Help Choosing 7 Ch. Amp for 6 series HT?

[COhifi]

Hey Guys,

I am upgrading my system and need some advice on a good amp to pair with what I already have. I know this is a similar thread to a couple others, but I think different enough to post.

Currently my set up is as follows:
Receiver: Denon 2808ci
Speakers: All B&W
Center: htm61
Fronts: 683
Sides: 601s3
Backs: 602s3
Sub: SVS PB10-ISD

I will be moving soon, so room size will change, but lets say it is for a medium to large rectangular room.

Eventually I will probably go to a pre-amp instead of the receiver. I have been looking at the new Rotel RSP – 1570.

Things I want in an amp:
7 channels
more than 100w and preferable 200w
neutral or warm sounding (not bright) - the most important feature to me
good soundstaging
Less than $4000 prefer than than $2500.

The options that I have come up with are:
Rotel RMB – 1077, Seems to be good reviews for a D-class amp. I like that it runs cool and quiet. Hear it can be bright, especially paired with the B&Ws. Some seem not to like the B&W, Rotel combination.

Gemstone Blue Diamond 7- has been getting great reviews. Haven't talk to anyone that has heard one in person. Probably my number one choice right now.

NAD – M25 - Again, gets great reviews. Concerned about the fan noise and reliability (fans often break). However, the sound is supposed be to be top-notch.

Arcam FMJ P7 used - On the high side of my budget, but can find them used.

That is it for right now. Thanks for your advice in advance.

[htsteve]

2 amps?

COhifi,

First of all, welcome to the forum. I anticipate you will enjoy this forum.

As to your question about a 7 channel amp. Do you have the room and would you consider getting two amp to make up your seven channels. You could get a 2 channel amp for you towers and a 5 channel for everything else.

Here's some ideas:

Rotel 1080 200wpc $1000
Rotel 1075 125wpc $1000

Rotel 1572 250wpc $1500(?) Class D
Rotel 1565 100wpc $1200(?) Class D

Yes, the 1077 is a very nice amp (I used to have one). To me the performance was comparable to a Rotel 1080, except for all 7 channels, and at 100 watts. And it does run cool (plus it's small).

I also ran it on a B&W systems. First was N804's, HTM1 and 705's. Soundstage was excellent. It didn't seem bright to me.

I upgraded to 802D's, HTM2D and moved the N804's to the rears. I bi-amped the front three with the 1077. It was quite pleasing. The upgrade in speakers was quite excellent, while being driven by the 1077.

The 1077 only drove this system for a little while until my McIntosh came in (5 channel amp and pre-amp). The Mac's are better in every category, as you would expect for the money. The best word to describe the B&W and Mac combo is SMOOOOTH, with great bass, detail, soundstage (very deep as well as wide). There is so much 'air' around music, you get lost in it pretty quickly.

You might consider finding a used MC205 and start your system as a 5.1.
It's at the top of your budget, but something like these:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1230713432&/McIntosh-MC205-5-channel-ampli

http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=MC7205&nav=cat

There is an MC207 that is a 7 channel version, but it will cost more.


Hope this helps.

[audioqueso]

htsteve,

Though a McIntosh amp could definitely bring out the best out of the 600 series, do you think it is worth it for him to run a Mac off of a Denon 2808ci receiver or even a Rotel RSP-1570 if he purchases it later?

At the same time, I would be curious to hear a comparison between an AV receiver vs an AV received matched with a high-end amp like McIntosh.

"Some seem not to like the B&W, Rotel combination."
But way more people like the B&W/Rotel combination. Even though I had a Rotel amp, I never used my 600 series with an amp, so I really can't comment on what it would sound like. I started using separate amps when I received my 805's.

[htsteve]

htsteve,

Though a McIntosh amp could definitely bring out the best out of the 600 series, do you think it is worth it for him to run a Mac off of a Denon 2808ci receiver or even a Rotel RSP-1570 if he purchases it later?

At the same time, I would be curious to hear a comparison between an AV receiver vs an AV received matched with a high-end amp like McIntosh.

"Some seem not to like the B&W, Rotel combination."
But way more people like the B&W/Rotel combination. Even though I had a Rotel amp, I never used my 600 series with an amp, so I really can't comment on what it would sound like. I started using separate amps when I received my 805's.

audioqueso,

Very good questions. My answer was geared towards long a long term solution. I also assumed the OP would get a pre-amp fairly soon, so I really didn't think about the Denon much. Probably an error on my part.

Having said that, if someone is going into separates in two steps, the amp is the thing to do well on. I just took the next step and tried to suggest an amp that would last a long time, including speaker upgrades. 'Lock down' the amp, so to speak.

I had a Sony ES receiver with P5's, CNT center and SCM8 rears. I then bought a Rotel 1095. Major, Major upgrade. Everything was better. My own experience as well as people I know who have upgraded to an external amp have all thought it was a very good move.

I do know someone who has some 7NT's running off a Denon. He just got a Mac MC7100 stereo amp (100 wpc). He was also very pleased with the move. He realizes his receiver needs upgrading, but he's quite happy in the meantime. That's the only receiver/high end amp I example I know directly. Hopefully others will chime in.

In the short term, given COhifi's gear, a Rotel level solution should work very well. It would be integrated and well balanced.


I also agree that many people like the B&W/Rotel combo.


COhifi,

The best advise is listening for yourself. Your ears will tell you. Hopefully you can do in-home demo's with some amps. That's the best way. If not that way, then finding a dealer with your speakers and some amps to demo is the next best step.



Hope this helps.

[COhifi]

Thanks for all your great info.

I have thought about doing a 5 ch and 2 ch combo, but thought that would cost more than doing just a 7 ch. I know that is not always the case and I will look at combos individually.

Unfortunately, I do not have an opportunity to demo these amps. At least right now, maybe in a couple of months. I live far enough away from Denver, that I can only go there on weekends and all my weekends are filling up with Ski trips . I was hoping to get some info. from people that have heard these amps. Thanks for your info about the Rotel 1077 and the Mac.

A couple of questions:
What would be a good 2 ch amp to power the sides, if I was to get the Mac? Something not too expensive.
Are the B stock amps at Audio Classic reliable? Obviously if I am going to spend that much money on an amp I want it to last for a long time, like you said.
I got the feeling, you would recommend the 1077. Do you think it is a better option than a 1075 or 1095 and a two channel?
What wattage (compared to a traditional AB, like the 1095) would you guess the 1077 performs at? Like you said and I have heard the class D actually sound louder than the ABs.
Have you heard or Heard info from someone else on the other amps on my list?

Again, Thanks a ton for your info. It is a lot of help.

[COhifi]

Also,

The Mac is a 4 ohm amp. How is that different then the 8 ohm amps I have been looking at?

Thanks

[htsteve]

A couple of questions:
What would be a good 2 ch amp to power the sides, if I was to get the Mac? Something not too expensive.
Are the B stock amps at Audio Classic reliable? Obviously if I am going to spend that much money on an amp I want it to last for a long time, like you said.
I got the feeling, you would recommend the 1077. Do you think it is a better option than a 1075 or 1095 and a two channel?
What wattage (compared to a traditional AB, like the 1095) would you guess the 1077 performs at? Like you said and I have heard the class D actually sound louder than the ABs.
Have you heard or Heard info from someone else on the other amps on my list?

For side speakers I would look for something small in Mac's like the MC7100, an MC2100 or something similar. Something with about 100 watts in a small design. I've seen these for as little as $600 used, but more likely around $800.

Audio Classics rates their products on an A-B-C type scale (it on their website). They might have 'B' stock, but mostly it's used gear. The best thing to do would be to call them. I think they have a working relationship with McIntosh since they are literally right down the road from them. Hopefully, this might speak well for used product.

I like the 1077. It's flexible, as I used it to bi-amp my front three. For you, it would be one amp, 3 inches tall, runs cool, and would power your whole system. I mostly ran it in bi-amp mode. I did have the 1095. I felt the 1077 had a bit better control of the drivers.

As to whether the 1077 is a better option than a 1075 or 1095 plus a 2 channel. My answer is.... it depends. It depends on how much two channel you listen to. If you listen to a fair amount of two channel, then a two channel amp, whether an AB or a class D amp, would be the recommendation (plus a 5 channel for HT). My experience has been that a two channel amp provides the best platform for two channel (duh!), but it also improved the HT part since the main speakers will sound better when the HT is on.

It's hard for me to say what a 1077 watt rating would be in a class A/B world. The 1077 did what I asked of it, and did it well. If I had to guess, I would say it was between the 1075 and the 1095. I don't think it had the grunt of a 1095, but it was pretty close and it was more refined to me.


I don't have any experience with the other amps you mentioned. I heard some Arcam for just a little bit. I liked what I heard, but didn't listen long enough to really have an informed opinion.


Hope this helps.

[htsteve]

Also,

The Mac is a 4 ohm amp. How is that different then the 8 ohm amps I have been looking at?

Thanks

In short, it means they can handle more difficult loads. It's one of the nice things about Mac's. They can run just about anything.

[sparky0173]

Hi COhifi,

I'm the guy that HTsteve was referring to that paired up a Denon receiver with a Mcintosh MC7100.

I started with a pair of B&W 601 s3 mated to a Denon AVR1802 that I had from a very modest HT setup from before. I recently upgraded my system and purchased a pair of used CDM 7NTs and a CDM CNT for the front three channels and moved the 601s to the back. Again, I had the entire system hooked up to the Denon. The sound that came out was fine, but it wasn't nearly as good as what I had heard when I first demoed the speakers paired with a better amp.

HTsteve was very helpful in guiding me through the upgrade process as I began to explore the use of an outboard amp for the front two channels. I found a great deal on a used MC7100. The difference is really something else! Even when using the Denon as a preamp, the sound was MUCH smoother. The highs were not as bright and the stage really opened up. I didn't have the budget to upgrade everything at once. Some may argue it would be a complete waste to pair up McIntosh amps with Denon receivers. I would agree with that statement in that you are not using the Mac to its full potential, but for me the potential was what was really important. When funds become available, you can always upgrade to a better preamp. I was looking to save money down the road and not have to go though multiple upgrade cycles. I really enjoy the Mac sound and knew that's where I wanted to end up.

As for HTsteve suggestion to go with seperate amps, it's actually a very good one IMOH. If you decide to go with a stero amp in the front, you could really give power to the speakers that need it the most. You could spend a little bit more money there and get more power. To top it off, many stereo amps allow themselves to be bridged producing an even more powerful monoblock amp. The MC7100 I have outputs a very clean 100 watts per channel in stereo. When bridged, the amp produces 300 watts mono. Down the road, I plan on picking up another one or two and power the LCR channels individually. I paid about $600 for my amp. Assuming I can get two more at the same price, it's going to be $1800 for some serious power in the front. Something definitely to consider.

I'm really a novice at this, but this makes sense to me. Perhaps others can chime in.

[COhifi]

In a crazy turn of events. I traded in my 683s and got 703s this weekend, with a htm7 center. This was something I did not intend on doing, but a store in Denver, was selling a 3 month old used pair of 703s for under $2000 and they gave me full price on the 683s. For $500 dollars I like them a lot better. Also, the htm7 sounds a lot better than the htm61 to me (They was only a $30 difference, because the 700 series is being discontinued). With this new set up, I plan on getting a McIntosh MC 205 to run the centers and surrounds and a McIntosh MC 252 for the fronts or just go for the MC207. I heard these this weekend and was blow away by them. I will have to have to find a used pair to stay within by budget, but they seem to be available. Then I will need to upgrade my receiver to a pre-amp and I will be all set. Thanks a lot for your info. It was very helpful.

[beden1]

Who said the 700 series is being discontinued?

[COhifi]

The guys at Listen Up in Denver.

[COhifi]

Maybe the meant that series of the 700s, but that is not what they said. They said that B&W was doing away with the line to focus on the 800s, 600s, CM, and their slimmer designs. The CMs are going to be the replacement, so to speak.

[N2siast]

In a crazy turn of events. I traded in my 683s and got 703s this weekend, with a htm7 center. This was something I did not intend on doing, but a store in Denver, was selling a 3 month old used pair of 703s for under $2000 and they gave me full price on the 683s. For $500 dollars I like them a lot better. Also, the htm7 sounds a lot better than the htm61 to me (They was only a $30 difference, because the 700 series is being discontinued). With this new set up, I plan on getting a McIntosh MC 205 to run the centers and surrounds and a McIntosh MC 252 for the fronts or just go for the MC207. I heard these this weekend and was blow away by them. I will have to have to find a used pair to stay within by budget, but they seem to be available. Then I will need to upgrade my receiver to a pre-amp and I will be all set. Thanks a lot for your info. It was very helpful.

That's a heck of a deal. Good for you. Once you've gotten a chance to properly calibrate, I'll like to hear your impressions. I almost bit on th 703's as well but decided to wait for the CM-9 :T coming out at the end of the year. By the way did you get the IM I sent?

[htsteve]

In a crazy turn of events. I traded in my 683s and got 703s this weekend, with a htm7 center. This was something I did not intend on doing, but a store in Denver, was selling a 3 month old used pair of 703s for under $2000 and they gave me full price on the 683s. For $500 dollars I like them a lot better. Also, the htm7 sounds a lot better than the htm61 to me (They was only a $30 difference, because the 700 series is being discontinued). With this new set up, I plan on getting a McIntosh MC 205 to run the centers and surrounds and a McIntosh MC 252 for the fronts or just go for the MC207. I heard these this weekend and was blow away by them. I will have to have to find a used pair to stay within by budget, but they seem to be available. Then I will need to upgrade my receiver to a pre-amp and I will be all set. Thanks a lot for your info. It was very helpful.

COhifi,

Great deal you got. You have (and will have) an excellent system. I'm biased of course, but I very much like your decision to go with the McIntosh solution. I'm not surprised by your reaction to the B&W and Mac combo.

You pose a very good question about which amp(s) to get. I have the MC205 and it works wonderfully with an 800 series setup, so I have know doubts it will drive the 7 series extremely well. Having said that, I tend to prefer a 2 channel amp for the mains, with a multichannel for the center and surrounds. Even stereo amps that are rated similar in power to the multichannel amps perform better in two channel mode. I had a Rotel 1080 and the 1095. The 1080 was definitely a better performer than the 1095, even thought both were rated at the same power. The 1080 bad better bass and cleaner midrange/highs.

For your scenario, I would try to pursue the MC252 (excellent Mac stereo amp) and an MC205 (I'd start with this first, it will give you a system to start with). As noted, used versions will allow you to hopefully stay in budget.


Happy hunting.


Hope this helps.

[audioqueso]

Who said the 700 series is being discontinued?

That's the first thing I thought about asking as soon as I read that.
Any dealer want to chime in?

[beden1]

That's the first thing I thought about asking as soon as I read that.
Any dealer want to chime in?

I was talking to a dealer today who said that the trend in speaker sales seem to be favoring those with smaller profiles, ala the Signature Diamond. He also said that the larger 800 Series speakers will evolve into a smaller footprint using different materials for the next generation.

More and more, he said people want their systems to be esthetically pleasing and blend into their decor. I'm not sure if I'm a fan if this does come about, as I feel the larger cabinets provide more soundstage.