Building New HT System

[headshrinker2]

Greetings all,
I am currently configuring an new/upgraded home theater setup. I was previously using an NAD T 761 Surround Sound Receiver w/ B&W DM303 (front) and LCR3 (center). Mish mosh surrounds. PSB Alpha Subsonic 5 subwoofer.

I am currently choosing my upgrade path. Local B&W dealer suggested that I consider upgrading my speakers to 686 bookshelfs. For decor reasons, also considering B&W in-walls for surrounds.

Any compelling reason to upgrade the PSB subwoofer?

This same dealer had Integra and Marantz receivers. Worth buying Integra over Onkyo? How does Marantz fit in here?

Set-up is going in a 17x17 FT family room w/ lots of of audio and sonic compromises. I'm trying to end up with a "sweet spot" setup that does the job well on music and movies- don't need high performance.

Your thoughts?

Thanks very much in advance.

[htsteve]

headshrinker2,

First, welcome to the forum! Hopefully your upgrade experience will go quite well. Many of us have been in your shoes, trying to integrate an HT into a family room. Below I'll list the general order of where to spend your budget.

Speakers
Electronics
Sources
Cables

Also, you did mention that this was an HT. Do you do any 2 channel listening?

The 17X17 room is pretty good sized. Are the ceilings elevated? I'm trying to figure out ho much volume you have there. Are there 4 walls (i.e. there isn't an 'open' wall into another room).

Are you planning to use the DM303's as rears? That would keep the B&W theme and save money in the short run.

With respect to your sub, how do you like it today? Does it give you good slam? Is it tight and musical? Your PSB appears design for small to medium rooms. It might be something to be upgraded. Dealers often have demo model subs for sale. That could be a way to upgrade and save money versus a new sub. However, I'd put more money into the front three speakers, see below.

The 686's and matching center channel will represent a very nice upgrade. However, since you have a pretty good space to fill, you might consider going to the 684 towers. They will have better bass than the 686's, especially if you are not planning to upgrade the sub.

As for receivers, I've listened to both brands in the past. I'd give the sonic edge to the Marantz. However, it's been awhile and it's best to listen to thier current offerings for yourself.


Hope this helps.

[headshrinker2]

Thanks Steve

Steve,
Thanks for the warm welcome and detailed reply.

Yes, the family room has raised A-frame ceilings. The TV wall is a 1/2 wall. The opening leads into the kitchen.

No strong opinions on the PSB Subsonic 5 subwoofer. I see that it received a significant upgrade in the Subsonic5i. I haven't used it much in the past few several years- I have been listening to my bookshelfs without a sub. I remember the Subsonic 5 being in the $400-500 range. When my HT system was up and running, I felt the sub "did the job" for both movies and music, but did not inspire. Any sense if the B&W subs in a similar price range would represent any sig upgrade?

Thanks for the suggestion of possible using the 303's as rears to keep the sonic character throughout the system. That certainly makes sense. I'm not sure if I have a good spot for them in the family room and I have been considering in-walls for surrounds. I'm going to take my 303's to my B&W dealer and compare them myself to the 686's. The various reviews I have read on the 686's were nothing to sing about.

I heard a demo system in a small room w/ a Marantz receiver and the 686's in front. It certainly did a nice job, though I personally found nothing inspirationable about it. If I'm going to spend the money on low end good stuff, I would like the system to "sing" in some way. As I have some hearing loss, I do not plan on buying a high performance system. I guess I am looking for a good "sweet spot" system- both visually and audio.

Thanks again.

[emig5m]

I'm going to take my 303's to my B&W dealer and compare them myself to the 686's. The various reviews I have read on the 686's were nothing to sing about.

I heard a demo system in a small room w/ a Marantz receiver and the 686's in front. It certainly did a nice job, though I personally found nothing inspirationable about it.

Hmmm.... Interesting. I've had in my home every single model of the 600 series except the 686 (which means I've never listened to them - I only seriously demo speakers at home anymore). I thought every single speaker sounded fantastic - even the little 685 bookshelves sounded fantastic on their own as front mains. I personally never read reviews on the 685's, so I didn't really have any expectations, just decided what the hell, before I hook them up for rear duty try them out for shits n giggles as mains - simply amazing sound for such a small speaker. No I'm lying, I did have expectations... I expected to never be impressed by the sound of such a small speaker coming off of huge 400 watt Cerwin Vega 15" earth shakers, lol.

I had almost thought when playing the first song on them why did I waste money on the 683 floorstanders when I could of went 685s all the way around and had perfect matching channels for surround with the great clarity I wasn't used to before with the Cerwin Vegas. Then I plugged back in the 683 and yes, you can notice the FST is clearer and more open than the 684/685 (I wasn't going to assume the 685 could match it in bass which it doesn't, but pretty damn good bass for a small speaker).

Anyway... It would of been nice if I did try a pair of 686s so I could tell you exactly how they compared to the other 600 series because quite frankly, all the 600 series sounded nearly identical to each other, just you get a little more strength in the lower bass with the 684 over the 685 and the 683 gets you a even clearer and more open mid that's easily noticeable switching back and forth with yet another jump in lower and stronger bass - definite pick for the highest performance for critical two-channel music listening which is my first priority even though I might actually use them in HT more often. But overall they all sound nearly the same (you would probably have a hard time telling the difference in HT with all the speakers crossed over to a sub) with great clarity and upper end tonal match and all with nothing to complain about in the bass department for their sizes - they all sound bigger than they look - especially the 685 bookshelf. Not the absolute highest performing of the bunch (the 683 obviously is), but the most impressive of the lineup to me! :T

I was considering the 686s for my rear surrounds but I liked the fact that the 685 was closer SPL matched to the 683/HTM61. My personal opinion is you shouldn't bring your speakers to the store to compare, but bring the new ones home to compare on your own system in your own room with your own acoustics. To me how a speaker sounds at a dealer in their room on their equipment doesn't count for nothing to me. It's how they sound in your room with your electronics that really counts. Not to mention the distraction of a store environment - salesmen breathing down your neck, other customers, don't have your entire music/movie collection at your disposal to listen and try at your own leisure. Say, if I would of tried to compare the 684 to the 683 at the dealer, I might of been too distracted with the store environment to be able to tell the difference in the midrange - heck I didn't even find the 801D overly impressive when me and a friend listened to them at the same dealer years ago but I was blown away by the sound of the 600 series in my own home - go figure.

And as far as subs go, my dealer actually steered me any from B&W and recommended Velodyne (I wound up with a MiniVee - I always wanted a Sunfire though - me and a friend was playing with a Sunfire True-Sub and that thing was literally dropping surround speakers off the walls at the store!!! :rofl: )

[headshrinker2]

emig5m

Thanks very much for the reply! You've given me much to think about. I especially appreciate the suggestion to audition speakers in my own room with my electronics.

I auditioned the B&W 685's today and liked them quite a bit more than the 686's. I also really enjoyed a tower speaker in the 600 series.

I went to hear a pair of Paradigm Monitor 20's bookshelf speakers too, but they did not have these in stock. I did hear a pair of Monitor 100's that were quite nice.

Take care

[headshrinker2]

Still looking...

Hi everyone. Still auditioning speakers. Spend a very enjoyable morning at a local stereo shop. Hope it will be able to stay open. The other high end shop closed this year.

I was listening to a range of speakers (with different purpose and philosophy, of course).

These included B&W 686, 685, CM1, and 705.

The CM's, while clearly superior to the 600 series, somehow did not excite or involve me in the listening. The 705's.. they were another story

Still planning on putting my existing DM303's in the rear for surrounds.

Had a chance to listen with an AV receiver, and then separates (i.e. a nice Rotel 2-channel amp). Really fell in love once I switched to the Rotel. I understand that I would really need to get a good amplifier if I swing for the 705's.

Currently leaning towards an Integra 6.9 AV receiver. I will mostly likely use my Rotel multichannel amp bridged for stereo.

I am still struggling to make a final choice about receivers. It is either going to be Onkyo or Rotel. An Onkyo 706 is currently going for only $500 on Amazon, vs the $900 + from my local shop. Given the limitations of receivers, do folks think the Integra is worth the extra cash? I have heard so many conflicting opinions, it is difficult to decipher. I don't really care about small difference in price, but if performance is comparable, I would rather throw the additional $400-500 into my main speakers.

Thanks for any/all thoughts.

[htsteve]

headshrinker2,

I'm not surprised you like the 705's. I had them and they were very good. Excellent detail, soundstage, and pretty decent bass. If you get these, I would agree they need better power than most receivers. If you had mainstream receiver, an amp is probably advisable (this depends on the receiver). However, you could get a Rotel receiver and go with the 705's. That would be very nice. The Rotel sound will be markedly better than the Onkto or Integra. And it's amps could run the 705's very well. A used Rotel reciever might be the answer here. Something like these would fit the bill:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?miscrcvr&1232579079&/Rotel-rsx-1056-a/v-rcvr-

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?miscrcvr&1231977326&/Rotel-RSX-1056-5.1-Surround-So

My order of where to spend the money is this:

Speakers (the biggest bang for the buck)
Amp or higher level receiver
Receiver or pre-pro


Hope this helps.

[emig5m]

The CM's, while clearly superior to the 600 series, somehow did not excite or involve me in the listening. The 705's.. they were another story

Interesting. I've yet to listen to any B&W outside the 600 series except the 801D years ago and that was only for one song that I never previously heard before so could you explain the best in words what made the 705 sound better over the CM and how the CM was superior to the 685's?

[WI Rotel]

Don't forget to audition the XT2! A system of all XT2 with a PV1 (or2) is an extremely eye pleasing, excellent sounding AV system that will not break the bank. Don't listen to the XT2 or any other small monitor W/O a sub. Make sure you listen to the "system" as an ensamble since that is the way you are going to use them anyway. If you are opting for a receiver get the most powerfull you can find, the XT2 is a very inefficient speaker (85db). BTW the XTC is a fantastic center.

[headshrinker2]

WI Rotel

Thanks for suggesting the XT2's.

[headshrinker2]

enig5m

Interesting. I've yet to listen to any B&W outside the 600 series except the 801D years ago and that was only for one song that I never previously heard before so could you explain the best in words what made the 705 sound better over the CM and how the CM was superior to the 685's?

As compared to the 685's, I found the CM to have tighter and more defined bass, and a cleaner treble. It was punchy and energetic. Soundstage was deeper w/ better imaging. Especialy during complex passages of music, the 685's could be a bit muddy. By contrast, the CM's were more detailed. Overall, the CM's had a surprisingly powerful prescence given their relatively small appearance. I can't explain why, but I actually preferred the 686's to the 685's. After reading lots of reviews, I wasn't expecting that.

To my ears, the 705 had a gorgeous and wonderfully smoooooth midrange. Voice and acoustic instruments were fantastic on these speakers. There was not much bass coming out of these speakers and I could imagine they would be happily paired with a good subwoofer. I was told that the 705's really need good amplification to bring out the bass and midrange. I only listened to the 705's for a brief period morning. My ears were getting fatigued.. and we were hit by a snow storm so I needed to leave. I look forward to listening to them further.

I'm sure others could describe all this better.. but there you go!

[headshrinker2]

htsteve

Thanks for the suggestions. I used to own a few Rotel amps- one stereo and one 6-channel (RV-956AX). I sold the stereo amp last year- now I'm kicking myself for that. I may try and use the multichannel amp with whatever AV Receiver I end up purchasing.

I am seriously considering your suggestion to first spend the money on the speakers. I am opening up my budget for my mains.

headshrinker2,

I'm not surprised you like the 705's. I had them and they were very good. Excellent detail, soundstage, and pretty decent bass. If you get these, I would agree they need better power than most receivers. If you had mainstream receiver, an amp is probably advisable (this depends on the receiver). However, you could get a Rotel receiver and go with the 705's. That would be very nice. The Rotel sound will be markedly better than the Onkto or Integra. And it's amps could run the 705's very well. A used Rotel reciever might be the answer here. Something like these would fit the bill:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?miscrcvr&1232579079&/Rotel-rsx-1056-a/v-rcvr-

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?miscrcvr&1231977326&/Rotel-RSX-1056-5.1-Surround-So

My order of where to spend the money is this:

Speakers (the biggest bang for the buck)
Amp or higher level receiver
Receiver or pre-pro


Hope this helps.