Another 803D vs 803S question

[ak77]

Hi all

I have a pair of 803S running through classe kit. I always wanted to ask this question...so here I am.

803S has two bass drivers where as 803D has three. In terms of their technical specification, they both have same lower frequency response. Does this imply that 803D does not go any deeper but only produces more bass per volume?

For that matter, 802D has two bigger 8" bass drivers but still the frequency response of 802D is only 1Hz lower than that of 803S.

Am I right to assume that bigger bass driver equate to deeper bass? but more bass drivers just means that u hear more bass per volume? which is better? I think deeper should be better than just more bass? or is the same at the end of the day?

Even the top of the range from B&W 800 series does not go below 29hz where as many speakers from PMC, and other companies easily go as low as 19hz. So the other part of my question is why does B&W choose to not go very low? what could be the B&W rationale behind keeping speakers within 29Hz-35Khz???

Hope this make sense

Thanks,
Andy

[Neo_Ophyte]

It's all in the filters.

The 803D has 3 low end units doens't mean they all do the same thing...

The 3th bas driver does other things.

It's all in the filter.

+ ofcourse it has the diamond high tone tweeter.
But that again is balanced within the rest / against the rest.

[ak77]

Sorry, I dont get this unfortunately. Can you explain this a bit more please?

Does your answer mean that I am make the 803S speakers go down to 20hz by tweaking the filters (which I suppose you mean the crossovers). I dont think that sounds right.

Regards,
Andy

[Mark-n-b]

It's all in the filters.

The 803D has 3 low end units doens't mean they all do the same thing...

The 3th bas driver does other things.

It's all in the filter.

+ ofcourse it has the diamond high tone tweeter.
But that again is balanced within the rest / against the rest.

I have to say that I am intrigued by this too...

I have gone from 802D to 803D and in my opinion I hear far more deep(er) and more powerful bass now with the 803D than I did with the 802Ds (the mid range is not quite as good, but this was to be expected). However, I thought this was to do with placement of the 803Ds which are close to a rear wall.

[Briz vegas]

This is surely academic.

If they monitor the recording at Abbey Road studios with a speaker that does not go down to 20hz then how is it going to make any difference for your listening at home.

I sat and listened to 804s V 802D recently. Bass was a bit fuller with 802 in that setup when both powered by Classe Monoblocks in a large room. Honestly the difference was there but it was not that huge. It was more effortless with 802D but both were tight and in fact the less full bass in the 804 seemed more punchy.

If you are a basshead get yourself a sub and set the crossover at 80hz. You can dial in as much doof as you want with a sub.

[ak77]

I would not say that I am a bass head. I am really very happy with the sound of my 803s partnered with CDP-102 and CAP2100...love it to bits. My question is purely academic here.

An earlier comment about 803D having better bass than 802D seem to suggest that potentially more bass gives perception of better bass. but thats the point that I am trying to come to. Is more bass beter than deeper bass (within the realm of sensibility - meaning not the kind of bass that over shadows other sounds).

This leads me to another question, which would be a more accurate speaker in terms of bass production - the one with three 7" bass drivers or one with two 8" bass drivers.

Hope this makes sense

[Briz vegas]

I don't think the equation is that simple.

Bass quality would be a function of the quality of the drivers, crossovers, cabinets, amplification, source and the room and recording. As you go up the range B&W pay more attention to all these factors (they expect you to look after amps and the room). 7inch vs 8inch is negligible in the scheme of things when you consider 12 and 15 inch drivers are also used by some.

To me bass is more than volume and punch. Really good bass does not make its presence felt as it is well integrated and merely forms part of the music or the recorded room acoustic etc. Biggest problem is that it is really hard to find at a hifi dealer so most people have never heard a really top system in action unless they have obsessive audiopile mates with years of system tweaking experience.

[Briz vegas]

Post 1000. I should make this a good one worthy of its significance and maturity..

:smackbutt:

I blame Sasha Baron-cohen for this post.

[htsteve]

To me bass is more than volume and punch. Really good bass does not make its presence felt as it is well integrated and merely forms part of the music or the recorded room acoustic etc. Biggest problem is that it is really hard to find at a hifi dealer so most people have never heard a really top system in action unless they have obsessive audiopile mates with years of system tweaking experience.

Amen to this. The bass in my HT room is deep, has indredible depth and soundstage. But most of all, it just part of the overall picture. It is definitely noticeable, but as part of the greater whole. Room acoustics and placement of bass definitely have an impact as well. After treating my room with treatments, everything got better, but especially the bass.

[ak77]

thanks guys

I am not sure whether I have got the answer I was looking for but I think I get the overall picture

Cheers! :T

[Mark-n-b]

thanks guys

I am not sure whether I have got the answer I was looking for but I think I get the overall picture

Cheers! :T

Better to go lower imo.

[Tweir]

Somebody said that the 3rd bass is doing something different. This is false. The difference between the 803s and the 803d would be the "D" model gives you the
diamond tweeter over the aluminum tweeter and add another 7" bass driver. The
crossover between the bass and the midrange is also different the 803s is at 250hz
and the 803d is at 350hz. At the time of writing this b&w have revised the specs and the crossover is now 350 for both. The 803d has better punch in the bass and can
really get down. The tweeter to me helps out with depth of sound and a relaxed
sound. The 803d is also deserves so good equipment like Mcintosh mc402, mc501
and Classe, ca2200, or cam400.

[style]

Somebody said that the 3rd bass is doing something different. This is false. The difference between the 803s and the 803d would be the "D" model gives you the
diamond tweeter over the aluminum tweeter and add another 7" bass driver. The
crossover between the bass and the midrange is also different the 803s is at 250hz
and the 803d is at 350hz. At the time of writing this b&w have revised the specs and the crossover is now 350 for both. The 803d has better punch in the bass and can
really get down. The tweeter to me helps out with depth of sound and a relaxed
sound. The 803d is also deserves so good equipment like Mcintosh mc402, mc501
and Classe, ca2200, or cam400.

I agree 100% :T :T

the jump from a 803S to a 803D is higher vs. the jump from a 803D to a 802D...is very much more notable.
if you go have / listen the 803D is love :B

Style

[ak77]

Hi Guys

Sorry for bringing this up again. I had been to my dealer recently to satisfy my upgraditis itch. Was mainly after 802D but had a listen to 803D as well along side 803s to answer my original query. Wanted to share some thoughts with you on this.

For the aesthetics, design and obviously the sound quality, I am totally sold for 802D. However while comparing these speakers, I did observe closely how the room plays a part in the sound acoustics and probably why has B&W created so many different models in their 800 series (or any series for that matter).

These models are expected to provide an ideal characteristic sound quality known for the series. The quality of sound has to be consistent accross all models of 800 series when compared to another series by B&W. I guess one of the key reasons of having so many different models is to be able to maintain the same quality of sound for different room sizes. An 805s would be ideal for a small flat where as it would sound thin and awful in the large room. on these lines, as the model go up starting from 805s, they are suppose to provide higher volume while maintaining the same qualty of sound accross the audible band.

So from this argument, if people compare 803s with 803d or 803d with 802d and they prefer the sound of 803d to 803s, it means that either 803s is in a room too big for itself or 803d is in a room not large enough for it whereby producing a more bassy sound and hence appealing to people with more bass preference. If both these speakers were placed in rooms appropriate for their designated volume levels, then there should not be any difference in sound quality (ignoring the diamond and standard tweeter differences). the bass levels should sound same with bass from 803d no deeper or more than 803s.

I am not sure whether the above point holds true for 803d vs 802d as ideally they both are same power levels with 803d just slimmer and without Marlan head.

What are your views gents?

Andy

[MikeFL52]

Hi Guys

So from this argument, if people compare 803s with 803d or 803d with 802d and they prefer the sound of 803d to 803s, it means that either 803s is in a room too big for itself or 803d is in a room not large enough for it whereby producing a more bassy sound and hence appealing to people with more bass preference. If both these speakers were placed in rooms appropriate for their designated volume levels, then there should not be any difference in sound quality (ignoring the diamond and standard tweeter differences). the bass levels should sound same with bass from 803d no deeper or more than 803s.

What are your views gents?

Andy

The 803S and 803D are totally different speakers from every aspect. Just because they both start with 803 does not mean they are related.

[Antus]

natually, if speaker want to produce 20Hz "directly", the size has to be around 15inch and bigger. however, that will make the speaker too big for a regular size room. Most manufactures use port to help producing the lowest frequency.
with that said, few instuments can produce frequency that low either. regular music hardly go below 30Hz. in addition, Poople usually don't have a hearing ability that low, either. We tend to "feel" the super low bass instead of "hear" them. As a result, use port to reproduce bass usually considered a good compermise.

If the speaker menufacture twick the crossiver, they can push the speaker to produce few Hz deeper for the expense of super low frequency (sub 20Hz). Which means the bass will sound more punchy but not roll off as smoothly. (so it's not a perfect world, afterall)

so why 803D has more bass than 803S. there are 2 reasons. first, on 803D, three drivers connect in parallel, which make impendance and resistance lower than 803S. Lower impendance menas higher output from amperfier (if the amp is high quality) second reason being more area to push the air (3 vs.2) 803D can move more air than 803S. However, move more air doesn't means go lower. just more volumn and more punchy u can feel.

why other menufacture can go very low with small driver? it's the crossover design. some menufacture heavly twick the crossover to make small driver produce deep bass. B&W want to use as few crossovers as possible.

speaker design is an art of compermise. you simply can't get a perfect speaker. it's rather a give and take situation.

[Eliav]

natually, if speaker want to produce 20Hz "directly", the size has to be around 15inch and bigger. however, that will make the speaker too big for a regular size room. Most manufactures use port to help producing the lowest frequency.
with that said, few instuments can produce frequency that low either. regular music hardly go below 30Hz. in addition, Poople usually don't have a hearing ability that low, either. We tend to "feel" the super low bass instead of "hear" them. As a result, use port to reproduce bass usually considered a good compermise.

If the speaker menufacture twick the crossiver, they can push the speaker to produce few Hz deeper for the expense of super low frequency (sub 20Hz). Which means the bass will sound more punchy but not roll off as smoothly. (so it's not a perfect world, afterall)

so why 803D has more bass than 803S. there are 2 reasons. first, on 803D, three drivers connect in parallel, which make impendance and resistance lower than 803S. Lower impendance menas higher output from amperfier (if the amp is high quality) second reason being more area to push the air (3 vs.2) 803D can move more air than 803S. However, move more air doesn't means go lower. just more volumn and more punchy u can feel.

why other menufacture can go very low with small driver? it's the crossover design. some menufacture heavly twick the crossover to make small driver produce deep bass. B&W want to use as few crossovers as possible.

speaker design is an art of compermise. you simply can't get a perfect speaker. it's rather a give and take situation.

:T
Agreed. most people cannot hear frequencies below 35Hz, nor can they hear above 12Khz. frequencies below 50Hz are considered "tactile" rather than audible: You feel the vibrations rather than actually hear them.
Otherwise, if you look at the frequency distribution of calssical music for example, the amount of time a speaker 'spends' below 35Hz is minimal.
I have always wondered how would the perfect low-end reproduction by a high-end system sound like. i guess I still am looking for the answer, my system, as good as I think it is, does not reproduce the liveliness of a bass guitar i hear in a live acoustic concert. sometimes I feel that my car audio ( a pretty good one) does a darn good job with the lower end reproduction; tight bass, unsmeared lower end etc, not as tight as my CAM400/800d combo, yet for the price difference .. .
As stated before by one of the members, sound reproduction is an integration of the sound engineer studio work, your electronics, speakers, the room acoustics, the speaker and listener position, and your ears...
Cheers
:T

[wettou]

:T As stated before by one of the members, sound reproduction is an integration of the sound engineer studio work, your electronics, speakers, the room acoustics, the speaker and listener position, and your ears...:T

Yes we always forget the first piece in an audiophile system our EARS get them cleaned by an audiologist or your E.N.T.!

[Tweir]

The 803S and 803D are totally different speakers from every aspect. Just because they both start with 803 does not mean they are related.

Where do you get this from? Both have the same midrange and both have the
some crossovers and both have the same box (matrix) both have the exact same woofer's. The "d" has a diamond tweeter and an extra 7" bass this is
all. They are not totally different speakers they are the closet to each other
in the entire line up.

[emig5m]

Where do you get this from? Both have the same midrange and both have the
some crossovers and both have the same box (matrix) both have the exact same woofer's. The "d" has a diamond tweeter and an extra 7" bass this is
all. They are not totally different speakers they are the closet to each other
in the entire line up.

I was thinking the same exact thing when I read his post, heh.

The tweeter to me helps out with depth of sound and a relaxed
sound. The 803d is also deserves so good equipment like Mcintosh mc402, mc501
and Classe, ca2200, or cam400.

Well my opinion is they deserve good room acoustics, placement, and listening position BEFORE needing the highest end electronics. I've heard first hand a B&W 683 with a cheap Yamaha AVR and Emotiva Amp out-due a 803D and Classe amp that was thrown together half-assed in a un-finished theater project room (one speaker directly in a corner, the other by a large opening into another area, not much for furniture except three chairs, thin industrial style carpet over concrete floor, basically bare walls everywhere, etc.etc.) Well at least the guy admitted it was the room/setup why the speakers sounded mediocre.

But it put enough doubt in my head about spending that much on speakers that don't sound that good that I walked away from an amazing deal for basically a brand new set of 803D in pristine condition for only $4800. I wound up going for brand new 804S later after being able to audition them in a properly setup room (at a B&W dealer), but I really wish I could go back and get the mint and barely used 803D for the $4800 cash. I could of re-sold them for no loss and possibly a profit if I still didn't like them or think they weren't worth the money. I'm so stupid... :M If only the guy would of let me move the speakers around and out from the walls and corners I may have at least been able to get some type of stereo imaging out of them, but oh well... Once the doubt was in my head, it was a wrap and four hours of driving for nothing... :M

[MikeFL52]

Where do you get this from? Both have the same midrange and both have the
some crossovers and both have the same box (matrix) both have the exact same woofer's. The "d" has a diamond tweeter and an extra 7" bass this is
all. They are not totally different speakers they are the closet to each other
in the entire line up.

I was thinking the same exact thing when I read his post, heh.

Sometimes people should do a little research and listening before posting.

If you go an look purely on the specs (responses) the 803D has more in common with the 802D than the 803S. The 802D, 803D and 803S all have the same cross-over and they all have the FST mid-range. The dimensions of the 803D "box" and the 803S "box" is entirely different. The D for the tweeter is a huge difference and the extra bass speaker results in a more solid bottom end.

I upgraded from N804s to the 803Ds and the difference was night & day (not subtle at all).

I have also listened to 803Ss and again I will stand by my statement that the 803S and 803D are entirely different speakers from a listening experience perpective.

[ak77]

Interesting.... 8O

I am not toally convinced with the idea of 803s and 803d being totally different speakers. Obviously I am coming from the theory that all the speakers in the line of 800 series are designed to produce same quality of sound (within measurable limits) but for different room sizes.

My question still remains unanswered...is my theory correct?

:roll:

[Tweir]

Sometimes people should do a little research and listening before posting.

If you go an look purely on the specs (responses) the 803D has more in common with the 802D than the 803S. The 802D, 803D and 803S all have the same cross-over and they all have the FST mid-range. The dimensions of the 803D "box" and the 803S "box" is entirely different. The D for the tweeter is a huge difference and the extra bass speaker results in a more solid bottom end.

I upgraded from N804s to the 803Ds and the difference was night & day (not subtle at all).

I have also listened to 803Ss and again I will stand by my statement that the 803S and 803D are entirely different speakers from a listening experience perpective.

Okay so you think the 802d has more in common with 803d. So maybe because they have completely different mid enclosures? Or maybe because the 802d has its crossover in the plinth. Or maybe the 8" inch woofers. I have worked with B&W for over 8 years and have been to UK and visited them.

With that said the 803d has a closer sound to the 802d then the 803s as it should being closer in the lineup. The
main difference being the bass is deeper on the 802d and the bass on the
803d is harder or punchier. The mid is also different being the 802d sounds
more neutral and sweeter depending on the components upstream.

But given the price of 802d 14k to 803d 9k to 803s 6k the 803s and 803d are also closer in price.

At the end of the day you can think what you like but there is truth and you are far from it.......

[Tweir]

Sometimes people should do a little research and listening before posting.

If you go an look purely on the specs (responses) the 803D has more in common with the 802D than the 803S. The 802D, 803D and 803S all have the same cross-over and they all have the FST mid-range. The dimensions of the 803D "box" and the 803S "box" is entirely different. The D for the tweeter is a huge difference and the extra bass speaker results in a more solid bottom end.

I upgraded from N804s to the 803Ds and the difference was night & day (not subtle at all).

I have also listened to 803Ss and again I will stand by my statement that the 803S and 803D are entirely different speakers from a listening experience perpective.

The box is exactly the same! Both are designed and constructed the same. Both are matrix braced and have the same enclosure with both having foam inside the box. The mid enclosure is also exactly the same. The port is exactly the same. The internal volume of the bass section has been increased due to the extra driver. Because of this extra bass the weight
goes from 90lbs (803s) to 98lbs (803d) that is only 8lbs difference. The 802d weighs in at 176lbs completely different league of speaker here.
The 802d has an entirely different mid enclosure called the Nautilus™ head that is one of the biggest differences of this speaker. Then lets go to the crossover, inside the 803s and the 803d the same crossover's and the 804s share these crossover's and all of these speakers have the crossover in the bass portion of the cabinet. Because of this it can affect the sound of the the speaker. The 802d goes to the extreme and takes the crossover out of the bass enclosure and creates a plinth at the bottom of the speaker. Here
the crossover is not affecting the sound whatsoever. Then you add the 8" woofers and larger port that is down firing instead of front firing. Lastly all of these speakers in terms of power handling I have seen the 803s handle around 400 to 500 watts on the mc501 from McIntosh and the 803d handle 475 to 600 watts. The 802d I have seen on the McIntosh mc1201 handle 1000 watts. This is something that the 803s and 803d can not do period.

[pazu]

Hallo!

I'm new in this forum and I'm writing from Palermo.

I've a pair of 803S and I had never to listen the D model.

So, I think the aluminium tweeter is not bad, but... I'd like to listen the diamond one!

In your opinion, is the diamond tweeter so different than aluminium one?

Another question: do you think is it a good idea putting a marbles base under each loudspeaker? Actually I use soundcare spikes.

Thanks,

francesco

P.S.: I hope my english wasn't too bad! ops:

[htsteve]

pazu,

The Diamond tweeter is super smooth. Very easy to listen to with excellent detail. Just very natural sounding. When combined with the rest of the speaker, it forms a very integrated sound. The best thing to do is go listen to them with some of your own material.

I very much like bases under my speakers. A marble base would be quite nice, especially with the soundcare spikes. It would make for a very nice foundation.


Hope this helps.

[pazu]

pazu,

The Diamond tweeter is super smooth. Very easy to listen to with excellent detail. Just very natural sounding. When combined with the rest of the speaker, it forms a very integrated sound. The best thing to do is go listen to them with some of your own material.

I very much like bases under my speakers. A marble base would be quite nice, especially with the soundcare spikes. It would make for a very nice foundation.


Hope this helps.

Very thanks for your answer, steve!

I hope to listen the diamond tweeter very soon.

So, when it will arrive the new 800 series - all diamond tw, naturally! - I could decide to change my 803S with one of new models.



About the bases... In your opinion, are the marbles bases better than "Anchor" ones?

Thanks!

[htsteve]

About the bases... In your opinion, are the marbles bases better than "Anchor" ones?

There maybe sonic differences between marble and Sound Anchor stands. However, they are likely fairly miner. Both serve the same general purpose, to create hefy isolation between the floor and the speaker. Both do that very nicely.

I personally like the idea of marble since it can be tailored to match the decor of the room.


BTW, if or when a new 800 series comes out, it may lead to deals on the current 800 series. It's definitely something to consider.


Hope this helps.