Which surrounds to match 800Ds and HTM1D in 7.1 set-up

[JargonGR]

Hey all,

I have been reading this forum so some time but never really wrote anything but today I decided to join.

I have the 800ds and HTM1D as my three fronts and (some KEFs at the sides and back - IQ9s back, IQ8ds or IQ3 on the sides/swapping) i was thinking of adding the DS8S as my side surrounds and 805s as my backs (or even bigger if there is a point).

My concern is whether those are powerful enough compared to my fronts since they look a bit "weak" (specs too). I want the best match possible (apart from 7 800Ds ofc) but I would like to hear from some owners how do they sound and how loud they are.

Advice from other people has been anything from 4 804s to 4x805s.

For amplification I am using 2x Electrocompaniet Nemos (AW600) for the 800Ds and a Bryston 14Bsst for the HTM1D (that thing sucks power!!!!). The temporary surrounds are powered by my receiver (Onkyo 905) which will be replace by a pre/pro in the future. I also plan to get either one more Nemo for the HTM1D or a AW400 so the Bryston could be moved and drive a pair of surrounds should I use towers.


So what do you think?

[garak]

Welcome to the forum.

Do you listen to any multi-channel music? SACD or DVD-A? If you do, then I would suggest 804S. If not, then I'd suggest 805S. If your primary focus is multi-channel music then I'd suggest 803Ds for the side surrounds and 805S for the back surrounds. It would definitely be great to have all diamond tweeters for your multi-channel music. I think the 803Ds would also be a better timbre match with your 800Ds for multi-channel music.

[JargonGR]

It's not that I have any big multichannel music collection but at the same time I like it a lot and intend to build up.

I certainly understand that all diamond tweeters would be the best and that is why I am pushing myself towards a pair of 803Ds. However, I am also a huge movie lover and I am using the system for HT as well (Video projector Infocus In83/130" 2.40:1 Curved screen with anamorphic lenses) and I want to match the "big" picture with big sound as well.

Through the tests I am conducting with my KEFs I decided that I don't want dipoles at the back so the question is actually for the side surrounds and whether I would be missing immersion during movie watching without them.
Another thing is whether the 803Ds would go to waste as rear surround channels as part of a 7.1 setup since they are used even less than the sides in movies and maybe not at all in multichannel music. It would be great if I could test this out but I doubt any dealer could bring them over at home!


I would also like to point that while my seating distance from my L&R and back Surrounds is about 4 meters, the side surrounds are only 2 meters away from me. So two 803Ds at the sides could be quite big but I could get them at the back if so.

[Relentless]

For amplification I am using 2x Electrocompaniet Nemos (AW600) for the 800Ds and a Bryston 14Bsst for the HTM1D (that thing sucks power!!!!). The temporary surrounds are powered by my receiver (Onkyo 905) which will be replace by a pre/pro in the future. I also plan to get either one more Nemo for the HTM1D or a AW400 so the Bryston could be moved and drive a pair of surrounds should I use towers.


So what do you think?

I would suggest getting the same amp for the front three, especially if you like the Nemo. The amps would have the same gain and sound signature and most likely give you the best results.

[JargonGR]

You are right checking on their specs there are some differences between the AW400 and Nemo so I guess after all I have spend maybe the extra for the Nemo is not much to ensure continuity. I am going to keep this equipment for years anyway.

[wettou]

Hey all, I have been reading this forum so some time but never really wrote anything but today I decided to join.

I have the 800ds and HTM1D as my three fronts and (some KEFs at the sides and back - IQ9s back, IQ8ds or IQ3 on the sides/swapping) i was thinking of adding the DS8S as my side surrounds and 805s as my backs (or even bigger if there is a point). My concern is whether those are powerful enough compared to my fronts since they look a bit "weak" (specs too). I want the best match possible (apart from 7 800Ds ofc) but I would like to hear from some owners how do they sound and how loud they are.

Advice from other people has been anything from 4 804s to 4x805s.

For amplification I am using 2x Electrocompaniet Nemos (AW600) for the 800Ds and a Bryston 14Bsst for the HTM1D (that thing sucks power!!!!). The temporary surrounds are powered by my receiver (Onkyo 905) which will be replace by a pre/pro in the future. I also plan to get either one more Nemo for the HTM1D or a AW400 so the Bryston could be moved and drive a pair of surrounds should I use towers. So what do you think?

Cool very cool pictures please :T

Electrocompaniet Nemo with 800D :T

If you have the cash I would use the same Nemo and an other 800D for the front :B

[garak]

Another thing is whether the 803Ds would go to waste as rear surround channels as part of a 7.1 setup since they are used even less than the sides in movies and maybe not at all in multichannel music. It would be great if I could test this out but I doubt any dealer could bring them over at home!

I agree, I think 803Ds would be underutilized as back surrounds because they wouldn't be used in multichannel music. That's why I think 805s would be sufficient for the back surrounds since they'd only be used in movies.

However, since you are planning to build your multichannel music library, I do think it would be worth it to have 803Ds for the side surrounds.

[wettou]

However, since you are planning to build your multichannel music library, I do think it would be worth it to have 803Ds for the side surrounds.

802 D would be a better match for 5.1 multichannel SACD:B

For the other surround back 805 are good enough not much software on 7.1 unless you use Lexicon DSP7

[JargonGR]

Well I know 802Ds would be better but then the 800D would be better and then I would need two more Nemos which would even require new power plugs and cicuits and more space and.....My limit is two 803Ds because even space wise two more 802Ds is pushing it for the sides.


wettou

I will post some picture as soon as I finish some basic placement and tiding up. Now regarding the front the HTM1D is using the same Tweeter, Midrange and Marlan head as the 800D and the Woofers of the 802D with the exception that it has one extra. It is transparent when playing to the 800Ds and if I was to fit an extra 800D it would interfere with my Projectors screen which is fixed and then I would have to place it higher than what is the best.

[ShadowZA]

Welcome to the forum, JargonGR.

I tend to go with what garak suggests. Maybe even go further and have 803D's for surrounds as well as rears. In this way you'll have diamond tweeters all around. This should be a perfect match imho. :T

[William]

....I certainly understand that all diamond tweeters would be the best and that is why I am pushing myself towards a pair of 803Ds....

Through the tests I am conducting with my KEFs I decided that I don't want dipoles at the back so the question is actually for the side surrounds and whether I would be missing immersion during movie watching without them.
Another thing is whether the 803Ds would go to waste as rear surround channels as part of a 7.1 setup since they are used even less than the sides in movies and maybe not at all in multichannel music....

Alright a fellow HTM1D owner (although mine is on backorder). I have a 5.1 setup and use 803D's for the rears. The timbre match is perfect and the mid/tweeter hight is great for reaching over HT seats.

As far as "missing immersion during movie watching without" dipole's. This is a myth. Dipole's were invented since there is no sweet spot in a movie theater and you must try and offer the same surround to the person sitting center front row and to the person sitting last row right and are a BIG compromise on SQ. HT's don't have this problem to anywhere near that degree so why use the degraded sound of a dipole? Matching monopolies are a much better choice for music as will as movies.

Also could you post some pictures of your setup.

[jericho]

Well Jargon, I have the same setup, I use 802d's for surround and 805's for back surround

[KyaDawn]

Well Jargon, I have the same setup, I use 802d's for surround and 805's for back surround

800D fronts, 802D surrounds, and 805S back surrounds? Nice! :T

Actually sounds like what I could have if I bought a pair of 800Ds to upgrade my 5.1 set-up to 7.1 :B

[JargonGR]

Some first photo although the room needs a lot of work (cabling, decoration/ seating) but it will give you an idea that could help suggestions.

[JargonGR]

Jericho do you find the 805s adequate as back surrounds? I intend to add 2x SVS PB-13 Ultras in between the two 800Ds because my KEF PSw3500 is not up to the task ofc.

In the future I hope I will move all this equipment in a dedicated room but for now this is it.

[William]

JargonGR,

Could you measure your HDM1D to the top of the tweeter and also tell me how much adjustment there is. I'm trying to see how close my HDM1D will be in hight to my HDM2D (on OEM stand).

[sikoniko]

I feel that matching amps for the front 3 channels is absolutely critical to creating a seemless soundstage. I would even go a step further and recommend matching the brand of amp for all of your channels. I had Classe for my front 3 and Rotel for my back 4. The sound was good, but I could detect a difference. When I upgraded to Classe for all channels, the sound became absolutely seemless and completely immersive. I can not longer locate the speakers. With the rotel, the speakers sort of said "here I am, notice I'm playing something" but with the Classe, its just complete immersion.

The next part of your question would be a question of good enough vs. obsessive compulsive. I have 4 SCMs's for my surrounds, that pair with 802's. I find they blend perfectly. If you are they type that will always wonder what 803D's are like, you can buy them, but you will probably never fully take advantage of your room. Especially for the back where the existing speakers a basically playing into the couches. You're loosing your low-end.

When I look at your room, not having side walls on both sides makes speaker placement a little challenging. I might be wrong, but I believe the DS8's are optimized for wall mount. You'd probably be better off going with the 805s. The other thing is you don't really want your rear speakers in the corners. Ideally, you'd place them along the back wall boundary. As the picture shows, it looks like your couches are absorbing a lot of the sound. Try placing those rears at the 1/3 points of the back wall and see if you get a better experience.

[Kal Rubinson]

Some first photo although the room needs a lot of work (cabling, decoration/ seating) but it will give you an idea that could help suggestions.

Acoustical treatments?

Kal

[JargonGR]

The height from bottom to tweeter is around 69cm with the speaker tilted upwards almost to the max. I will construct a custom base from metal (filled with sand) and maybe a piece of granite for it to lift it though.

And just a note; there is a wall at the left side almost halfway through so the left 800D is also positioned like the right one. If you take a close look at the first picture you might be able to spot the end of the wall just on the left of the temporary surround speaker where there is a gap between the couch and the wall.

I also just swapped the back (the IQ9s) with the IQ3s and placed them at the sides and aligned with fronts and there is already an improvement. The IQ3s on their bases are a bit higher. It comes down to 805s for the back surrounds though although I intend to change the couches too. As I said the room and decoration is nowhere near finished yet.

Regarding acoustical treatments that is a thing that I would like suggestions too but they have to blend nice with the room since this is also a living room. The only reason all this stuff is allowed in there by my wife is because I agreed to rent a house without a basement so I don't disappear down there. In the future when I build my own house there will be a dedicated room of course.

[William]

The height from bottom to tweeter is around 69cm with the speaker tilted upwards almost to the max...

Thanks, that's fantastic news for me. I assume that I'll loose about an inch for carpet spikes and that will be the perfect hight for my screen. I'm glad to see that the B&W site is a little off and I won't have to elevate it (or is it levitate with that monster :P ).

[wettou]

Some first photo although the room needs a lot of work (cabling, decoration/ seating) but it will give you an idea that could help suggestions.

Nice, I see a single chair in the middle of the room is that just for the picture?

Your speakers should be at least 4 feet away from the side walls and three feet away front the front wall:T

[JargonGR]

I am using this chair actually and I might buy one extra. It is a quite famous chair actually that was a gift made by Le Corbusier. Here is a closeup picture http://purecontemporary.blogs.com/ph...recliner_1.jpg and here is a link if you want to buy it http://www.dwr.com/product/lc4-chais...ortby=ourPicks

[misterdoggy]

Nice Room

Surrounds for me are least important. Don't you have 804S'. If so You are good as you are and could only improve with room treatments as Kal said.

Theres lots of walls that are empty and lots of sound waves bouncing around. You could break up the flat walls with some sound stuff.

Truly you would get more bang for your buck than 804s to 803Ds IMHO.

You would be really surprised happily

[wettou]

I am using this chair actually and I might buy one extra. It is a quite famous chair actually that was a gift made by Le Corbusier. Here is a closeup picture http://purecontemporary.blogs.com/ph...recliner_1.jpg and here is a link if you want to buy it http://www.dwr.com/product/lc4-chais...ortby=ourPicks

Yes I know Roche Bobois sells a knock off

In the same venue I like this better, I am a wood guy

http://www.thosmoser.com/product.det...roduct_id=1597 :T

[JargonGR]

Well regarding the treatments that is a sure step to take since the walls are indeed empty but I just moved in this house 6 months ago. I will check locally and see what decorative AT panels or the like I can find.

misterdoggy

I don't have the 804s my surrounds are KEF IQ9s and IQ3s (also have a pair of IQ8DS) so they don't match well. I found a deal for a pair of 805s for the back but at the same time I am waiting for info on a pair of ex demo 803Ds at less than half the price. I would not normally get them used and I bought my fronts brand new but since they will be surrounds I don't care if they are unscratched. I will know this week.

[misterdoggy]

803D's at 1/2 price is hard to argue with

Go get em before they disappear

[wettou]

A pair of ex demo 803Ds at less than half the price

Nice they might be under warranty still :T

[JargonGR]

If they ever answer my e-mails I will!

[misterdoggy]

If they ever answer my e-mails I will!

I was always the belief that you should buy speakers new, but I recently bought a pair of 804S' from a guy who said they were perfect, and they were and it turned out happy.

I'm wary about dealer speakers, because they see a lot of hours, and wires coming on and off and sometimes turned too loud in a demo etc etc. I think I would prefer a private person rather than a dealer personally.

CD players, Speakers, things with moving parts are best bought new, but a private person who takes care of their stuff like you and me can be fine too

[JargonGR]

hmmm now you got me worried and even half price is not too little for a "lemon"..

[misterdoggy]

hmmm now you got me worried and even half price is not too little for a "lemon"..

Usually speakers work or they don't work, so if its a dealer and he has to offer a guarantee, you should be OK......

[JargonGR]

Well I proceeded with the 803Ds that are actually a B&W Demo and will come sealed straight from them and with full 5 year warranty so I could not pass up.

Now since my budget due to all those purchases is depleted I will have to wait till I get a third Nemo AW600 for the HTM1D and put the Bryston 14BSST on the 803Ds. Till then I will have to drive them with an Onkyo 905 and crossover high enough to the sub so I reduce the stress to the crappy AV Amp.

[Marco Lisi]

All my respect goes to Wettou on this subject. He is using 5 identical speakers. I'm going to sell my HTM1D, DS8S and SCMS. Rear speakers are to "small" in comparison to my 800D fronts. Even the HTM1D is no match for the mighty 800D. The best solution would be using a 800D as center. The 800D is in all area's the better speaker over the HTM1D. It's not the most practical solution, I know. Personally I consider this as a "cost is no object" solution. Depending on the room one should opt for 5 times 805 or 804 or 803....

[JargonGR]

Yes sure but some of us also want to enjoy 2 channel music as well and by going with 5 803Ds for example it would not be the same.

And taking a closer look at the HTM1D it is not a bad match at all to the 800D. It wears exactly the same tweeter, midrange driver, and it has one extra bass driver of the same size as the 802Ds. So in effect it is something between an 802D and 800D with the main difference lying on the 3 8" bass drivers versus 2 x 10" bass drivers of the 800D. In theory even bass output could be higher in db while the 800D could go a bit lower, however we have to consider cabin sizes and placement as well as cabin design and ventilation. None the less, the HTM1D is very close to the 800D while dare I say more than an 802D? It would be really interesting to conduct a test where two HTM1Ds are used for L&R and AB them to 800Ds and 802Ds (yeah dream on).

Yet, I think that for home cinema applications which is the reason B&W made HTM1D those differences may as well disappear (diminish?) the moment you put two Subwoofers like (SVS PB13-Ultra) and cross them over properly.

For multichannel music sure 5 or 7 speakers of exactly the same model are much more critical but not to the extend that any other option is useless. I guess proper acoustic treatment and Advanced Room Correction software (like Audyssey) can also help to create an excellent experience. Maybe no the best possible but really good.

[Marco Lisi]

You are so right! It's very hard to combine stereo and multichannel in one system. If you do listen to 2.0 a lot, then your 800D's are really the best choice. To create a HT sound without stress, I think all speakers should be towers.

About the HTM1D. The price gives a hint: the speaker hangs between a 802D and the 800D. But...the big difference is: the 800D is a no compromise design. The rest of the 800 line-up are downsized products. The biggest difference betweens the 800D and the 802D/HTM1D is: FILTERING.

There is also the problem of speaker alignment. Even when you tilt the center, the sound will never be the same as from 3 identical towers. All tweeters should be at the same height. When you have to lift the center (stand or table), you can even use a tower, not (mind the projection screen)?

[JargonGR]

Well I also plan to elevate the HTM1D higher than it is so the tweeter comes almost at the same level as my 800Ds. When this is done I will report back if it was worth it since it is going to cost some.

Actually the ideal would be to be at the same level exactly but this is not possible in this room so the closer possible is my best alternative. Another solution is would be an AT (Acoustically Transparent) screen and place the speakers behind but hell NOT those speakers! I want to be able to look at them. And then while you improve the imersiveness of the movies you do lose some picture quality and maybe some sound quality (the screen in front of the speakers) as well.

You do realize that most normal people would think we are crazy knowing we are talking about the comprise an HTM1D is?

Ideally, in the future I and in a dedicated room I might be able to buy and fit 3 more 800Ds although such an option can get extremely expensive considering the amps needed as well.

[wettou]

Ideally, in the future I and in a dedicated room I might be able to buy and fit 3 more 800Ds although such an option can get extremely expensive considering the amps needed as well.

Yes that is why I went with three 802D and no it is not a dedicated room

[Relentless]

Well I also plan to elevate the HTM1D higher than it is so the tweeter comes almost at the same level as my 800Ds. When this is done
Ideally, in the future I and in a dedicated room I might be able to buy and fit 3 more 800Ds although such an option can get extremely expensive considering the amps needed as well.

I can see the advantages of having 3 800D's across the front but I really believe 802D's would be plenty for side and rear surrounds.

[Marco Lisi]

I can see the advantages of having 3 800D's across the front but I really believe 802D's would be plenty for side and rear surrounds.

In a world where money is no issue 7 800D's would do just nice 8O

[Relentless]

In a world where money is no issue 7 800D's would do just nice 8O

Even in a cost is no issue situation. I don't see what you will gain using 800D's over 802D's as surrounds. 802D's have a smaller footprint and would be easier to find somewhere to place them.

[JargonGR]

Well right now I think I can live with 803Ds as surrounds and will take it from there. As I said after that I want to get finished with amplification and the SUBs. I will try and get another NEMO for the center channel (or a pair if a good deal and play with dual NEMOs on the 800Ds) and a nice pre-amp. I am using a Bryston 14BSST on the HTM1D right now and I plan to use this on the 803DS. One ideal day I will have all same monoblocks for the surrounds also.


For the subs I will certainly buy an SVS PB13Ultra to test and if good I will get a second, if not I will sell and restart. I want to test this sub though at home.

[KyaDawn]

I can see the advantages of having 3 800D's across the front but I really believe 802D's would be plenty for side and rear surrounds.

I agree, 802Ds would be more than fine as surrounds for 800Ds, even for multi-channel music, and definitely more than fine for home theater. I do see an advantage of the 802Ds as surrounds over the 803Ds, however. The more auditioning I did, the more difference I can hear between two. The Marlan head housing the diamond tweeter makes a big difference, and the 802Ds would be better matched for the 800Ds than the 803Ds in this case.

[ShadowZA]

... I do see an advantage of the 802Ds as surrounds over the 803Ds, however. The more auditioning I did, the more difference I can hear between two. The Marlan head housing the diamond tweeter makes a big difference, and the 802Ds would be better matched for the 800Ds than the 803Ds in this case.

One potential benefit of using 803D's as surrounds (as I am doing) is their height factor. In my case, the 803D tweeters are able to direct sound over the back of my couch. My previous surrounds (N804) could not achieve this.

[JargonGR]

Well I really thought about it before proceeding with the 803Ds as surrounds. Compared to 803Ds they will fit nice space-wise right now as bigger speakers would require me to change one couch (i.e. both of them) which I want to happen at another time. Secondly, I will also grab a pair 805s right now to complete the 7.1 system for movies without the need to change furniture either while at the same time all B&W will sound much better (I hope) than using the KEFs (will sell to a friend). To finish off the job with the speakers I will also get to SVS PB-13Ultras.

Then 6-8 months down the line I will get another pair or one (depending on deal) of Electrocompaniet NEMOs to have the same amps for the front sound stage (800D, HTM1D) and free my Bryston 14BSST for the 803Ds. This step I will have to think about whether it should precede the Subs purchase.

Further in the future, I might consider moving the 803Ds as back surrounds and get a pair of 802Ds for the sides to improve multichannel music performance even further.But before I do that I will have finished with amps, pre/pros and subs and do it whenever I am ready. After all this is the beauty of this hobby, you are never done!

[KyaDawn]

One potential benefit of using 803D's as surrounds (as I am doing) is their height factor. In my case, the 803D tweeters are able to direct sound over the back of my couch. My previous surrounds (N804) could not achieve this.

That's true, the 803Ds are about an inch taller than the 802Ds, and about 5 inches taller than the N804s. Thankfully, I have a low sofa where my 805Ss on stands can fully peer over, even the bass port. As I have a circular sofa against the back wall which allows small spaces by the corners, the 805S is about as big as I can fit as rears. Probably I could fit the 804S as well, but then one of the woofers would be firing directly into the leather.

Don't get me wrong, I think any of the 800 series 805S and above would work fine as surrounds for the 800D, and certainly the 803D would be amazing. I was just looking at it from a close-to-ideal perspective, and I think the 802Ds would be more than fine as surrounds for the 800D, particularly when the acuity of one's hearing is diminished when the sound is coming from the rear. Probably it would be difficult to hear any significant difference in timber between the 800Ds fronts and the 803Ds rears as well, particularly with home theater, but I expect it would be even more difficult with the 802Ds, even with multi-channel music.