Which sub would you choose?

[george_k]

I'm trying to decide between these two subs -- which of them is the better value?. My system is 2ch setup meant mostly for music but I still use it for tv/movies/gaming. Btw, I'm from Canada so the pricing may seem a little higher up here.

MJ Acoustics Ref 150 MKII ($1098 including taxes)

http://www.mjacoustics.co.uk/MJ_Acoustics/Product_html/Ref_150.htm

Pros:
- Remote control (useful for turning sub on/off at night from the couch or for fine tuning volume)
Cons:
- Smaller amplifier (I imagine clipping will occur during some movies/games but not for music listening in general)

-------------------------

B&W ASW 700 ($1536 including taxes)

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1101&terid=1136

Pros:
-Beefier amplifier (500w vs 150w)
Cons:
-No remote
-No speaker level inputs

Another pro/con I've thought of is the fact that the ASW700 can be ordered in matching veneer as my 703's while the MJ cannot. But, the ASW700 also takes up a bit more floor space (+2" width, +4" depth) which is a bit of a problem as I live in a small apartment. I find neither of these more compelling than the other so for me they cancel each other out.

[DL86]

Given your needs I would say the Velodyne SPL-1200R or 1000R would be the best choice. Small size, able to match your 703's in color, 1000W digital amplifier, remote control, 6 band auto EQ and very musical (I have heard both of them).

http://www.velodyne.com/products/product.aspx?ID=13&sid=220p516u

Cheers

[Karma]

HI George,
I find it interesting that nowhere in your post do you mention the sound quality of the sub. Subs are definitely not created equal. Yet your post seems to dismiss that fact. You would never buy your main speakers that way.

In addition to the creature comforts like remote control (which I also like), the sonics are very important and should be the basis for your choice. I never get into the "I recommend this or that brand" threads. There are too many pieces I have never heard and your taste may be completely different than mine.

So here are some sonic tips to help you get started:
1. Integration: The most important quality a sub can have is its ability to integrate with the sound of your main speakers. Ideally, you should never be able to identify the sub as a separate source. The sound should be cut from one cloth. This is where most people fail. Therefore, your choice of main speaker’s should factor into your choice of subs. Each should be bought with the other in mind.

2. Deep bass: This is obvious. One must consider use. HT demands more "thud" power than music. Music, OTH, requires more finesse. Trying to get both is a challenge and usually ends with a compromise.

3. Low distortion: Items 2 and 3 often work against each other. Only good subs can do both.

4. Power: You need a lot of in-room power. This is not always indicated by the power amp spec.

5. Bass driver size: The bigger the better. Subs have to work very hard.

6. Room placement: Dual subs are almost always better. Duals give you many more placement options to counter the always present room resonant nodes. Plus, each has to work half as hard, always good.

7. Appearance: A very personal thing but important to me.

Sparky

[Mark-n-b]

...Only good subs can do both...

Which subs, in your opinon, do both music and HT well?

Cheers,

mark

P.S. personally george_k i would go with the ASW-700 for no other reason than the 703 and 700 should integrate well, and as you say you can order the 700 in the same colour as the 703s. Is there no way you could go to the ASW-750?

[Karma]

HI Mark,
You are mixing apples and oranges in reference to my post. When I said "only good subs can do both" I was referrng to items 2 & 3. In other words deep bass, with power, works against low distortion. Smaller drivers only underline this.

I'll go no further than saying that for my 805S based HT/music system I chose dual B&W's ASW800 subs. This is a secondary system located in my bedroom. It is not a large room (16' X 12' X 8') yet I wish I could have justified the larger subs with the 15" drivers rather than the 12 inchers. It's clear, especially with sound tracks, the subs sometimes run out of dynamic range. Fortunately, it's rare.

My main music system is totally different but it too has very large dual subs. It has great, earth shaking bass yet integrates with the electrostatic mains perfectly. Integration measures the success of your efforts.

My objective is not to suggest products to you but give you the tools you need to ask the right questions, set your prioritis, and make your own choice. I won't move from that position. Others are more than willing to suggest products, usually the ones they own. There is a wealth of information on the WEB.

Sparky

[Mark-n-b]

Ok thank you Karma,

I think you may have misinterpreted my question - I was just curious. I dont have the room nor the resources to build 2 seperate dedicated systems for music and ht, so one system must be capable of doing both for me, hence my qustion.

In any case, I will most probably stick with 2×ASW-855 to go with either 4×803D or 4×802D, have not decided yet.

[Karma]

HI Mark,
The ASW855's would have been my first choice because 1. very deep, powerful, low distortion bass and 2. they integrate with my 805S's like they are from the same family.

I'm sceptical about putting subs on the floorstanding B&W's for music. They have very good bass response by themselves and I think integration is very difficult. Be sure to spend some as much as possible time listening to the combo. For HT it may be worth the effort if you watch lots of movies. This subject has been written about here. Do a search.

For this reason I did not buy B&W floorstanders. It was not a money issue. Rather, I knew I could get great system bass performance with 805S's and B&W subs in my small room. This presents a totally different crossover situation which is an advantage, IMO.

Sparky

[Mark-n-b]

HI Mark,
The ASW855's would have been my first choice because 1. very deep, powerful, low distortion bass and 2. they integrate with my 805S's like they are from the same family.

I'm sceptical about putting subs on the floorstanding B&W's for music. They have very good bass response by themselves and I think integration is very difficult. Be sure to spend some as much as possible time listening to the combo. For HT it may be worth the effort if you watch lots of movies. This subject has been written about here. Do a search.

For this reason I did not buy B&W floorstanders. It was not a money issue. Rather, I knew I could get great system bass performance with 805S's and B&W subs in my small room. This presents a totally different crossover situation which is an advantage, IMO.

Sparky

Thank you, yes I agree that the speakers themselves will be very extended in the bass, and i may not need subs at all. Just thinking ahead really.

george_k, have you decided yet?

[george_k]

No decision yet but I did find yet another contender

SVS SP12 Plus:
- 12" driver
- small footprint
- 425watt amp
- tons of settings to aid integration
- rosenut finish
- price = $799?

DL86, the Velodyne is only available in black and cherry, not rosenut (unless the website is out of date?)

[Ted]

No decision yet but I did find yet another contender

SVS SP12 Plus:
- 12" driver
- small footprint
- 425watt amp
- tons of settings to aid integration
- rosenut finish
- price = $799?

DL86, the Velodyne is only available in black and cherry, not rosenut (unless the website is out of date?)

George_k

I don't have your exact situation, but for what it is worth, here is some semi-relevant info for you.

I also have a 2 channel B&W 703 set-up in Rosenut. I don't have or feel the need for a sub with this system so I can't help too much with what works well with the 703s. However, I also have a HT set-up using B&W CM7s and a CM-C, also in Rosenut. In addition, I have a SVS PB12-Plus in Rosenut.

I have been very happy with the SVS sub and how well it has integrated with the B&W's. The quality of the workmanship is great I think and sonically it has not disappointed at all. As far as the finish, it is beautiful too, but depending on how perfectly it needs to match, it may let you down a little. My 703s and the CM series both in Rosenut are not the same. Color-wise they are, but my 703 are more of a textured wood veneer and the CM's are totally smooth veneer. I think both are great, just not the same. The SVS sub is also smooth like the CM's. The other thing with the finish is, it (the sub) has a more red look to it and is not as deep of color. Now, mine is in a basement in my cramped version of a HT that throughout much of the day is not well lit, so it works for me. Also, due to room limitations, the sub and one floor stander sit right next to each other, it may not be as noticeable if you have room to separate the two some. These are really pretty minor things for me, but may be a bigger deal for you. I've included a couple pictures, which may exaggerate the difference with the flash, but it'll give you an idea what I mean.

I've been very happy with the set-up though. Oh, and I found SVS's customer service excellent, they were very helpful in answering my questions, even e-mailing me back a couple hours later on the same day, which was a Sunday!

As a side not, I asked my dealer who I bought all my speakers from about the B&W subs and he said not to get one, he told me to keep what I had at the time (a Velodyne SPL-1200II), I'd be happier. He's not impressed with the B&W's. I figure anytime a salesperson doesn't want you to spend your money on something, that's a sign not to buy it... Of course I've read threads with people who love theirs too and I have no personal experience with them, so take this all with a big grain of salt.

Good luck!

[WI Rotel]

HI George,
I find it interesting that nowhere in your post do you mention the sound quality of the sub. Subs are definitely not created equal. Yet your post seems to dismiss that fact. You would never buy your main speakers that way.

In addition to the creature comforts like remote control (which I also like), the sonics are very important and should be the basis for your choice. I never get into the "I recommend this or that brand" threads. There are too many pieces I have never heard and your taste may be completely different than mine.

So here are some sonic tips to help you get started:
1. Integration: The most important quality a sub can have is its ability to integrate with the sound of your main speakers. Ideally, you should never be able to identify the sub as a separate source. The sound should be cut from one cloth. This is where most people fail. Therefore, your choice of main speaker’s should factor into your choice of subs. Each should be bought with the other in mind.

2. Deep bass: This is obvious. One must consider use. HT demands more "thud" power than music. Music, OTH, requires more finesse. Trying to get both is a challenge and usually ends with a compromise.

3. Low distortion: Items 2 and 3 often work against each other. Only good subs can do both.

4. Power: You need a lot of in-room power. This is not always indicated by the power amp spec.

5. Bass driver size: The bigger the better. Subs have to work very hard.

6. Room placement: Dual subs are almost always better. Duals give you many more placement options to counter the always present room resonant nodes. Plus, each has to work half as hard, always good.

7. Appearance: A very personal thing but important to me.

Sparky

Sparky looks like you are describing PV1's :B

Pricey but definitely the best looking and most musical sub out there. BTW I'd take the PV1 over the AS 700 any day 365 days a year!

[Karma]

Sparky looks like you are describing PV1's :B

Pricey but definitely the best looking and most musical sub out there. BTW I'd take the PV1 over the AS 700 any day 365 days a year!

HI WI,
OK.

Sparky