Krell KAV-400xi and B&W 703

[pbarata]

After living for almost 2 years with a Krell KAV-400xi, in a system using Lyngdorf CD-1 CD player, B&W 703 speakers and Nordost cabling, I'm a tad tired with the prominence on sibilant sounds (specially on feminine voices).

What should I do to fix this?

1. Change 400xi for a valve integrated (PrimaLuna Dialogue Two, etc.)?
2. Change speakers with a more relax and sweet sound like Sonus Faber or go for B&W 8 series?
3. Change Nordost with a more warm cabling (Van den Hul, Cardas, etc.)?
4. Add a new CD player, tube based, or a tube base DAC?
5. Just send to the waste basket all these bad recorded CDs with so much of “fsssssss” and “tssssssss” sounds (I'm talking about Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Eva Fitzgerald, etc.)?

[GregLett]

I would go with the tube dac, that is the least costly route and I think you would have good results. I prefer a system with a tube Pre, but since you have an int amp the tube dac is what I would try.

[dknightd]

6. Treat the room.

Do you have absorbers at first reflection points? I found with my 703 that adding an absorbing panel on the first ceiling reflection point made a big difference in "taming" the sound (this after already doing the sidewalls). Your room might be different.

fsss and tsss maybe just part of the way what you are listening to is recorded. You might want to take some recording that trouble you to a stereo store and try them on various pieces of equipment.

[Briz vegas]

1. What is your room like? Hard surfaces do make a significant emphasis on the hssss sounds by adding to them. First reflections give you that harshness as the are closely timed with the direct sound and your brain tells you they are part of the same signal, rathen then the later room relections.

2a how are your speakers angled. If they are directly at you change the toe in so the tweeters are a little off axis

2b. What Nordost are you using? Red Dawn (for example) is a very different animal to Heimdall, Frey or Tyr. Moving up from Red Dawn would help to give you a more natural sound but it does seem to be system specific.

3. I thought I was sensitive to the hsss as well until a friend suggested I come listen to his system and his sibalence problem. Well I heard a pretty balanced sound. My system is darker by comparison, but his was still fine. Some people are just hyper sensitive to the tss tss sound

[bigburner]

Hi pbarata,

I had similar issues to you with my B&W CDM9NT speakers, which were the predecessor to the 703.

I have mostly fixed the problem by changing the acoustics of my room (with rugs, curtains and furniture), installing an LFD DAC3 external DAC (that has less sibilance), installing an ASW750 subwoofer (resulting in less strain on my amp and 9NT's when played loud), and installing a Rotel RC-1082 preamp that has treble and bass controls (not trendy but very handy for those less-than-perfect recordings).

In an ideal world my speakers would be <insert adjectives for the perfect speakers here> but we don't live in a perfect world and I think that I get a very nice sound out of my system now.

Nigel.

[alebonau]

sounds like a bit of a sonic mismatch between the krell and the b&w. is an amp swap out of the question ?

perhaps brands like rotel, classe, nad are worth considering ?have come across some good matches wiht musical fidelity amps as well so maybe worth considering ?

otherwise have you considered a tube buffer ? between say cd player and amp ? depending on the buffer used might just give you the kind of sound your looking for ?

in any regard worth finding a helpfull dealer, ready to help you with lends of gear to help find jsut what your looking for.

ofcourse in all this goes without saying try the best you can wiht the room in treatments, or if thats not possible wiht natural soft furnishings in carpets, curtains, furniture rather than hard reflective furnishings...

[pbarata]

Thank all for helping.

As suggested, I'll prepare a CD with some tracks that really annoy me and try them in diferent systems to see how big is the problem. ( Maybe this is something to do with my ears… ops: )

My room is about 45m2 and the system is located in the middle of the largest wall. The dedicated stereo system is the following:

[alebonau]

just looking at the pic there all I can see are hard reflective surfaces, in the wall, floors the stone fireplace behind etc. this is where I was saying how some soft furnishings can help. eg a rug on the floor

also the speakers look a little close to he back wall ? and perhaps a little too close together as well ? how far away are you from them and what is the rest of the room look like ?

[Briz vegas]

The blue eyed cat agrees with the smiling kitten's assessment.

[Ian D]

The blue eyed cat agrees with the smiling kitten's assessment.

As do I my 703's are about 1metre out from the back wall try pulling them out and seperating them more if your room permits I think you'll be pleasantly suprised.
Also try playing around with your speaker supports, spiking, mounting on stands, made a big differance to mine.
Good luck and enjoy Ian

[pbarata]

Speakers are about 37cm (1,14ft) distance from back wall and 140cm (4,35ft) between them.

B&W 703 don't have a rear port, so distance to the back wall should not be so relevant.

Living room plant in meter (45 sqm total area):

[GregLett]

I am not convinced that room treatments will solve the specific problem of the hard esses. Treatments for me solved imagining and bass control problems,
the sibilant sounds remained. The sound coming out of the speaker needs to be tamed.

Sibilance was something that always bunged me about high end audio setups. Some folks don't seem to be bothered as much but others hate it.

[Dmantis]

I am not convinced that room treatments will solve the specific problem of the hard esses. Treatments for me solved imagining and bass control problems,
the sibilant sounds remained. The sound coming out of the speaker needs to be tamed.

Sibilance was something that always bunged me about high end audio setups. Some folks don't seem to be bothered as much but others hate it.

Be convinced, the room is the most important part of any system, mess that up and I don't care what gear you own, your system will not perform at it's highest level.

hardwood floor and poor placement is what I see from your pic's. Your system is very nice and could sound a lot better. Where do you live? You could hire a Custom Installer with 2 channel experience to come out and check out your room and your system.

[GregLett]

Be convinced, the room is the most important part of any system, mess that up and I don't care what gear you own, your system will not perform at it's highest level.

hardwood floor and poor placement is what I see from your pic's. Your system is very nice and could sound a lot better. Where do you live? You could hire a Custom Installer with 2 channel experience to come out and check out your room and your system.

That's not what I said.room treatment is important, but I am speaking about the spacific problem the poster stated. I do not have that problem.I solved that years ago with a tube preamp.

[alebonau]

quite possibly, not jsut a room treatment, positioning issue, as I mentioned earlier not sure about the kav 400 and b&w as a match myself.

all that said pbarata, looking at your setup the B&Ws look way too close at 1.4m as by the looks of it you are sitting a long way back for them and where your sitting they would need to be a lot more further spaced apart. typically for imaging you start at placing the listening position at the apex of a equilateral triangle formed between you and the speakers.

also distance to the back wall does matter whether front or rear ported. it impacts on bass performance and also imaging / soundstage depth behind the speaker. additionally depending on the position in respect to the wall and material/construct of the wall that can impact on the overall coherence of vocals etc as well.

I also notice you have a centre speaker and another set of speakers for a ht system to the side ?

there is no reason you could not combine those using your B&W as mains for that system as well. the krell kav has a ht bypass meaning it can be quite sucessfully used to drive your mains with ht bypass engaged for ht as well.

things like a rug on the floor will most definteiy improve on sonics, possible some room treatments will help as well, youd need to talk to a professional in regards this.

but see below some simple tips, from the Focal JM LAb manual that I have used my self over the years to naturally furnish and treat a room

The sound rendition of the loudspeaker depends strongly upon the listening room acoustics, the place of the
loudspeakers and the listening area. These factors can be modified in order to correct or enhance a desired
effect.

Should the soundstage be imprecise or not centred, try to move the loudspeakers closer to each other.
Harsh or aggressive sound means that your listening room is probably too reflective. Try to use any absorbing materials (such as tapestries, sofa, wall coverings, curtains combined with reflective materials to absorb or diffuse resonances.

Should the sound be flat” or muffled, there are too many absorbing materials in the listening room. The sound appears to be closed-in, with a narrow stereophonic image. Try to find a better compromise
between absorbing and reflective materials within your listening room. Generally the wall to the rear of
the speakers should be made up of reflective materials so that the sound image exhibits satisfying volume and width. On the contrary the wall on the rear of the listener should be absorbing in order to avoid reflections damaging the perception of the stereo soundstage. These reflections may limit the impression of depth of the sound image. Furniture, such as bookshelves should be ideally placed along the side walls in order to diffuse sound waves and to prevent some frequencies from being amplified, especially in vocal range (it removes flutter echo).

[pbarata]

I used Krell KAV-400xi in home theatre throughput (bypass) mode for a while, together with B&W703 as front speakers. But I come into some issues, namely:

- Krell was not get proper ventilation (I had to install a couple of ultra silent fan ate the back of the rack);

- B&W 703 together with Monitor Audio did not make a coherent sound as they are very different in terms of timbre and bass response;

- CD player was a Rotel RCD-1070 and I was looking for a CDP that could that the most of the balanced inputs from Krell;

- Rotel RMB-1075 still a very good multi-channel together with Rotel RSP-1066 and Monitor Audio Silver 8i/5i/3i and Denon DVD-3910. Once a while I used this setup up for multi-channel music DVDs.

With time I end up with two separate systems, taking most advantage of the music system, while my wife and kids both enjoy most movies.

[alebonau]

pbrata, looking at the equipment mix you got, to me looks like hte krell and the b&w 703 are the odd ones out.

comes down to I guess if you want to continue with this split separate systems in the same room.

to me its a pity you cant combine them as systems, as at present it looks to me your compromising both setups, in layout and speaker position, by trying to fit in the two systems in the same room.

inregards the krell and B&W combination it would sonically be a bit removed from the rotel monitor audio system by comparison, I wonder whether it is because of this you are not quite sure of their sound ?

the rotel sound in my experience would be a bit mroe fuller in the bass and rolled of in the top end vs the lot more unforgiving incissive take no prisoners sound of the krell ?. perhaps a more forgiving amplifier needed here, something more suited to your tastes ?

additionally if B&W 703 doesnt really fit in well with the monitor audio and holding you back from combining systems. Have you considered changing from 703's to maybe somethign like the monitor audio gold signature 60's ?

anyways along with the room/layout suggestions plenty of options, hopefully come to find whats best for your tastes and needs