published regularly.

Sadly, some people do buy into these reviews, as I have in the past (until I actually heard the speakers), and you see these types of sentiments filter down to the forums, where people are buying $50K+ speakers based on what they read, and then they have to justify to themselves that they made the right choice by regurgitating these claims, most of which were not made earnest in the first place.

So my underlying point, as it has been all along, is that we should just take these reviews that we read with a huge grain of salt. And that's not to belittle the profession, which I think is another sad aspect of all this where actually respectable reviewers with honest opinions get lumped in with the hyperbolic ones, but just understanding that there may be hidden bias or motivations that color some of the reviews, and that in the end, we should all make our own purchase decisions based on our own opinions.

[wettou]

.... in the end, we should all make our own purchase decisions based on our own opinions.

YES :T

[KyaDawn]

Kya -

Thanks for the details.

I did come away with a different result when I compared a pair of CAM-400's to a pair of Bel Canto Ref 1000's (these use similar Ice Power modules as in the Rotel). I did the comparison in my home connected to a Lexicon Prepro and Revel Studio 2 speakers. While in the end, I found that these two very different amps sounded very close to one another, the days spent listening to them was a roller coaster of this one sounding better than that one and back again. I found that when I thought I had dialed into something one amp was doing better, I would switch to the other amp, and I would hear the same thing. The whole experience was maddening. I listened in particular to the bass between the two, because the Ice Amps are supposed to have better than average control down low. I didn't hear it. I'm not saying that the two sounded identical, but the differences were so small that I could see living with either one quite easily.

Yes, the Rotel RB-1092 and the Bel Canto REF1000 are both based on the Bang & Olufsen 1000ASP module, so performance-wise they should be very similar. However, the speakers in question were different. It could be very well the 802D is more affected by the difference in amps than the Revel Studio 2. Who knows the real reason, but I certainly heard a huge difference between the Rotel and the Classe amps.

Your comment about the bass sounding tighter on the Rotel reminds me of an experience I had when I first installed my Velodyne DD15 sub. Setting the level of the sub even just a couple of dB too high made the bass sound like it was plodding behind the rest of the music, but once I had the sub calibrated properly the bass snapped into place. The Velo was still not as tight as the JL I have now, but it was interesting to have that experience because it showed me that there is some psychological phenomenon at play -- that the bass sounded "slow" when it was just too high in level relative to the rest of the musical signal.

That's a good point. Bass integration can play a big part in one's perception of "fast" or "slow" bass, especially with subs. In this case, however, it was probably more of the affects of the amps on the overall balance of the speaker. The Rotel was "leaner" overall so to me it gave off the impression of tighter or "faster" bass. Having said that, the Classes were in no way boomy or unbalanced in the low-end. It was just more substantial.

I can also related to your comment that the Classe sounded smoother and less digital, but not in regards to the amp. I had that experience with the SSP-800. Though again, this was a subtle change and one that I wouldn't expect the average joe to even notice.

Funny enough, the pre-amp used in the audition was Classe, though not the SSP-800. I believe it was the CP-700. It could very well be that the CA-M400 just matched better with the CP-700 than the Rotel RB-1092, which may account for some of their differences that I heard in the demo.

I don't know how your dealer could have fixed the demo, other than possibly running the Rotel amp cold (no warm-up time). I've heard qualities similar to what you describe with my system at start-up, which go away within about 30 mins. You might try, just for fun, unplugging your amp over night and listening to it the next day. Putting it in standby may not work for this test, since there is still current flowing through most components in standby.

I was really just joking! :B Though you may have a point with the Rotel not being warmed up. I may just try that test, though I have all the electrical plugs so well hidden and put away in my BDI cabinet that I'm not sure I want to mess with it again!

Either way, I'm glad that the Rotel ended up sounding better (for whatever reason) in your home. Those CAMs take up a lot of space.

Frankly, if I did like the ones I bought (off Agon), I don't know where I would have put them either.

These are the CAMs behind my center console. A temporary set-up during my audition.

Yes, I'm definitely glad too! I really do think the Audyssey helped a lot as well as my own tweaks in the EQ. It could also be that my ears have "broken in" to my set-up. If I ever get the chance, I would love to be able to do the comparison again with the CA-M400 in my own system and matched with the Denon 4308, which I use as my pre/pro. Then again, I might not "like" the results.

[AV-OCD]

Kal, I wasn't trying to generalize all audio magazines (though it might have come off that way), and this is why I said "some publications". There are a handful that have higher standards, and I consider "Stereophile" one of them, but you have to admit there are a lot of publications, in print or on the web, that tread much closer to the quote posted by wettou.

Now I admit I buy these magazines on occasion, many of them published here locally in Hong Kong, where from the advertisements it's the easiest way to find out where the dealers are and what brands they are carrying, but I have learned to become more skeptical of the reviews. From my own listening experiences, I have to say at least 80% of the speakers reviewed that I've heard myself has been over-rated, and some to the extreme.

Of course, reviews are only opinions, and subject to personal taste, but that aside, when someone writes "In 35 years of pursuing audio Nirvana, [speaker x] stands alone at as the single most musically and technically impressive audio component I've had the privilege to experience", that's more than just a "good review". That's an all-out "this is the best speaker on Earth" endorsement. Which theoretically you could accept as his truthful opinion if he didn't qualify it by stating he hasn't heard [speaker y], which is a higher model from the same manufacturer.

I can imagine we'll see a review of [speaker y] from the same reviewer a few months down the line, and that will be his new "single most musically and technically impressive audio component" he's had "the privilege to experience". Until, of course, he reviews [speaker z], which is that particular company's top-of-the-line speaker, and then again, when the same company rolls out their new models.

And not trying to be cryptic, the review is real and the speakers referred to are the Rockport Aquila, Altair and Arrakis, but I'm using this quote as more of an example of the kind of exaggerated and outlandish claims that are being published regularly.

Sadly, some people do buy into these reviews, as I have in the past (until I actually heard the speakers), and you see these types of sentiments filter down to the forums, where people are buying $50K+ speakers based on what they read, and then they have to justify to themselves that they made the right choice by regurgitating these claims, most of which were not made earnest in the first place.

So my underlying point, as it has been all along, is that we should just take these reviews that we read with a huge grain of salt. And that's not to belittle the profession, which I think is another sad aspect of all this where actually respectable reviewers with honest opinions get lumped in with the hyperbolic ones, but just understanding that there may be hidden bias or motivations that color some of the reviews, and that in the end, we should all make our own purchase decisions based on our own opinions.

While Kal does seem to be one of the more honest reviewers, I have to say that overall, I'm just as disappointed with the subjective portions of Stereophile's equipment reviews as any other AV mag out there. Where is the criticism? I've listened to more than a few speakers reviewed within Stereophile, and each one of them has a distinct character, or they color the sound in some way, but all we get to read in Stereophile or virtually any other mag is a review written through rose colored glasses, and if there is any criticism it is usually glossed over and minimized. I’m not looking for a public thrashing of a given piece, but surely there have been some disappointments with gear that looked promising, but failed to deliver. It’s sure happened to me more than once and I haven’t been through nearly the volume of product that Stereophile has…. Not yet anyway.

[wettou]

While Kal does seem to be one of the more honest reviewers, I have to say that overall, I'm just as disappointed with the subjective portions of Stereophile's equipment reviews as any other AV mag out there. Where is the criticism? ....

They are in business to sell rags, true Kal is maybe more objective, but I have never seen an article from any reviewer saying don't buy this it is overpriced and a piece of crap...

Monster cable super cables..... MARKETING

[AV-OCD]

They are in business to sell rags, true Kal is maybe more objective, but I have never seen an article from any reviewer saying don't buy this it is overpriced and a piece of crap...

Monster cable super cables..... MARKETING

What we need is a consumer reports magazine for the high-end, one that doesn't place Bose at the top of the list for best value for the sound.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, I wasn't trying to generalize all audio magazines (though it might have come off that way), and this is why I said "some publications". There are a handful that have higher standards, and I consider "Stereophile" one of them, but you have to admit there are a lot of publications, in print or on the web, that tread much closer to the quote posted by wettou.

If you say so but I cannot agree or disagree. I rarely read any other print magazine and get the rest of my info from the web, including second-hand representations of the other mags.

[Kal Rubinson]

They are in business to sell rags, true Kal is maybe more objective, but I have never seen an article from any reviewer saying don't buy this it is overpriced and a piece of crap...

Again, via my own myopia, I think that overpriced crap is usually easy to identify and avoid, so I would not take such for review. OTOH, others have different opinions on the same stuff.

[sikoniko]

Again, via my own myopia, I think that overpriced crap is usually easy to identify and avoid, so I would not take such for review. OTOH, others have different opinions on the same stuff.

thats pretty funny, because that is exactly what I think of Revel Salon's based on multiple listening sessions in various rooms and electronic configurations; however, many people think they are the greatest thing since the invention on the wheel...

[Kal Rubinson]

thats pretty funny, because that is exactly what I think of Revel Salon's based on multiple listening sessions in various rooms and electronic configurations; however, many people think they are the greatest thing since the invention on the wheel...

I will not argue with you. You know my opinion and now I know yours. In this case, there are quality components and a lot of engineering in the product even though it may not suit you.

What I am thinking about are those "boutique" speakers using a single driver selling for more than the Salons.Also, the electronic components whose only unique feature is an outrageously unusual physical design. There are more.

[wettou]

I will not argue with you. You know my opinion and now I know yours. In this case, there are quality components and a lot of engineering in the product even though it may not suit you.

What I am thinking about are those "boutique" speakers using a single driver selling for more than the Salons.Also, the electronic components whose only unique feature is an outrageously unusual physical design. There are more.

I happen to like the Revel Salon a lot of engineering went into these speakers

[wettou]

What we need is a consumer reports magazine for the high-end, one that doesn't place Bose at the top of the list for best value for the sound.

That would be great but it won't happen not enough customers

[alebonau]

Yes, the Rotel RB-1092 and the Bel Canto REF1000 are both based on the Bang & Olufsen 1000ASP module, so performance-wise they should be very similar. However, the speakers in question were different. It could be very well the 802D is more affected by the difference in amps than the Revel Studio 2. Who knows the real reason, but I certainly heard a huge difference between the Rotel and the Classe amps.



That's a good point. Bass integration can play a big part in one's perception of "fast" or "slow" bass, especially with subs. In this case, however, it was probably more of the affects of the amps on the overall balance of the speaker. The Rotel was "leaner" overall so to me it gave off the impression of tighter or "faster" bass. Having said that, the Classes were in no way boomy or unbalanced in the low-end. It was just more substantial.



Funny enough, the pre-amp used in the audition was Classe, though not the SSP-800. I believe it was the CP-700. It could very well be that the CA-M400 just matched better with the CP-700 than the Rotel RB-1092, which may account for some of their differences that I heard in the demo.



I was really just joking! :B Though you may have a point with the Rotel not being warmed up. I may just try that test, though I have all the electrical plugs so well hidden and put away in my BDI cabinet that I'm not sure I want to mess with it again!



Yes, I'm definitely glad too! I really do think the Audyssey helped a lot as well as my own tweaks in the EQ. It could also be that my ears have "broken in" to my set-up. If I ever get the chance, I would love to be able to do the comparison again with the CA-M400 in my own system and matched with the Denon 4308, which I use as my pre/pro. Then again, I might not "like" the results.

hey kya, funny you mention the bel canto ref 1000 vs another amp using the same B&O ice module. Reminds me of a brief comparison I heard on the same system back to back of the belcanto ref 1000 mono blocs vs the wyred amp using the same ice amps. How different the sound was between them was hard to miss ! the wyred with a rolled off warm polite sound and the belcanto a very dry neutral-sterile sound almost to a fault ! so yeah given the same basis its amazing the difference in sound different manufacturers can end up with !

coming back to the 805D. I've heard the 805s on a beaut fully optioned naim system, on the nad master series combo, and also the musical fidelity a1 combo. And following the listen on the only 36wpc musical fidelity a1 amp and cd. one thing it told me is the B&Ws dont need a lot of power to make them sing ! not sure if using a ht setup youd still probably use a more grunty and xover over the speakers to a decent sub anyhow. But the point being I certainly didnt find the 805 a power hungry speaker. I wonder if the 805D will be along similar lines means would open up the field to some low wattage but suitably high quality amps :T rather than having to use with very expensive high output behemoth mono blocs !

[Orb]

While Kal does seem to be one of the more honest reviewers, I have to say that overall, I'm just as disappointed with the subjective portions of Stereophile's equipment reviews as any other AV mag out there. Where is the criticism?
Snip

Ah bud you should had noticed and its a good technique Stereophile journalist use.
A lot of the products it seems that are reviewed the journalists personally identify visiting various shows,etc.
This means that in most cases a truly negative review can be avoided as the product will never make it into the journalist's house.
In a way this keeps everyone happy, as I doubt journalists enjoy ripping products apart and manufacturers have some sort of status quo.
The key is watching out for products that are never reviewed or mentioned :W

That said there have been a few critical reviews even in Stereophile, and these tend to occur more when the product is possibly not selected by the journalist.
Examples I see recently were the Totems, Bryston and Chord amps.

Also there are critical reviews but they are done in a balanced style, look at Kal's review of the universal player with the insides of an oppo.

I can see a possible downside that if a reviewer is selective on a product it is something they may want to review, the downside is to do with potential bias towards preferred audio presentation and maybe skews other reviews.
An example and this is only my opinion is the Bryston and Chord amp reviews where it is possible to see that MF does prefer a different type of characteristic.
However that bias towards preferred audio presentation can be overcome as seen by Kal,JA,Paul Miller,etc.

So bear in mind a magazine has to walk a tightrope, but the best way IMO is to avoid actually reviewing the products that really are dire, this still means there are times when products are mentioned with caveat,issues or other critique.

I read 5 publications monthly and for me Stereophile and Hi-Finews have the best approach with thorough testing, thats my take on it anyway

Cheers
Orb

[KyaDawn]

hey kya, funny you mention the bel canto ref 1000 vs another amp using the same B&O ice module. Reminds me of a brief comparison I heard on the same system back to back of the belcanto ref 1000 mono blocs vs the wyred amp using the same ice amps. How different the sound was between them was hard to miss ! the wyred with a rolled off warm polite sound and the belcanto a very dry neutral-sterile sound almost to a fault ! so yeah given the same basis its amazing the difference in sound different manufacturers can end up with !

Hi Alebonau, that's an interesting observation. I've never heard the Bel Canto REF1000, but AV-OCD mentioned that it was similar to the Rotel RB-1092, and it's true, they are based on the same Bang & Olufsen 1000ASP module. Your description of the Bel Canto closely mirrors my initial experience with the RB-1092 at the audition when I compared it to two Classe amps. In fact, "dry", "neutral" and "sterile" is a perfect way to describe how I heard the RB-1092! It's then interesting to me that AV-OCD thought they sounded similar to the Classe CA-M400, which I don't think sounds dry, neutral or sterile at all!

Your experience with the Wyred amp compared with the Bel Canto underlines my point that amps can and do sound very different from each other. It underlines it even more that the two you listened to were based on the same B&O ice amp, and yet sounded so different to you.

coming back to the 805D. I've heard the 805s on a beaut fully optioned naim system, on the nad master series combo, and also the musical fidelity a1 combo. And following the listen on the only 36wpc musical fidelity a1 amp and cd. one thing it told me is the B&Ws dont need a lot of power to make them sing ! not sure if using a ht setup youd still probably use a more grunty and xover over the speakers to a decent sub anyhow. But the point being I certainly didnt find the 805 a power hungry speaker. I wonder if the 805D will be along similar lines means would open up the field to some low wattage but suitably high quality amps :T rather than having to use with very expensive high output behemoth mono blocs !

I actually use the 500wpc RB-1092 to power my 802Ds, which do need a lot of power, not my 805Ss. Those I use as surround speakers and which are powered by my Denon 4308, which are "only" 140wpc, and plenty enough for the 805S. The 805S is rated 50W - 120W, so my Denon is more than enough for them, and they sound great! I think the 805D will be very similar and easy to drive. :T