tin ears, 804s, or limited electronics?

[Horacio]

I'm guessing someone else has gone down this road before, and looking for tips. I run my 804s on a stereo setup with Rotel gear (cdp RCD-1072, RC-1070, and RB-1080 200W amp). I use to drive a couple of CM-4 with these electronics and 18 months ago decided to upgrade to the 804s. I remember them sounding great at the dealer (on McIntosh). Long story short, I bought them as I was moving overseas and got to listen to mine only 3 months ago when I finally settled somewhere.

After a period of what I thought might be breaking in, here are my thoughts as of today:
1) I can't hear the large improvement I was expecting from the CM-4. It sounds better, but not as significant. Maybe I have tin ears after all?!
2) The 804s do sound bright to me. For example, listening to Louis Armstrong is unbearable.

Might this be caused by the limitations of my electronics? Granted, Rotel is OK, but not really hi end. Would hate to go down the electronics upgrade path only to discover, thousands of dollars later, that the issue was the 804s, or my tin ears, for that matter.

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks much!

[cug]

The 804S is very revealing. In all respects: it shows electronics flaws and also bad recordings right away. I don't listen to some of my Jazz albums anymore because they are so badly recorded that I just can't stand them.

One thing might be, that the 804S doesn't have the smooth diamond tweeter for the bigger sisters, but still it should normally sound pretty good.

Do you have a dealer in your area where you can borrow equipment (like a higher quality pre) over a weekend for testing? The RC-1070 might (!) be one of the causes for the behaviour.

The other thing is: maybe your room is a problem as it might have ugly reflections for higher frequencies? Do you have uncovered, large windows? Large bare walls? No carpet?

[Pedro]

It's not just the Diamond Tweeter, the 804S has some diferent response than the CM4 wich at -6dB the CM4 reach 34khz and the 804S 50khz!!!

[Horacio]

Cug,

All of the above. While speaker placement is fair and so are the room dimensions, I have bare floors, relatively bare walls and a large window behind the speakers. I also have a fair amount of upholstery (love seat and sofa), and the listening position is rather close to the speakers (10') and far from the back wall (about 20').
The RC-1070 would be the first one to go. Definitely.
No dealer in the area. I'll be back visiting the city where I bought mine and will stop by the dealer, but of course can't borrow electronics to bring home overseas. Will try one of my horrible-sounding albums at his place, with Macs, though.


Pedro,

Sorry, but didn't quite understand your point. Could you please elaborate?

Thanks both!!

[cug]

All of the above. While speaker placement is fair and so are the room dimensions, I have bare floors, relatively bare walls and a large window behind the speakers.

Ouch. Better to get some room treatment before you start even testing electronics. If you can provide some pictures of your setup / room, people might be able to give some good advice.

I'd start with curtains, maybe some pictures on the walls (not with glass frame), a carpet between your listening position and the speakers.

I also have a fair amount of upholstery (love seat and sofa), and the listening position is rather close to the speakers (10') and far from the back wall (about 20').

That should be fine. At least you're not getting reflections from the back.

Sorry, but didn't quite understand your point. Could you please elaborate?

He means probably that the frequency response of the 804S goes higher up without fading out, so it might sound brighter. I wouldn't worry about anything beyond 20kHz though if your older than 20 ...

Nevertheless - if the CM4 fades out high frequencies, you might not be used to a more linear freq response and therefore it might sound bright.

There are many ways to treat that: you could spend (tens of) thousands of dollars in "audiophile" tube amps with "warm sound" (because it might not able to deliver a flat frequency response up to 20kHz) or you could treat your room first and see what happens. I'd NEVER go the electronics route until I tried the room.

You can do some experimenting: place your the comforter between you and the speakers, put a mattress against the wall to catch reflections. Move the stuff around to experiment how it effects the sound. If you find the critical spots, try with things you can leave there permanently (carpet, curtains, ...) ask a woman how you can make the room "smoother" and she'll know what to do, just don't tell her it's for the sound ...

[Pedro]

Hello Horacio,

I've auditioned the 804S, with many marks like Krell, Jeff Rowland and Rotel. And always sounded bright. As I said before, the 804S like the all new Nautilus S, have some diferent frequency response than the old nautilus, or CM series.

The frequency response of the 804S is
+-3dB 38hz-22khz
+-6dB 30hz-50khz

The frequency response of the CM4 is:
+-3dB 38hz-20khz
+-6dB 29hz-30khz

As you can see the CM4 look likes more balanced not being so "trebled" at 6dB.

In this case keep in mind that 804S are technically better than CM4. They are to my ears and friend opinions a bit unbalanced lacking some "harmonic body" when you can't take that weight or dimension of the instruments giving an impression of lacking bass. If you give a listen with warm cables/electronic there's a possibility to stop the highs making them sound balanced

[cug]

The frequency response of the 804S is
+-3dB 38hz-22khz
+-6dB 30hz-50khz

The frequency response of the CM4 is:
+-3dB 38hz-20khz
+-6dB 29hz-30khz

As you can see the CM4 look likes more balanced not being so "trebled" at 6dB.

As long as he is listening to CDs this doesn't matter as CDs require a low-pass filter at 20kHz ...

And higher sampling rates with modern formats are normally only used to make the low-pass filter less steep. Not to abandon it.

[Horacio]

Cug,

Will try with your suggestions. I guess so far I've been more worried about low frequencies interacting with the room and have neglected the highs. Will come back, hopefully tomorrow, with feedback. Maybe pictures too.
It would be great if it were the room: a lot cheaper and a lot more fun to fix than just switching a piece of gear.


Pedro,

It sounds like you actually have 804s, and you have auditioned them with a number of brands. I guess I'm not surprised Krell sounded bright with these. A bit more than Rowlands did. Have you tried McIntosh, Classe, Levinson, or other more laid back electronics?

Thanks again!

[Pedro]

As long as he is listening to CDs this doesn't matter as CDs require a low-pass filter at 20kHz

Yeah, but i listen to CDM7 and CM4 before and noticed so balanced and not bright than 804S using the same electronic. The 3 have the same tweeter how could you explain why they sound diferent???

I keep my explanation being the reason about that!!

[cug]

I also have 804S and I don't think they are bright. The have more or less frequency response up 22kHz.

My room is pretty "damping" - wall to wall carpet, big sofa, reflecting disturbing blinds, but also a bare wall behind the listener position.

I have heard them with Rotel and Classé and while Classé sounded a bit different, they where never to bright for my taste with any Rotel equipment I heard. The RA-1062 and the RC-1072 might be a bit harsh, but it shouldn't be as bad as you describe.

[cug]

Yeah, but i listen to CDM7 and CM4 before and noticed so balanced and not bright than 804S using the same electronic. The 3 have the same tweeter how could you explain why they sound diferent???

I keep my explanation being the reason about that!!

How should that work if you listen to a CD which naturally has a high-pass filter at 20kHz? The CM4 might just have a different crossover, different case, whatever. It can have hundreds of reasons. I doubt it is the frequency response at more than 25kHz - if I would hear that, my wife would get a dog whistle instead of calling for me ... :B

[Pedro]

It sounds like you actually have 804s, and you have auditioned them with a number of brands. I guess I'm not surprised Krell sounded bright with these. A bit more than Rowlands did. Have you tried McIntosh, Classe, Levinson, or other more laid back electronics?

I tried Rotels. But i didnt like them coz they lack some bass to me, and before ending the payment of them i noticed the dealer that i want to upgrade to 803D wich at the same time they are balanced having strong/heavy lows, and being naturaly laid back.

With Krell the 804S are suffering but with the 803D takes fantastic.

As I said before, try some tube or SS amps that sounds like tube: McIntosh, Classe, Accuphase etc...

:T

[cug]

Hehehe, that's just showing how different our taste is:

You think the 803D is balanced, I think it is way to heavy in the bass and that it totally sucks how they muted the beautiful diamond tweeter ...

In my opinion the 804S is the more balanced speaker. But it also definitely depends heavily on the music you listen to. If I were still in my Rock'n'Roll phase, the 803D might have been an option. But as I like smooth Jazz and Classic, this wasn't an option at all.

[Pedro]

No problem, I agree with you, the 803S are for example for some more balanced, just because the mids are more there.

The BW is fantastic the guys make speakers sounding a little bit diferent and the users can pick what fits better in his personal tastes. And the fact of music taste not always defines the same speaker. I have friends that like Jazz/classics but prefer Dynaudio or Sonus Faber over BW.

[Briz vegas]

Hello Horacio,

I've auditioned the 804S, with many marks like Krell, Jeff Rowland and Rotel. And always sounded bright. As I said before, the 804S like the all new Nautilus S, have some diferent frequency response than the old nautilus, or CM series.

The frequency response of the 804S is
+-3dB 38hz-22khz
+-6dB 30hz-50khz

The frequency response of the CM4 is:
+-3dB 38hz-20khz
+-6dB 29hz-30khz

As you can see the CM4 look likes more balanced not being so "trebled" at 6dB.

...........................................

(disclosure - 804s owner and I luv 'em)

Pedro. Me thinks you should read your spec sheet again and think about what it actually means. To me this part of your post did not make sense. You have quoted the frequency where tweeter response drops 6db below the reference level. This is not a distortion figure or an indication of a hump in the speakers response at an audible frequency.

I envy your 803D speakers, but as you have suggested later in your post you can achieve excellent results with 804s speakers if set up well. In my experience this includes more than adequate bass (yeah, taste may be a factor in our differing opinions on that score)

Our friend Horacio liked the 804s enough in the audition to buy a pair. If they are not sounding as good now then it would be best to look at other factors other than the speakers.

[iiaudio]

Have you listened to your CM-4s in your new room? I would bet that its your room that's bright. You'll get a lot more bang for the buck investing in some room treatments than buying new gear.

Just my two cents.

[rodH]

I would do as CUG says, work on accoustics first. Obviously that part of your system NEEDS some tweaking, plus it is cheaper.

If that doesn't get you where you need to be (I am sure it will help), then see if you can borrow some electronics from your dealer. I am sold on McIntosh for B&W speakers, I have heard it sooo many times and am now convinced that that this is THE PERFECT combination for what my ears find ideal.