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I am not sure if it is clipping as I am not too familiar with the term.On certian dvd or bluray disks when there is a abundance of base the base speakers in the 683's seem to stutter.Is that clipping.I have 683's fronts,HTM62 center,685's rears and 2X ASW300 Sub's.This only happens if I have the fronts set to large.Ussually I listen to HT with all set to small and no problem.But when I set the fronts(only) to Large in HT The problem occurs.It happens mainly when there is a lot of long drawn out base .My current HT receiver is a Sony 4300 ES.I did have this all paired up with a Rotel 1057 receiver and the fronts running on a 2 channel 1080 Amp...200 watts per channel.I am not sure if this happened with the Rotel setup but I think it did .Had to sell the Rotel gear due to a bankrupcy...ouch...and am left with the Sony for now.I know the solution would be to leave all set to small.With set to small I have the crossovers set as follows.Mains 60hhz,center 80hz,rears 80hz.I have the subs set to run off the receivers crossover settings.The reason I set the fronts to large sometimes is that it gives a more powerfull presentation.But alas then I run into the problem I have.Can anyone offer a solution other than...set to small and tell me if what I am getting is clipping or maybe another term which I am not familar with is dropout.Thanks for any help.
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Probably not clipping. What is happening is you are overdriving the bass. You are trying to reproduce notes that are too low for the woofer at too high a volume, as expected this could damage our speakers. Lay off the bass or the volume a little. Clipping usually blows your tweeters and occurs when an amp simply doesn't have the current to complete a musical peak and thus chops off the top of the peak leading to distortion. With my XT4 I have opted to simply set them to small, the subs are not stressed with big low frequencies at high volumes. On the XT's what you describe would happen when reproducing test tones at 20HZ. -
Ok .That makes sense.Sort of pisses me off that the B&W's does not handle the bass I am trying to send at the volume I use as I do like my movies to shake the house.I have a pair of speakers in my bedroom that I built with 15 inch woofers and they handle whatever I throw at it and with less power.But I guess what can you expect from such small woofers In the 683's.I can get the volume I like with the B&W's I just have to set to small and use no bass boost.Should I up the crossover on the fronts to 80hz thus reducing the bass further as I have dual subs?And let the subs do the work.The reason I like to go large even with subs is it seems as if you lose something from the mains when set to small.Maybe its just me.Oh Well Thanks.Comment
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I have my subs set to 60HZ. Another positive issue with allowing the subs handle the lower registers is that it relieves the receiver from having to do all the work , thus, its less apt to overheat or clip. Although many receivers tout the capacity to handle a whole surround system to X level, the overwhelming majority (essentially all except the biggest and most expensive)don't do a very good job when driving multiple speakers, even less so if the speakers are inefficient, that is why separate amps make such a big difference. BTW, don't be pissed at the 685's They are monitors and as such they are not meant to handle deep powerful bassOriginally posted by Opus007
Their forte should be highs and mids. Remember their "woofer" is really a midrange it doesn't have the diameter to move a lot of air (which is what a woofer is all about). Your 2 sub solution is the way to go. Enjoy! If you are a bass hog, crank up the sub volume they will give you all the bass you want :T
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I kind of had the same problem with my 683's at loud volumes. At certain frequencies a crackling sound would come from them-for both movies and 2 channel music. The solution I found was your amp/receiver must be able to drive down to the 3 ohm mark-as per the 683 spec, minimal impedance 3 ohm. Luckily my amp - the arcam avr300, has a impedance switch on it for 8ohm or 4ohm. As soon as I changed it to 4 ohm-problem solved. Also if your amp isn't high current it won't be able to drive them properly at higher volumes, and thirdly if you are using cheap(lamp cord) speaker wire it will act as a bottle neck for the signal/current going to your speakers. I agree with what you say about the "large" setting. As far as I know, the large setting is better - the speaker gets more information, as long as the crossover is set right, you should be fine. I experimented with both the large and small settings. The large sounds a lot better to me. I was told by my dealer that the small setting is only for small home theater in a box type speakers. The b and w's should be able to handle the large setting for not just the fronts, but for all the speakers. hope this helps
. As far as bass, when i listen to music 2 channel-no sub-direct mode, there's plenty of bass coming out of the 683's. At times I have to remind myself that the sub isn't on!
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The mains are 683's which are supposed to be full range speakers.Originally posted by WI Roteldon't be pissed at the 685's They are monitors and as such they are not meant to handle deep powerful bass :TComment
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I thought the 600 series was 8 ohm.Can I run them at 4 ohm and if so is there a chance of damaging something.Also and unfortunatly my wiring is all monster cable 12 gauge expensive stuff.I am not a fan of monster cable but the dealer talked me into buying it.Overpriced but good wire.The crackling sound is exactly what I hear.You hit that right on the nose as I was really lost for words on how to describe it.As for the receiver it is 110 watts per channel @ 8 ohms and 100 watts per channel @ 4 ohms and of course in reality is far less.AlsoI do not get the crackling when listening to 2 channel music with fronts set to large and not using the subs.I do listen at high volume but probably not as high as with HT movies.Originally posted by newguy987Comment
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True, they are a 8 ohm speaker, but that doesn't mean they stay at 8 ohms all the time. Depending on all sorts of factors, the ohm's are always changing-not a constant 8 ohm-in the case of the 683's they can dip to 3 ohms as stated. The crackling noise is caused when the ohm's drop below 8, most commonly when the mids/bass kick in, and at high volumes. If the amp can't handle it, you get the crackling noise-or the amp might even go into protection mode. Are your speakers bi-wired?, bi-amped? Being a sony(reciever) I doubt it's a high current amp-which is probably the biggest problem. The 4 ohm setting-if you have one-will not damage your speakers. A lot of people on this forum have their gear set up at 4 ohm instead of 8. I too fell into the monster cable trap...what a waste of money.....you could try cat5e cable instead, 2 runs to each speaker(one for + and one for -) not sure I can say too much about cables....I think it's one of the rules of the forum. anyways if you can, give it a try at the 4 ohm setting and listen for a difference...plus your amp will run cooler as a result too.Comment
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The impedance rating is a "nominal" spec so you can match it to an amplifier (kind of bull :roll: ). Impedance is a dynamic measurement so the actual impedance that a speaker can require is pretty much anything! I'm not sure about the 683's but the XT's are notoriously inefficient and a very difficult load. They are best served with stout amplification, note that systems that run just fine in stereo can run into problems rather quickly when in surround even if you are using subs.Originally posted by Opus007Comment
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Ok I set the receiver to 4 ohms and played some blurays disks that I know the spots where the crackling happens and it still happens when set to Large.The volume was around +1 ,if I back it down to -2 it does not happen.It also happens on the center channel when set to large.
Guess maybe a new receiver is in order.What I did do is set up a second set of speakers.Legend Audio fronts,JBL Center and left the 2 B&W rears alone.I put the second fronts on the front B channel of the receiver and removed the B&W center and replaced it with JBL.Then I set the fronts and center to large and cranked the volume to +5 using the Legend Audio's off of the A/B switch and there was no crackling ,no breakups nor any distortion.The legend Audio fronts are rated at 200 watts and are mid size towers.It was very loud.And the difference in the Legend Audio and the B&W is apperant but not that much of difference.I actually enjoyed watching transformers at a high volume and not having to worry about damaging the B&W's because I do love the B&W's especially for music ...they can not be beat.So for now I will leave this set up and when I want to listen to music will use the A/B switch on the receiver to use the B&W's.
Any ideas on a new receiver.Like I said .I had the Rotel 1057 receiver and 1080 amp...and although it did sound good I always felt they did not do the B&W's justice and that I could get more out of them.
Also If I get a new receiver would it solve my problem with the B&W's crackling.Thanks.Comment
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Sounds to me like you maybe bottoming out the woofers. Do they go clack clack clack quite quickly (10-30 times per second)? If you feed the woofers lots of power at low frequencies they will bottom out. I discovered this by mistake with my 703 as I was trying to resolve a low frequency feedback problem with my turntable.
If you watch the woofers while they are doing this I'll bet you see them moving around wildly.
My guess is that the blueray movie you were watching had lots of low bass, and that you had the volume loud. The 683 could not reproduce that bass, but was trying as hard as it could. If this is the case, a new receiver will not help. You either need to set the 683 to small, or, turn down the volume. Or get different speakers.Comment
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I am not sure it is the speakers, a friend of mine has the 603 S2 and they work fine with bass.
He likes to keep them large in the config but is using an AVR that can handle 3ohms (Onkyo 905).
Regarding speakers if you look at the manufacturers website and the specification of a speaker they will show the nominal ohm, and in brackets the minimum.
For the 683 the minimum ohm rating is 3ohms and this can be difficult for AVRs to handle at loud film levels.
I just had a look at the specification of the Sony 4000ES and my concern is that it does not state on the specification what the AVR is stable to with regards to minimum ohms.
It may have a 4ohm setting but this does not guarantee it will be able to handle loud music/films when the speakers drop to 3ohms.
I think the choices you have is to either configure the speakers as small with a crossover starting at 80hz (and then lower this in increments to 60 to see if problem is resolved/occurs, this bypasses the speakers requirement of 3ohms and that is what you want to do), or test a different AVR that states it can handle 3ohms or supports THX (THX requires 3ohms support, or it might be THX Ultra not sure).
Hope this helps
OrbComment
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Yes they go clack , clack very quickly.Almost sounds like baffles have been put on them.And they are moving around very fast.I had the fronts set to small and 60 hz.I had the center and rears set to small and 80 hz.These settings elimante the problem.But if I add any basss tone to either center or mains the problen comes back.My test disk is a bluray ..transformers disk.At the end of the movie when the helicopter comes in and the thumping of the helicopters roters is where it happens.Also on Lord of the Rings dvd The two Towers where Frodo has been captured and the big giant bird that the cloaked bad guys fly's...when his wings flap(lots of bass) it happens.
The solution is to set all to small and add no bass.But of course that is not the solution I am looking for.
To me it is ironic that even though these are not the top of line B&W speakers...they are a well made ,excellent sounding speakers from a top notch company.
I also had this problem when I had the Rotel 1057,Rotel 1080 Amp.When I had this setup I was also using the Sony 4300 ES as a pre to the Rotel for the video and audio codecs.So I had it set up With the 4300ES preouts to the Rotel 1057 multichannel inputs and then the front preouts of the 1057 to the 1080 Amp.I never set anything to 4 ohm...but it still did happen in this configuration.
I am sort of at a loss on what to do next.When I talked to my dealer his solution was turn the volume down and set everything to small sub.I have cheaper speakers that If I use them...I can set everything to large and blast away and no problems.I think I will contact B&W next wekk but am afraid I will get the same response that I got from my dealer.Anymore ideas.Thanks.Comment
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It would be interesting to somehow find out at what frequency this is happening. My thinking is that if it's still happening when your crossover is at 80htz then it must be above 80htz. A quick experiment would be to keep bumping the crossover up 90htz,100htz etc. and see if it's still happening. For bass that intense I would assume that the subs would be doing all the work-the whole point of the crossover. What are your subs crossover levels at? Also leave the bass tone alone, let the subs do the work-especially the center channel. Thats all I can think of for now...as for why the cheaper speakers don't do it, I'm at a loss to be honest. perhaps they have a different sensitivity, like the good ol cerwin vega's! Is there any chance you could borrow/try out a different receiver/amp just to confirm the problem still happens with a better quality amp? I am willing to bet that your avr just can't handle the demand the 683's have when you add bass+volume. In either case were you bi-wired, bi-amped? something else to try if nothing else seems to work.Comment
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Here is somthing I just came across which contradicts my theory for wanting speakers set to large. It makes sense to me see what you thinkComment
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Weird, I have my entire 600 series system set to large (683/HTM61/685) and even with a 200watt Emotiva power amp I played the Transformers Blu Ray loud and don't get any distortion. I did find out soon on that they are a little demanding with bass heavy tracks at volume when my Yamaha RX-663 would go into protection mode. But even then I never heard any distortion, the receiver would just shut down, lol.
Oh and by the way, I also think it sounds better when set to large. Maybe the receiver just doesn't have the current for the ohm drop and is clipping? Because I came from big volume high efficiency high power speakers (15" Cerwin Vegas with a efficiency rating of 102dB 1w/1m and a 400watt power handling) and if the 600 series wasn't capable of putting out some good volume without breaking up you'd think I'd be the first one to complain about it, lol.Comment
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Thanks all for all the help .Without your guys help I would not of found my problem.One of two problems I found.On the sony when I use cinema A it greatly enhances the bass and sound effects.Two I had the bass turned up to +8 so that was really throwing a extreme amount of bass to the fronts when set to large.So I backed off the bass to 0 and tried my tests without the cinema A mode on and still I had crackling.So I took off the front grills which are very cheaply made and re-did my test dvd to watch the woofers. And this time there was no crackling.To make a long story short part of the problem was the front grills vibrating at high volumes.And the other having the bass turned up to +8. So now I have the the amp set to 4ohms(runs cooler) I have the cinema A mode on and fronts set to large and Cranked it where the woofers were dancing away and no problems without any distortion or crackling and plenty of bass to boot. I put the grills back on and retried and at loud volumes they vibrate.So will leave them off when I plan on cranking it.I wouldnt think a +8 on the bass would of made a difference but I guess with the cinema A mode and the enhancements it does.THanks Again....A happy camper again..but still time for a upgrade on the receiver or maybe a Amp.Comment
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As a follow up when I went to put the speaker grills back on I found that the left one has 3 pins broken on it.Never noticed it before.When I bought the 683's they were floor models so will be asking the dealer for a new grill.Thanks Again.I fell like a dummy.Happy Turkey Day.Comment
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Yea, every single set of 600 series on my local dealers floor has broken pins on the grills - from the 685's right up to the 683's. You really have to be careful when removing the grills.Originally posted by Opus007Comment
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Emig5m ...How do like the Emotiva Amp.I am considering getting the XPA-5 and so far all I have read has been really positive.Originally posted by emig5mComment
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Glad you got it sorted out
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Indeed, kinda funny that all of us forgot the trusty grill - have the same problem myself with one speaker
Glad it is resolved as it can be annoying.
Have a good weekend all.
OrbComment
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Ignore...problem solved
RussComment
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The left main was the one that war really vibrating.I inspected the the right grill as sometimes but not as frequent would I hear the problem from it and it has 1 pin missing completly.Unlike the left grill where the pins were stuck in the cabinets the right one has the pin completly missing which leads me to believe that it was never there.Next time I buy floor models I will inspect better.Comment
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Well I haven't owned a lot of power amps to compare so I'm probably not the person to ask but on the other hand I doubt it can be beat in its price range. I mainly bought it to take out a possible bottleneck in my system where I was running my receiver into protection mode. The bass seems like it has more "weight" to it but otherwise it sounds pretty much identical to the Yamaha's amps which both sounded light years better than the two Sony receivers I had. :E I'd probably notice much more of a difference if I dropped back to the receivers amps.Originally posted by Opus007Comment
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