Need some advice concerning my B&W703's

[george_k]

I was sick this whole past weekend (boo!) but I got to spend a lot of time with my system watching movies and listening to music (yay!). Having spent all this time with my setup I noticed that I like what they do for movies but dislike what they do for music (note: I upgraded to 703's just prior to the holidays).

For movie viewing, these speakers image incredibly well and draw you right into the movie. I find that they also disappear into the background (note: No center channel is used and I honestly don't feel I'm missing one).

For music listening at 75-85dB because I listen mainly to rock, I noticed that I tend to get tired of listening after 20mins or so. In my case, the fourth song to come on was welcome to the jungle (playlist) and the 3 songs prior to this bothered my ears as well. I let jungle play for 2 mins before deciding to leave the room, I had enough at that point.

I then also noticed that I got as annoyed while listening to my system from the other room while browsing the web/chatting on my computer so I walked back and turned it off. At low volume < 70dB, these speakers don't tire me but rock music just doesn't sound like rock music at these levels.

I gather that the 3 variables I need to look at are: my room, equipment and speakers (either speaker placement or speaker replacement)

Have any of you experienced a similar problem? I'd like to hear what you did about it.

Speaker placement:
Roughly 8-8.5 feet apart with zero toe-in.

Equipment:
Squeezebox v3 (CD has been library converted to Flac)
NAD C272 150w x 2
NAD T742 (acting as pre)

[dknightd]

I have the 703. They do appear to be a little bright. I think something funny might be going on right around the cross over frequency between mid and tweeter. It maybe due to the difference in dispersion of mid and tweet at this frequency, It maybe a problem with the fst mid, It maybe just how they were designed. The 703 do need an amp that can deliver current (else they sound even brighter), but I'd guess your NAD should be up to the task.

What I found that helped was room treatments. I already had a rug on the floor between speaker and listener. I added 4" thick 3lb/ft**3 compressed fiberglass at the first reflection points on the walls - this helped quite a bit. During this stage I also added some 8" thick in some corners for broadband bass absorbtion. Then I added similar absorption (made from combination of 2", 4", and 6" thick - in a crude attempt to make it look more architectural) on the ceiling at the first reflection point - Bingo! - the ceiling treatment made a huge improvement. My speakers now sound great if I'm sitting where first reflections are absorbed. They are still a little bright if I'm not in that zone. (my room might need a little more softening)

A couple of thoughts. What do you think made you fatigue? Can you trace to any particular thing? (my guess would be the peak around 4khz these speakers seem to have). The other thought is the speakers might have sounded bad to you because you were sick! When you're sick you're ears do not always work the way they should. . .

For some time I thought I might have made a mistake with the 703. They reproduced acoustic instruments better than anything else I heard for the price - that fst midrange really can sound nice. They also sounded good with a wide variety of music. I listen mostly to rock and reggae, but like to include acoustical instruments (including well recorded voice) in my auditioning mix, because I have at least some idea how they are supposed to sound. After listening to them for a few months, I have decided they are keepers. Some of that change in opinion might have been the speakers breaking in (though that is unlikely since I bought them as demos), some due to tweaking the room, and some just due to me getting used to them. Mostly I think it was room tweaking)

Edit: this does seem to be related to volume - which makes me think that MAYBE the fst midrange dispersion is different depending on volume at the upperend of its frequency passband. Or it could just be room echos bother a person more when the volume is higher.

[george_k]

Hey dk,

Following you suggestions I added whatever I had on hand as absorption to my room. I positioned two large 9'x4' cubicle walls (they're soft) on either side of my speaker and about mid-way between the speakers and my listening position.

I then grabbed my large and poofy comforter and put it up to cover the window behind the seating spot (my curtains are pretty thin). I also go rid of the coffee table that usually sits between me and my speakers. My floor already has a rug in place. Ceiling is made of concrete but has got a coarse/pebbly finish to it.

Results? It heard a difference, I played Don't Cry from GNR Use Your Illusions I (MFSL pressing) and with the extra absorption in place the song was borderline tolerable, it didn't bug me. I used the first guitar solo as the acid test, the wailing guitar, I find, is borderline ear bleeding.

I then decided to start experimenting with the treble setting on my receiver using two songs for my test: 1) Don't Cry (original) and 2) Countdown to Extinction (Megadeth)

Treble @ -10dB: Very tolerable, but detail is lacking
Treble @ neutral: Borderline listenable
Treble @ +10dB: Ouch! turned music off within 5-10 seconds

After all this I returned my room back to normal and set the treble back to neutral, and I put on Don't Cry again at the same volume level as before...my listening session lasted may 20-30 seconds before it bugged me enough to turn it off. I probably could have stayed and listened more but my ears were a little sensitive treble setting testing.

So based on all this I'd have to agree that my room is part of the problem. I also think that the speakers have something fatiguing about them as well. Your also right about how these speakers handle instruments and voice, I listen to Bach Cello Suites and Eva Cassidy's Live at Blues Alley a fair amount and when these are on regardless of the volume level they sound nice.

At this point I'm wondering if I should start shopping for a new speaker :roll:

[joetama]

If they are brand new out of the box you might just want to try to get a few 100 Hours on them.

I noticed that at about 100 hours my 703 really started to become smooth and blended into themselves much better than they did when they were brand new. I even purchased store demos which had a few hours on them.

Also, play with the toe in, this can make a BIG difference. And you can also try to tilt the cabinet back a degree or two. I noticed this helps them sound better than ever.

[george_k]

Speakers should have at least 200hrs on them based on a rough but conservative guesstimate.

Funny you should mention toe-in my thought was that if I toed them in the treble would become even more pronounced.

[jack667]

I read lots of reviews about 703 being too bright etc - when you initially bought them, what else did you audition?

[RebelMan]

Speakers should have at least 200hrs on them based on a rough but conservative guesstimate.

Funny you should mention toe-in my thought was that if I toed them in the treble would become even more pronounced.

Toe-in improves imaging but lessens sound staging and could exacerbate your situation. What were you using before the upgrade?

[dknightd]

I'm not familiar with those two tunes - is it possible they were supposed to be ear bleeding? Or maybe they were mastered to be played on less revealing speakers?

I'd wait till you get over your sick, and ears had returned to normal. Then try again.

It could be the 703 is not for you.

[bigburner]

Hi George,

I had the same experience with my CDM9NT speakers. The 9NT is the predecessor to the 703 and sounds very similar. I have gained improvements by adding room treatments (rugs on my wooden floor and additional furniture), an external DAC and a new preamp. The addition of a subwoofer has also possibly improved the sound by taking some pressure off my 9NTs (and amp) at high volume.

However I have concluded that the main cause of the problem is the fact that some recordings are simply too bright. These recordings are probably going to sound bright on most systems. For those recordings I resort to using the tone controls on my new preamp.

I have also noticed that my mood effects my perception of the sound. When I'm in a receptive mood most music sounds rich and full. When I'm not in the mood most music sounds thin and anaemic. The brain's interpretation of sound is not a topic that features widely in this forum or others.

Nigel.

[RebelMan]

I'd wait till you get over your sick, and ears had returned to normal. Then try again.

This is excellent advice. All sorts of habits and consumables (certain types of food and medicine to name two) can negatively effect your hearing.

[NMG]

Lots of really good points here. I also have 703's and I agree completely with two of the things that have been discussed:

1) Let them break in. They WILL settle in with time. I was skeptical about break in when I first got mine, but they are much smoother now than they were out of the box.
2) The 703's are a revealing speaker so bad recordings WILL sound bad. There is no way around this. On the flip side, good recordings will sound GREAT. GNR isn't exactly "smooth" music so if it is a recording issue on those particular CD's, I can see how it would be horrific to listen to at loud volumes. I have one of the GNR greatest hits CD's and some songs are great, others sound screechy and thin. It's completely dependant on the mix of the particular song.

I suggest trying some different material to see if you notice the same issues before deciding on the fate of your 703's. For the few CD's I have where I put up with the bad recordings, there are loads of great recordings that really put a smile on your face when being played back.

[RobP]

Ceiling is made of concrete but has got a coarse/pebbly finish to it.

This and the recording are more than likely your biggest culprits, first reflections happen on the ceiling as well as your walls, you took care of the side walls well, but that ceiling will have to be dealt with, this goes for ANY speaker you use, concrete is the worst material for reflections.

Also remember that your speakers actually have 4 first reflection points on the side walls, not two.

[george_k]

Thanks for the replies guys there's a lot if truth in what was said, my room is definitely not optimal and I will be doing something about it this summer when I can work out of my friends garage.

On the topic of recordings most of the Rock that I have and listen to I eventually get annoyed of, I guess they're all to some degree recorded poorly and that this wasn't as big a deal back when my entire system cost less than $1000.

Rather than change my speakers right away, I'm going to start demoing some different electronics (preamp and amp) to see if I find something that makes for musically satisfying listening. So far off the top of my head I'm thinking McIntosh equipment possibly something like an MA6500/6900 or a C220+MC252 or a C220+MC275.

I plan on going to the Montreal FSI 2008 show to check out some equipment.

[cug]

Rather than change my speakers right away, I'm going to start demoing some different electronics (preamp and amp) to see if I find something that makes for musically satisfying listening. So far off the top of my head I'm thinking McIntosh equipment possibly something like an MA6500/6900 or a C220+MC252 or a C220+MC275.

Hmmm. I doubt that this will make your recordings sound any better ... poor recordings will be even more annoying the better the equipment is. E.g. I can't stand some of my CDs since I've switched my gear to the current.

[SPACEMANRICK]

I pulled out a rock album by the Cult today that I have not listened to ever on my 2 channel stereo system and it sounded horrible (I gave up after about 2 minutes). ACDC Back in Black from 1981 remastered sounds pretty darn good though..........I listened to that for about 1 hour :-)............It is sometimes hard to predict the quality of a recording and how good it will actually sound on your system. Some music that you think will sound great doesn't turn out that way and some surprise you how good they sound, for example the Red Hot Chili Peppers Stadium Arcadium also sounds great.

[NMG]

Hmmm. I doubt that this will make your recordings sound any better ... poor recordings will be even more annoying the better the equipment is

I have to agree here. I just don't think that different components will deliver the type of change that you may be expecting or anticipating. Of course, if you want the Mac stuff, go for it! Just be aware that the components may not be the weak link at this point in time.

Good luck!

[george_k]

Hmmm. I doubt that this will make your recordings sound any better ... poor recordings will be even more annoying the better the equipment is

Very true, it's too bad that this is the case through.

But by my logic I don't think it could hurt to audition equipment that is known to be more musical. Right now I feel that my setup gives me too much of a "front row" sound. If I could find equipment that moves the soundstage back a bit further and that at the same time is a bit sweeter sounding it may help take the edge off the less than ideal recordings while still sounding good.

If better equipment doesn't help then I'll start looking at other options such as different speakers or the possibility of building a smaller bedroom system.

for example the Red Hot Chili Peppers Stadium Arcadium also sounds great.

Actually I thought it was recorded very poorly, you can hear the instruments clipping in some of the songs and overall the album is heavily compressed. If their music was any harder it would probably hurt the ears much like the rock stuff does. It's still a great album though and it's too bad the recording of it was geared towards the ipod crowd. Maybe that's another solution I need to look at ;-)

[DL86]

Agreed RHCPSA was recorded very bad. Clipping occurs a lot I can barely listen to that album on my set up. Easier listening to it on a lesser quality set up that doesn't reveal as much.

[SPACEMANRICK]

Perhaps I am showing a personal bias for one of my favorite bands, but in regards to hard rock music I think Stadium Arcadium is recorded better than most hard rock recordings.

Keep in mind I am not comparing this to non hard rock music (Miles Davis, Norah Jones, and Patricia Barber are no doubt recorded much better and cleaner) but for heavy guitar and bass I can't find many that sound too much better. If you have any suggestions for hard rock that are recorded better please pass them on my way and I will gladly check them out.......

[joetama]

Perhaps I am showing a personal bias for one of my favorite bands, but in regards to hard rock music I think Stadium Arcadium is recorded better than most hard rock recordings.

Keep in mind I am not comparing this to non hard rock music (Miles Davis, Norah Jones, and Patricia Barber are no doubt recorded much better and cleaner) but for heavy guitar and bass I can't find many that sound too much better. If you have any suggestions for hard rock that are recorded better please pass them on my way and I will gladly check them out.......

I see what you are saying about SA being recorded better than most rock albums. To be honest, after moving up in the Hi-Fi world I rarely listen to Rock anymore, except in the car where everythings sounds like mush.

Once and a while I put in the ol' Bolt Thrower just for giggles... :E

[Allegiance]

Perhaps I am showing a personal bias for one of my favorite bands, but in regards to hard rock music I think Stadium Arcadium is recorded better than most hard rock recordings.

Keep in mind I am not comparing this to non hard rock music (Miles Davis, Norah Jones, and Patricia Barber are no doubt recorded much better and cleaner) but for heavy guitar and bass I can't find many that sound too much better. If you have any suggestions for hard rock that are recorded better please pass them on my way and I will gladly check them out.......

Tool, very well recorded. Try Lateralus, it's a HDCD too. Oh, 10,000 day's is good too.

[Mig17]

I think you should upgarde your processor which is important in both music or movie
to other brands like Rotel or Arcam or Anthem

[Briz vegas]

I pulled out a rock album by the Cult today that I have not listened to ever on my 2 channel stereo system and it sounded horrible (I gave up after about 2 minutes). ACDC Back in Black from 1981 remastered sounds pretty darn good though..........I listened to that for about 1 hour :-)............It is sometimes hard to predict the quality of a recording and how good it will actually sound on your system. Some music that you think will sound great doesn't turn out that way and some surprise you how good they sound, for example the Red Hot Chili Peppers Stadium Arcadium also sounds great.

You got me curious so I got out my Cult - just played She sells Sanctuary at 85db at the listening chair (slow response on the old RS meter). No problems at all (85db is my loud level, any more than this and my neighbours would have reasonable grounds to complain).

Not audio nirvana but a more than acceptable bit of nostalgia. I think it is the difference between a ruthlessly revealing etched system and a revealing system that is musical. I use a thick blanket directly behind my listening position and it makes highs sweeter and clearer.

This discussion has been had before but I still think if your system puts you off the music you enjoy then you need to change your system (Room, treatments, cables source, amp, speakers, whatever is not working). Nothing dumber than "I've got this sh#t hot system, but it makes my music sound like cats fighting - but bland elevator music rocks" - cos that just ain't a hot system.

Interesting about the MFSL recordings, will have to look out for those.

[george_k]

ruthlessly revealing etched system and a revealing system that is musical.

I think in a few words that describes my dilemma, I want the later but I believe I have the former. I was listening to a couple of U2 albums yesterday including How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb...very enjoyable, no irritation but their music is a lot more mellow and the albums are recorded much better than the average recording.

[george_k]

Just an update, I gave my system a listen over the weekend.

I still find it a tad too much on the bright. I was a little more tolerant about it now that I'm no longer sick but it is still there.

A few more things I've noticed, the musical presentation is quite good but I find that it doesn't get me very involved. I've read comments on this forum about how some people will put in a cd and completely loose track of time listening to it...that doesn't happen to me even when I'm trying disconnect from reality for a bit.

Also, the system puts out a great 2D soundstage, the presentation seems like it spans 10-12 feet across but it remains very 2D. I tried re-orientating my room so that the speakers sit along the longer wall but I found that the central coherency was lost.

I spoke to my dealer about some of my concerns and he feels that my equipment is to blame.

I guess my question is, in your experience, has better equipment + additional room treatment taken a setup from borderline macaroni&cheese-blah to Borat's-wawawewa?

At this point, I'm considering a lateral move towards a pair of 805's and a sub.

[dknightd]

It could be you'll like the 805/sub combo more than the 703. It could also be you like other speakers better (have you listened to the paradigm 100? for mostly rock music it might be a good alternative for you - and it might be cheaper - how about the sig 8? - there are lots of good speakers out there).

My first suggestion would be to take the music you like to listen to the store for a demo (pick pieces you like - both ones that bother you, and ones that do not, but always things you like and know). Maybe you have already done this. If so, do it again.
Will the dealer let you bring home the 805/sub combo for a home demo? If so, do that if you like them better than the 703 in the store.

I used to build my own speakers and tweak them to the room. Then I bought 703 and tweaked the room to them. Tweaking my room has changed the 703 from something that I was ready to sell into something I want to keep. I can happily listen to music for hours and hours. Yes, I think I would prefer 802d or 800d, but that is not in my budget.

The 805 is a fine speaker. You may prefer it. Matching it with a sub takes a little more
work, but that might be worth it to you. Sometimes I like to listen to my music loud - I found with most 2ways the midrange suffered when asked to play loud. Unfortunately there is no right answer - at this price point you can get pretty close - at a much higher price point you can get closer - but I've yet to hear a speaker system that does it all well - so you have to pick the compromise that works best for you . . .

[dknightd]

One more thought - not all music is made to be calming and soothing.

[george_k]

Hey dknightd,

My dealer only sells B&W and Martin Logan, I'd prefer to stay with him because he's always been good to me about buying back my speakers at full or near retail value whenever I've thought of upgrading.

I've already started sketching drawings of diffuser and absorption panels for my ceiling and walls. I plan on building them when the weather gets warmer.

One more question, can you get your speakers to reproduce more of a 3D sound stage?

*edit*
About the comment on music you made, I listened mostly to U2 albums this weekend which are recorded substantially better then some of my other stuff. Brightness was still there albeit at a lesser extent than in other recordings and only when the volume was loud (70-80dB SPL). The other comments about being uninvolved and 2D sound stage still hold.

[wgriel]

George, I wouldn't be at all surprised if room treatments do fix your problems.

I also have 703s in a room that's not ideal and there are some things that the speakers don't do here that they did in the well treated room at the dealer. The 3 dimensional sound stage is one of them: listening at the dealer, the speakers threw an awesome sound stage that was wide and deep. I get the wide part here, but not the depth.

I know my room is the culprit and I'm going to address this as best as possible in the next few months.

I don't find the speakers overly bright - well, some recordings do sound that way, but most of what I listen to (mostly jazz, blues and classical) sounds phenomenal. I find that all too often rock is poorly recorded and can be disappointing to listen to, but there are exceptions.

Pink floyd is amazing, as are many of the "audiophile" vinyl masterings of classic rock titles. Come to think of it, I'm getting more pleasure out of vinyl than digital recordings though I don't quite know why that should be.

I can certainly get lost in the music listening to the 703s though! But I think they are a speaker that can be quite sensitive to the room they sit in, and some treatments may go a long way to helping them sound their best.

[dknightd]

My speakers will sometimes surprise me by where they make it seem the sound is coming from. Sometimes it sounds right, othertimes, not so.
I'm of the opinion that 3d soundstage is either in the recording or it is not. If it is there you can sometimes adjust it by moving the speakers relative to walls, and, by playing with toe in.
To be honest, this is something I don't pay much attention to. I only really notice it when something seems to be coming from the wrong place.

Edit: Does your NAD have digital inputs? Have you tried comparing the DACs in the squeezebox to the dacs in the NAD reciever?

[george_k]

Have you tried comparing the DACs in the squeezebox to the dacs in the NAD reciever

Yes I have and the DAC in the squeezebox is superior in reproducing mid frequencies and vocals and in expanding the sound stage two-dimensionally (adds airiness to the instruments).

Where it lacks though is in the bass frequencies. I'm not sure if the NAD emphasizes bass or if the SB de-emphasizes bass but the bottom line the bass isn't there with the SB. For dance/electronic music I tend to use the NAD DAC.

I'm hoping a better DAC such as the Lavry DA10 will make a big improvement.

[Mitchell]

I also have 703's
some of my experiences were as follows:
1) when I bought them home theys seemed harsh. As they broke in they sounded better and continued to improve dramatically. I would not have believed that to be true.
2) Rock did not sound as good as jazz or classical. I have been listening to rock for decades. I know every note of many songs. Many recordings are terrible and my system will bring that out. I heard things I had never heard before. When I go in the car and hear the same songs they sound like I remember them.
Someone recently told me that the way they test mixes for years now is in a car. Also cars tend to have heavy bass so increasing the high end to compete might be a consequence that hurts in the house. Overall I understand that audiophiles and serious musicians lament a serious decrease in the quality of rock recordings and remixes of alot of original analog material. Conversly good recordings sound amazing. Try Steeley Dan Aja or Neil youngs greatest hits on HDCD or similar.
I would be interested in hearing your opinion on this.
Jazz and classical sound uniformly good. I listen to lots of Miles Davis and it sounds great. As an experiment try running your IPOD or similar through your system. Even though much is lost I find that for some rock the loss of detail helps. I am not sure why.
I hope this is helpful.
Mitchell

[bigburner]

I'm of the opinion that 3d soundstage is either in the recording or it is not.

I agree.

[RebelMan]

3D imaging and soundstaging are bound by the proficiency of the system to remain faithful to the recording.

[george_k]

I borrowed a buddy's copy Aja yesterday night I will give it a good listen later this week and provide my comments. It's on regular CD though.

Also, I did more extensive listening this weekend comparing the DAC in the squeezebox to the DAC in my NAD receiver.

Without getting into too much technical jargon, I find that the SB DAC enhances the mid frequencies and this is particularly apparent with vocals. By enhance I mean that these actual frequencies sound louder and more resolved. It's almost as if your sitting in the front rows at a concert.

The NAD DAC sounds a lot more balanced. No frequencies sound more pronounced over others but the presentation sounds a bit more veiled and less alive. The sound is almost like what you'd hear if you were sitting far in the back at a concert. Also there is noticeably more bass output.

The SB DAC does a wonderful job on jazz and classical recordings but is a bit too revealing when it comes to rock.

Originally Posted by dknightd
I'm of the opinion that 3d soundstage is either in the recording or it is not.

I agree.

Any suggested recordings that you are familiar with that I should listen to? I could give them a listen and write back with comments.

[Rod S]

try Brand New Day by Sting.
I played this one the first time I heard 802's driven by a couple of Mac 501's in a dealer set up. Very nice details and for me had a very nice 3D feel and plenty air around the instruments.