Benefits of "large" rear speakers!?

[Marco Lisi]

Hi all

Last weekend I was testing the new Marantz AV8003 + MM8300 combo on my 7.1 system. This was the first time that I could hear the system in full force since the 800D has arrived. I'm still waiting on my personal pro + amplifiers to be delivered.

The front end sound was superb, but I sometimes had the idea that the rears (DS8S + SMCS) couldn't keep up with the dynamics of the 800's and HTM1D.

Upgrading the rear speakers would cost in terms of "bigger" speakers and "bigger' poweramps...

Would I (sonicly) benefit from upgrading the SMCS speakers to say a pair of 803D or even better 802D? What is your experience, advise?

Greetings

:T

[htsteve]

Maybe 804S

Hi all

Last weekend I was testing the new Marantz AV8003 + MM8300 combo on my 7.1 system. This was the first time that I could hear the system in full force since the 800D has arrived. I'm still waiting on my personal pro + amplifiers to be delivered.

The front end sound was superb, but I sometimes had the idea that the rears (DS8S + SMCS) couldn't keep up with the dynamics of the 800's and HTM1D.

Upgrading the rear speakers would cost in terms of "bigger" speakers and "bigger' poweramps...

Would I (sonicly) benefit from upgrading the SMCS speakers to say a pair of 803D or even better 802D? What is your experience, advise?

Greetings

:T

Marco Lisi,

I have 802D's, HTM2D and N804's in a small to medium sized room. You do have a most impressive front three. I've had wall mounted (SCM8's) and bookshelf (705's) speakers as rears. I build an HT room in my basement, and when I bought my 802D's, my former front towers, the N804s, moved to the rear. I love full towers as rear speakers. You might consider the current 804S as rears.

However, having said that, I love the diamond tweeters and really good midrange the 803D and up provides. If you have the money and amplification to go for the 803D's or even the 802D's, then I would seriously consider it. If funds are more limited, getting really good tower speakers as rears (804S) would also be very good. In a BIG system, rear towers are great.


Hope this helps.

[Marco Lisi]

Hello htsteve

Nice post

Could you tell me a little more on what "sonic" changes you noticed moving on up the ladder with your own rear speakers: going from SCMS, to 705's and at last N804's???

Greetings

:T

[dmccombs]

Big Rear speakers will also help if you listen to 5.1 music. It will give a more balanced presentation (provided the recording puts more than hand clapping on the rear channels).

Darrell

[htsteve]

Hello htsteve

Nice post

Could you tell me a little more on what "sonic" changes you noticed moving on up the ladder with your own rear speakers: going from SCMS, to 705's and at last N804's???

Greetings

:T

Marco Lisi,

My first serious rear speakers were B&W SCM8's. These were traingular shaped dipole speakers that were mounted on the wall about 7 feet high just a little forward of the listening position. The dipoles gave off a very large soundfield that sounded very nice. It was a very nice improvement from my old rear speaker (large Polk Audio's, as I recall).

I then rearranged my HT/living room a couple of years ago. This gave me the change to go with bookshelves as speakers. These were on stands, toed in, slightly behind the listening position. The 705's, being slightly behind the seating area and having better detail, gave a more precise rear speaker sound. The bass output was quite nice for a speaker of that size.

I got my 802D's before my new HT room was complete. So they went in front and my N804's went in back. Everything accross the board was better with the 804's. Dynamics, detail, cohesiveness with the front three. And the bass was much improved, as one would suspect. The 804's blended better with the front three speakers than the 705's.

As was noted, if you listen to 5.1 music, a tower will bring out the music better.

Finally, I have a blu ray player that processes uncompressed audio (DTS-MA and Dolby True HD). Uncompressed audio is awesome. Having rear towers gives this audio a chance to really shine. My theater is spectacular in Blu ray with the uncompressed audio.

I try to maintain a level of balance in my speakers. To me, when one has invested as we have in the front three, the rear channels need to keep pace (as funds allow). Now that I've done this, I have no regrets. Towers as rear speakers are great if you can do it.


Hope this helps.

[Marco Lisi]

htsteve

This helps a lot, thanx

Let's be honest here, funds are always the problem :rofl:
I finaly got my front up to speed: 800D, HTM1D.
I use one ASW855 (plan to get a second) sub.
I thought I could ease down on the rear part...but that is not the case now.
The indifference/inbalans has become more clear now, since I've upgraded my 802D's tot 800D's at the frond end. I have this brick wall of sound now coming from the front.

So here we are: I use DS8S di-pole speakers as rear surrounds and they work very nice. I simply cannot upgrade these speakers because I lack space. They are ceiling-mounted as well. In the back hang the SCMS. There lay my possible upgrade path: I could go for 803D or even 802D (the space is there).

I'm building my ultimate 7.2 HT step by step, and consider myself at this point not wanting to compromise. Speed depends on funds, we all know that :W

I fully agree: bly-ray uncompressed audio rocks!

Greetings

:T

[beden1]

I'm currently using a pair of 703's as my surround speakers. Unltimately, I would like to get a pair of 803D's to go with my 803D fronts. But, I really wish B&W would come out with 805D's to use as surrounds. I'm not sure how much bass is sent to the surrounds, and the only issues I have now with the 703's is that I sometimes notice the voicing differences particularly when listening to multi-channel music. HT is rarely an issure IMO.

[William]

I'm currently using a pair of 703's as my surround speakers. Unltimately, I would like to get a pair of 803D's to go with my 803D fronts...

Same setup with a HTM2D. Can't stand bi-poles. They are a compromise to spread the sweet spot for commercial theaters and have little relevance in a HT.

[beden1]

Same setup with a HTM2D. Can't stand bi-poles. They are a compromise to spread the sweet spot for commercial theaters and have little relevance in a HT.

I have the HTM2D for the center also with the 703's in the surrounds. I just got the HTM2D about two weeks ago replacing an HTM1. I may be crazy, but I noticed a voicing mismatch with the 703's more with the HTM1 as the center, than I do now with the HTM2D and my 803D front L/R?

I actually really like the 703's, and I'm hoping they serve well in their designated role.

[wettou]

Hi all Would I (sonically) benefit from upgrading the SMCS speakers to say a pair of 803D or even better 802D? What is your experience, advise?

Of course especially for music SACD Multichannel. When I got my 802D I put my 802S in the back replacing my 803s and it was very nice. I guess the next step for me would be 800D in the front now, but I am done upgrading, may be in ten years if I have the $$$$

[RebelMan]

The indifference/inbalans has become more clear now, since I've upgraded my 802D's tot 800D's at the frond end. I have this brick wall of sound now coming from the front.

So here we are: I use DS8S di-pole speakers as rear surrounds and they work very nice. I simply cannot upgrade these speakers because I lack space. They are ceiling-mounted as well. In the back hang the SCMS. There lay my possible upgrade path: I could go for 803D or even 802D (the space is there).

I'm building my ultimate 7.2 HT step by step, and consider myself at this point not wanting to compromise. Speed depends on funds, we all know that :W

Marco, prior to my 800D I had the 803S that I used along with the SCMS for surrounds. After replacing the 803S with the 800D I can honestly say that the envelopment of the sound field is more cohesive and seamless. Since you are looking to build the ultimate HT experienced you are discouraged from floor standers unless you can give them ample height, that is two feet above the ears. The surround speakers should not be drawing any attention to themselves. If you are detecting point sources anywhere in the vicinity of the speakers then your speakers are not optimally placed and/or your processor settings are mis-calibrated and/or you room needs treatment. Adding full range floor standers for surround duty is not the answer.

If you already had floor standers and you could accommodate them as surrounds that's one thing. But to use them as replacements to your already fine surrounds is not necessary. If I were to recommend any changes to your surrounds it would be that you replace the DS8S with SCMS for consistent timbre and stereo imaging (the surrounds should create a stereo image if done properly). You mention both the SCMS and the DS8S are in the back. If at all possible you should have the SCMS on the sides between 90 and 110 degrees from the center channel and another pair at 150 degrees on the back wall for a 7.2 setup. Your side surrounds must not sit forward of the listening spot and none of them should be aimed at the listener, but towards the center of the room. Crossover settings should be 80Hz for the SCMS to avoid distortion and steep roll-off. Making good use of surrounds should provide ambient detail (like rustling of trees) but not localized detail (like a guitar pluck) that you get with the LCR.

[wettou]

Marco, prior to my 800D I had the 803S that I used along with the SCMS for surrounds. After replacing the 803S with the 800D I can honestly say that the envelopment of the sound field is more cohesive and seamless. Since you are looking to build the ultimate HT experienced you are discouraged from floor standers unless you can give them ample height, that is two feet above the ears. The surround speakers should not be drawing any attention to themselves. If you are detecting point sources anywhere in the vicinity of the speakers then your speakers are not optimally placed and/or your processor settings are mis-calibrated and/or you room needs treatment. Adding full range floor standers for surround duty is not the answerR.

Well if you want good SACD music experience floor standing speakers are the way to go. Now if all yo do is movies with that system then I would agree. over 85% comes front the front anyway

[beden1]

Marco, prior to my 800D I had the 803S that I used along with the SCMS for surrounds. After replacing the 803S with the 800D I can honestly say that the envelopment of the sound field is more cohesive and seamless. Since you are looking to build the ultimate HT experienced you are discouraged from floor standers unless you can give them ample height, that is two feet above the ears. The surround speakers should not be drawing any attention to themselves. If you are detecting point sources anywhere in the vicinity of the speakers then your speakers are not optimally placed and/or your processor settings are mis-calibrated and/or you room needs treatment. Adding full range floor standers for surround duty is not the answer.

I have to somewhat agree with Wettou, and partially agree with RebelMan, with caveat. I have been experimenting with surround sound now for about 25 years, and fortunately, my first attempt was probably the best over the years (I was one of the initial purchasers of the first Yamaha dedicated surround processors, which if memory serves me correctly, it was the first surround processor to hit the market about 25 years ago. It enabled the use of your stereo pre-amp, along with the processor . . . and was similar to the HT bi-pass of today. In my one setup, I have had a 7.1 configuration of sorts for the same 25 years (using a speaker control box for connecting 8 speakers) . . . a pair of large L/R studio monitor fronts, a large bi-polar center channel speaker that works well with my cathedral hardwood ceiling, a pair of 15" sub woofers (I had only one sub initially for 20+ years), and four matching satellites that are mounted in each of the four ceiling corners (I now would have positioned a pair on the rear corners for surround back, and a pair at the middle for surround). I designed and had built the now dedicated HT room initially as a play room addition for our kids, and with HT in mind - 36' by 18"). This setup is a balanced system, and the key factors are the studio monitor L/R front speakers that serve as the strong anchors, and the matching company surround satellite speakers that help carry the ball to the end zone.

I think much of what Rebelman is experiencing and espouses as gospel is correct in his setup . . . although his room does not appear to be an ideal situation and is possibly more challenging than most of us have to deal with. He does have the benefit of large studio monitors in his 800d's that help to cure a lot of ills, however.

I have the benefit of working with two systems that present very differing challenges. In the setup with the B&W diamond speakers (still evolving), it is often the primary challenge/consideration to try and match/blend the voice (highs and mid ranges) that are so distinct. And IMO, much more so than worrying about whether the speakers are two feet above the listener's ears or not. (I do agree with proper positioning/angling of the speakers in accordance with where the listeners are sitting, however. When the surround speakers are positioned properly, the listeners don't realize they are present.

In my room with the B&W speakers, it is not possible for me to duplicate what I have in my other HT room, and what could be considered to be an optimum setup for this particular environment, with ceiling mounted and positioned surround speakers.

After reading RebelMan's advise on positioning the surround speakers two feet above the listener's head, I went and measured the position of my own floor standing 703 surrounds (no substitute for size). The tweeters are approximately 2 feet above the listener's head/ears when sitting, and the other point in which I agree, is that the angle is towards the center front focal point and not directed towards or angled directly through any listener. But, the challenge of the B&W distinct voice needs to be dealt with, and this is where I need to listen more to a variety of HT software in order to come to final solution.

In dealing with my B&W setup and my own room configuration, it is not possible for me to duplicate the ceiling mounted speakers like I have in my other dedicated HT room. And in this setup, I happen to feel that full range speakers used as surrounds may be the better solution . . . particularly if you are having to work with less than studio monitor speakers as are the 800D and 801D's. With proper positioning as I think I have achieved with my 703's, I can't really focus on them and don't really know that they are there while watching a movie. With them powered on, I do notice a more fullness of sound throughout the room, as compared to when they are not selected to play. This tells me that they are positioned properly as surrounds.

In 7.1, the back speakers get the same signal as the front mains. In 5.1, and if you select the rear speakers to be surrounds, these speakers will get the supporting sounds of HT. In multi-channel audio, you get what you get, which means you sometimes get the same signals as the fronts, and sometmes you get the supporting signals.

I guess there are benefits in either case in favor of ceiling mounted or floor standing surrounds, but, there are few examples when one wins over the other. Except for the obvious support in bass output that the floor standers provide, I can think of examples when each will provide a benefit over the other: airplanes flying over head from rear to front sound better through celing mounted speakers. A buss or car driving from rear to front sound better through standing floor speakers.

The one thing that is constant, is that there are no constants in setting up a dedicated HT/audio room. There are as many variables as shapes of rooms, positioning of furnishings, and the associated equipment. That's why this hobby is always evolving through listening.

[Marco Lisi]

Hi guys

Thank you for taking the time to give me input! I took some pictures to visualise the situation better...

Please don't mind the mess in the living room, a new kitchen is to be installed next week, so :W

First pic: the DS8S & SCMS are alligned with front 800D speakers.



Second pic: due to the living room’s form it's impossible to put the di-poles in line with the sofa. If so, rears and backs would be to close together. I don't find this to be a bother...



Third pic: The space is there for 803D or even 802D in the back.



Greetings

:T

[wettou]

Hi guys Thank you for taking the time to give me input! I took some pictures to visualize the situation better... Please don't mind the mess in the living room, a new kitchen is to be installed next week, so :W
Third pic: The space is there for 803D or even 802D in the back. Greeting:T

Cool I assume you live in Europe? The radiators are giving it away.

Any way you might have problems with the furniture if you put 802 or 803s in the back. Now that I see the room, I think your set-up is cool the way it is. On an other note you might want to think about removing your coffee table that is probably one of the best sound improvement you can make and your speakers and ears will love it.

I agree it is always great to upgrade but sometime improving the listening room is the best investment you can make.

PS: By the way with that many speakers in such a small room you must have a lot of reverberation? You might want to put some heavy drapes on the windows and also get some acoustic panels with digital printing.

http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/absorbers/printsorb.htm

http://www.soundsorba.com/fotosorba.htm

http://www.acousticartpanels.com/about/index.html

[Marco Lisi]

Cool I assume you live in Europe?

Yeah, I live in Belgium

Any way you might have problems with the furniture if you put 802 or 803s in the back.

I've measured things, there is room for a pair of 803D's, I could even manage 802D's :B

Now that I see the room, I think your set-up is cool the way it is.

Well, thanx ;x(

On an other note you might want to think about removing your coffee table that is probably one of the best sound improvement you can make and your speakers and ears will love it.

The coffee table was put there to break "floorbouncing" soundwaves, together with the carpet... Am I wrong to think so?

I agree it is always great to upgrade but sometime improving the listening room is the best investment you can make.

Like everybody, I'm dreaming of a seperate, dedicated HT!

Greetings

:T

[beden1]

Would the radiator present a problem with the heat radiating too close to a floor standing speaker in the corner?

I agree that the room looks very well set-up with speakers like you have it. I also agree that you could do with a bit of dampening. Heavier draperies would help. I have also been recently adding floor standing tropical silk plants that seem to be doing a decent job of absorbing sound waves. I placed them behind each floor standing speaker and in some empty corners. They look decent and my wife gave me the thumbs up.

[RebelMan]

I agree that there are more scenarios for room size, shape, construction and content that drift away from the ideal than approach it. It goes without saying that each situation will establish a unique set of boundaries for the typical HT installation. Given that little was known of Marco's room, some assumptions had to be made. It was also safe to assume that his desire to achieve the "Ultimate HT" would require only the necessary speakers and to be properly placed and configured so as to approximate the ideal as much as possible. But there will be compromises and exceptions to make along the way.

Still, there is no need for Marco to make a full scale replacement of two-way monitors with three-way floor standers to reach the ideal surround sound environment provided that the room is conducive to it. The voicing between speakers that is crucial in the mid-range frequencies and up do not carry the same significance with surround information as is commonly necessary for the front soundstage.

Sound engineers have separate design goals when mixing discrete content for the front and rear channels and the position of our ears are less aware of the subtleties and nuances that could be present. Generally the details are blended together and smoothed out to create the sense of spatial immersion for the listener. So while more capable floor standers will be more revealing, the information that is fed and the perception of its reproduction generally isn't. Of course much of this will depend on the quality of the mix and the competency of the system and its configuration. Done right the results will be sublime but done wrong the results can seem unnatural.

This in no way implies that careful matching between the front and rear speakers can be avoided. Skimping on quality surrounds is not a prudent course of action if a person is trying to achieve transparency within the soundfield. Maintaining a consistent voice between the front and back is very important and a full complement of identical speakers would be an optimal arrangement. However, it's not necessary to take it that far in Marco's case nor the majority.

[RebelMan]

I think much of what Rebelman is experiencing and espouses as gospel is correct in his setup . . . although his room does not appear to be an ideal situation and is possibly more challenging than most of us have to deal with. He does have the benefit of large studio monitors in his 800d's that help to cure a lot of ills, however.

Your assessment of my setup is right on. My room does pose a number of challenges the biggest one WAF. I am contemplating a garage conversion to remediate most if not all the issues. But I go back and forth with the idea because once again the wife is not completely sold on it. What I have experienced is not spoken as gospel but as confirmation of practical application. I was again reminded of this today when I had the opportunity to demo a 5.1 system consisting of Sonus Faber (mains), Dali (in-walls) and McIntosh (electronics) in an ideal room. It was the sledge hammer of evidence that I needed to get my project going. The system sounded superb considering how unassuming but well made the room was.

In 7.1, the back speakers get the same signal as the front mains.

Not if can you choose discrete 7.1 sources or Dolby ProLogic IIx processing with either 2.0 or 5.1 sources.

The one thing that is constant, is that there are no constants in setting up a dedicated HT/audio room. There are as many variables as shapes of rooms, positioning of furnishings, and the associated equipment. That's why this hobby is always evolving through listening.

Agreed. However, an evolving system can only reach it's full potential if one's exposure through listening is not limited to just one setup.

[RebelMan]

Marco, what is the length of your room? Any reason why you can't move the sofa further in?

[beden1]

[QUOTE=RebelMan]Your assessment of my setup is right on. My room does pose a number of challenges the biggest one WAF. I am contemplating a garage conversion to remediate most if not all the issues. But I go back and forth with the idea because once again the wife is not completely sold on it.QUOTE=RebelMan]

Say it ain't so . . . sacrificing your garage and cars merely for your listening pleasures! This is sacrilege. :E Your cars deserve a good home too!

[Marco Lisi]

Would the radiator present a problem with the heat radiating too close to a floor standing speaker in the corner?

I don't think so, at the front end, my center is also placed rather close to the radiator and it doesn't affect the speaker. I tried to sense any warmth on the back of the HTM1D, but it always felt "normal".

I agree that the room looks very well set-up with speakers like you have it. I also agree that you could do with a bit of dampening. Heavier draperies would help. I have also been recently adding floor standing tropical silk plants that seem to be doing a decent job of absorbing sound waves. I placed them behind each floor standing speaker and in some empty corners. They look decent and my wife gave me the thumbs up.

The reason that I'm not in to "room dressing" right now is because of my former system (2.2) was from Lyngdorf. This compensates for room "flaws" in a electronic way (room correction). But now with the HT in place you are all so right that I should threat the room!

Greetings

:T

[style]

rear??

Hy Men,
I have upgradet may system in front side with a 803D with Htm2D. Rear I utilise the 805s with te Rotel RB1092.
Every movie have a difffent story., but ib music utilisation have a bugger speakers in the rear will be sure a good choice.

Hei the 805S is for me a very very good speaker:this is ubdeleables.

for mowie have a bigger speakers will be an advantage =more bilanced in he system.

Or in place from "bigger speakers" utilise the 05s with a SMCS or DS8 with the new ddlplus,$dts masterm& Co. can be the best solutions!
In my set I think that the SMCS will be more appewcied ask 804..
7.1 (ok, many people say is only a couple more from a system 5.1 and not always is a quality solution) but with the bew decoding will be very apprecied.
(in my Rotel Rsp1068 is have all speaker set in big!the front(L/R at 60hz-the center is at 80hz and the sub crossover 80hz)

Omar /Switzerland

[Marco Lisi]

Ok, let's continue visualising...these are the measurements of my living room:



Height = 2,4m

Greetings

:T

[Marco Lisi]

Any reason why you can't move the sofa further in?

Hi RebelMan

In my former "stereo" setup I always tried to put the sofa as far back as possible. I love "sitting" on row 7-8 of the concerthall. I listen to classical music a lot. If you put the sofa within the speakertriangle, you get more detail, but lose "overall" musical impression.

Of course, this is surround now, a new ballgame???

b.t.w.: the sofa could move forward indeed (not quiet esthetical, WAF!?)...

Greetings

:T

[Marco Lisi]

Living room with windows and doors:



Greetings

:T

[Marco Lisi]

Living room with speaker setup and furniture:



Extra info
1. Behind center speaker -> radiator
2. To the left of the left SCMS -> radiator
3. Under left DS8S -> sideboard
4. Under right DS8S -> cd rack
5. In the centre -> carpet with coffee table

Greetings

:T

[RebelMan]

Say it ain't so . . . sacrificing your garage and cars merely for your listening pleasures! This is sacrilege. :E Your cars deserve a good home too!

I know, I know. But my passion for audio predates my love of cars and at the moment I have none (use to) that requires that level of TLC. That could change down the road and if it does there will be one stall left in my garage waiting for it. :T

[RebelMan]

Marco, it seems to me you have sufficient room to move the sofa forward and in line with the DS8S and still have enough setback from the front soundstage. It also looks like you could remount the DS8S on the sides and inline with the rears as monopoles. Although another pair of SCMS would probably work better and allow more flexibility for side wall placement. I think the extra effort to rearrange a few things would pay off big in the end and you won't need to give up any floor space in the process either.

[Marco Lisi]

Marco, it seems to me you have sufficient room to move the sofa forward and in line with the DS8S and still have enough setback from the front soundstage. It also looks like you could remount the DS8S on the sides and inline with the rears as monopoles. Although another pair of SCMS would probably work better and allow more flexibility for side wall placement. I think the extra effort to rearrange a few things would pay off big in the end and you won't need to give up any floor space in the process either.

Hello RebelMan

Why would you chance the DS8 into SCMS? You have to know that the DS8 can be "switched" from mono-polo tot di-pole operation. I think they use the same units.

In many literature my kind of setup is found to be the best for both movie and music: that is combining di-poles as side-surrounds and mono-poles as back-surrounds.

Would upgrading to floorstanders as (back) rears provide even greater benefit with music reproduction?

Let's just talk pure speakerwise now and leave accoustics out (for the moment)...

Greetings

:T

[htsteve]

Would upgrading to floorstanders as (back) rears provide even greater benefit with music reproduction?

Let's just talk pure speakerwise now and leave accoustics out (for the moment)...

Greetings

:T

Posted to incorrect thread.

[wettou]

Would upgrading to floor standers as (back) rears provide even greater benefit with music reproduction? Let's just talk pure speaker wise now and leave acoustics out (for the moment)...

Yes it makes a really big difference:

My current set up is a 7.1 system all driven by Classé

- Front: Three 802D (L,C,R)
- Side: Two 802S (SR, SL)
- Back: Two 803S (BR, BL)
- JL Audio Fathom F113 sub

For SACD multichannel music it is great especially if you listen to a lot of symphonies like we do. Also some time I use the feature on my processor all channels stereo and all speakers come alive

I use to have in ceiling in the back and it doesn't come close in terms of sound stage.

[Marco Lisi]

Yes it makes a really big difference:

My current set up is a 7.1 system all driven by Classé

- Front: Three 802D (L,C,R)
- Side: Two 802S (SR, SL)
- Back: Two 803S (BR, BL)
- JL Audio Fathom F113 sub

For SACD multichannel music it is great especially if you listen to a lot of symphonies like we do. Also some time I use the feature on my processor all channels stereo and all speakers come alive

I use to have in ceiling in the back and it doesn't come close in terms of sound stage.

Wettou

How does this work with movies? I think you enjoy very high dynamics, balans and ease...

Greetings

:T

[wettou]

Wettou How does this work with movies? I think you enjoy very high dynamics, balans and ease...Greetings

Marco, it works great there are not may 7.1 mixed DVDs and even less blu rays but when they are it is really awesome. I have been thinking about getting an MC12 with Logic 7 on the Lexicon or the Classé SSP-800 with Dolby Digital EX which I understand will do the same thing!

[Marco Lisi]

Marco, it works great there are not may 7.1 mixed DVDs and even less blu rays but when they are it is really awesome. I have been thinking about getting an MC12 with Logic 7 on the Lexicon or the Classé SSP-800 with Dolby Digital EX which I understand will do the same thing!

OFF TOPIC

Wettou

I have found the MC12 really disapointing in terms of audioperformance.
I've tested this model in a shootout with a Halcro Logic SSP-200.
In my taste the Lexicon had a more "professional' sound.

Doesn't THX Ultra 2 post prosessing provide the same effect with 5.1 discs, that is matrix them up to 7.1?

Greetings

:T

[wettou]

I have found the MC12 really disappointing in terms of audio performance. I've tested this model in a shootout with a Halcro Logic SSP-200. In my taste the Lexicon had a more "professional' sound.

Interesting comment about the MC12 "professional sound" what do you mean.

Doesn't THX Ultra 2 post processing provide the same effect with 5.1 discs, that is matrix them up to 7.1? Greetings

Yes I think so but Classé SSP-800 opted out of THX post processing probably to avoid paying royalties and licensing fees

[RebelMan]

Hello RebelMan

Why would you chance the DS8 into SCMS? You have to know that the DS8 can be "switched" from mono-polo tot di-pole operation. I think they use the same units.

Spatial reasons primarily. If you have the space on the side walls to accept the DS8S then I see no problem driving them as mono-poles.

In many literature my kind of setup is found to be the best for both movie and music: that is combining di-poles as side-surrounds and mono-poles as back-surrounds.

There was a greater case for dipoles back in the heyday of Dolby Surround. Today's sound engineers are mixing tracks with the intent that they will be played back on monopole point source speakers (as they are in cinemas). Coupled with sophisticated matrixing algorithms and post processing schemes like Dolby ProLogic IIx and THX Ultra2, which are inherently designed to create a diffusive environment, and you circumvent the need for dipole speakers further if not completely, in rooms with the ideal configuration. Less than ideal rooms (that is rooms that are atypical in size, shape, configuration and seating) may require more creative approaches to conform to best practices.

Would upgrading to floorstanders as (back) rears provide even greater benefit with music reproduction?

Let's just talk pure speakerwise now and leave accoustics out (for the moment)...

Yes and no. It depends on two things. 1) You have the room. 2) You know what to expect.

The biggest problem with floor standers as surrounds is that inadequate room is donated to them and the diligence required to setup them up is not give due consideration.

The other problem is knowing what to accomplish with a multi-channel setup. Are you interested in recreating the live performance within the acoustic confines of your own living space OR do you want to recreate the venue as if being "there"? If it's the former you don't need front/rear matching floorstanders. If it's the latter you may benefit with them to a small degree but it will depend mostly on the strategies taken to create the recording, the content of the show and the frequency with which you engage yourself in.

I am not a proponent of recreating other places within the boundaries of my room because it can't be done. It can't even be convincingly approximated and there are many reasons as to why. Rather I prefer and recommend that the presentation be taken home. It's much easier to implement and the results are much more realistic than what you get experimenting with artificial teleportation. You'll still find yourself as being "there" but there as in your place and in real time not there as in the the 12th seat back in an auditorium of ten thousand with horn loaded speakers to pierce your ears and disturbances all around you (which are three-dimensional not flat space) some time ago or imagined. If you want that then there are much better ways of getting it by simply going.

[wettou]

Yes and no. It depends on two things. 1) You have the room. 2) You know what to expect. The biggest problem with floor standers as surrounds is that inadequate room is donated to them and the diligence required to setup them up is not give due consideration.

Are you interested in recreating the live performance within the acoustic confines of your own living space, If it's the former you don't need front/rear matching floorstanders.

If you have the room then floor standers are the way to go. I experimented with both within my room and especially with SACD multichannel no question floor standers where so much better.

I am not a proponent of recreating other places within the boundaries of my room because it can't be done. It can't even be convincingly approximated and there are many reasons as to why

Agreed 100%

Rather I prefer and recommend that the presentation be taken home. It's much easier to implement and the results are much more realistic than what you get experimenting with artificial teleportation. You'll still find yourself as being "there" but there as in your place and in real time not there as in the the 12th seat back in an auditorium of ten thousand with horn loaded speakers to pierce your ears and the disturbances around you (which are three-dimensional not flat space).

I want to be front and center and five 802s put me there :lol:

If you want that then there are much better ways of getting it by simply going.

Agreed check out Walt Disney Concert Hall in LA if you have a chance a master piece and probably the best symphony hall in the world and I have been to a few

[tmt]

on a sidenote: why go for a 7.1 system?

If I'm not mistaken there are no audio formats that support 8 discrete channels. The maximum is 7 discrete channels, where the 2 rear surround speakers play the same sound, thus acting as a 6.1 system. So instead of 2 rear speakers just 1 will do fine.

In the future that might change, but who knows where they want extra channels, in the floor, ceiling,...

[wettou]

on a sidenote: why go for a 7.1 system?

If you hav the space it rooks, very few discs agreed, but Blu Ray DTS Tru HD Master Audio :T

[RebelMan]

on a sidenote: why go for a 7.1 system?

Why not? Dolby ProLogic IIx can enhance 5.1 soundtracks by matrix processing the rears in a 7.1 system for improved envelopment and realism.

[tmt]

But the 2 rear speakers will play a mono sound, so you could hang 4 or 8 speakers on the rear wall and they still will play the same channel?

Or do audio tracks exist where there are 2 stereo tracks for surround purposes?

[RebelMan]

The rears are mixed in stereo (LS/LR AND RS/RR) under DPLIIx, not mono. THX does it in mono.

[tmt]

The rears are mixed in stereo (LS/LR AND RS/RR) under DPLIIx, not mono. THX does it in mono.

Well...crap! :x

I just have finished all electricity in my new house, and all speaker wires will be in-wall. I provided 1 tube for the rear channel, and 2 for the surrounds.
But anyway, I only have 6 speakers, and in the future always run 2 cables from the tube for the rear channel.

But are there 'native' soundtracks that already have stereo rear channels + stereo surround channels? Some DTS-master soundtracks or something?

[wettou]

Why not? Dolby ProLogic IIx can enhance 5.1 soundtracks by matrix processing the rears in a 7.1 system for improved envelopment and realism.

Yes also LOGIC 7 is quite impressive, (http://www.lexicon.com/logic7/index.asp) I have not tried THX Neural (http://www.thx.com/technologies/neural.html) but you might want to check it out.

Of course Classé SSP-800 has neither so the choices are limited!:B