Internal BW wires ?

[lvhung]

Last night I opened my old bw 602 speakers and saw the internal wires
from the bingind posts to the crossover and from the crossover to the drivers quite thin and poor cables
any one of you replace the wires with better cables?

[Stevebez]

I often fiond internal speaker cable is solid and not braided and gives the appearence of being "poor" .... since the cable is not required to move / bend using solid cable is then most economical. You can also use a thinner gauge if you use a solid cable than if you use a braided cable ... if the cable can handle the current (i.e. exibit no rise in heat - and therefore increase its resistance), and it is properly insulated (to avoid interference) ... changing the cable is going to do zip. Using a non indivdually insulated braided cable wil make not difference as any skin effects will be the same. You will need to used a multibraided cable with individually insulated sections to overcome some high frequency skin effects - if any are present - aka Litz wire..

I know some exotic silver dixoide monchrome polished oxygenless cable is much more expensive and supossedly better ... but in a blind test you will not tell the difference. The different metal will at the very best only at the very extreme affect the manner in which the electrons shift due to different conductivity of the metal and therefore different resistances.... if you think you can hear this difference you got much better hearing than me.

Only silver is a better conductor than copper... and its quite marginal at that - no point in changing copper wire for another copper wire unless the shielding is superior and you suffer from interference... assuming the cable can carry the current.

Having said this - I found this article very intersting ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

And then there is thios piece too from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_effect_%28electromagnetism%29

...
Cables
Proximity effect can also occur within electrical cables. For example, if the conductors are a pair of audio speaker wires, their currents have opposite direction, and currents will preferentially flow along the sides of the wires that are facing each other. The AC resistance of the wires will dynamically change (slightly) along with the audio signal. Some believe that this will potentially introduce distortion and degrade stereo imaging. However, it can be shown that, for reasonable conductor sizes, spacing, and length, this effect is so small as to have an immeasurable practical impact on audio quality....

[Iggurk]

Hello!

I've changed all the cables on my 70x speakers, and I can tell you that the difference is really noticeable.

The first speakers I've modified are my 705, and after having realized the quality jump I've obtained by just changing the internal cables, I've modified the rest of the speakers (filters, damping,...), but that's another story.

To know:
- I've used the same cable as the one I use between amp and speaker, I won't recommend you to used silver cables, it's too expensive and useless for your speakers range.
- I've removed as much as possible the useless parts between binding posts ans speakers, there is a lot of them, see pictures below.
- I've soldered the cables instead of using connectors.
- I've used mono core cable for tweeter and multi core for medium and woofer.

Below is a picture of the poor binding posts used by B&W on the 70x series, no comments regarding the number of parts used....




regards
Yves

[george_k]

Below is a picture of the poor binding posts

Where?

I'd imagine changing the wire would void your 5 yr warranty?

[Glen B]

Hello!


Below is a picture of the poor binding posts used by B&W on the 70x series, no comments regarding the number of parts used....




regards
Yves

I'm inclined to agree that B&W/Classé appear to not be using the finest possible grade connectors. I was recently looking to upgrade the plain brass output "bolts" with steel internal hardware in my Classé legacy amp and investigated which WBT model Classé was using in current products. Their service department had the posts available for sale but at the asking price, they had to be either economy or midline grade at best. I ended up just ordering a set of Toplines from Madisound. I would have used NextGen instead but those require soldering and IMO the gas-tight crimped copper-to-copper connection of the Toplines is better than having signal flow through a solder connection.

[Redhawk]

How are the wires actually attached to the back of the speakers? I've CM7's, CM Centre, and CM1's and would like to put FST midranges in the centre and 1's to match the 7's. Partly to get better sound, but mostly just to mess with them to learn more.

[Ted]

How are the wires actually attached to the back of the speakers? I've CM7's, CM Centre, and CM1's and would like to put FST midranges in the centre and 1's to match the 7's. Partly to get better sound, but mostly just to mess with them to learn more.

I'm no expert, but that wouldn't work with the crossovers would it? And on the CM1, I don't think you'd get any bass out of them at all then, the midrange isn't supposed to have much movement, vs. a driver that reproduces bass which needs to move much more...

I've got CM7s and a CM-C too, I hope they add to the line and have a 3 way center someday...

[Redhawk]

Do you know where the cutoff is between the midrange and bass is on the CM7?

[Iggurk]

here is a picture of the 703 FST speaker:



more inside pictures here:

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29794475

Redhawk, if you want to improve your CM don't change the speakers, mod the filter, change the binding posts, the internal cables and dampen the case.

Regards
Yves

[Fraise]

so i'd like to ask a question without trying to open up a can of worms, why would B&W put so much money in R&D for their speakers and enclosures and such but then skimp out on the few feet of cables inside if they make such a difference. I mean its not like B&W's are budget speakers. does anyone have any measureable differences between standard and upgraded? (just like they do with interconnects :P )

[Iggurk]

B&W focus R&D mainly on 8th series, then they re-use some of the components on lower series.

For me, they develop the speakers to obtain the best possible result, then, they review them to reach the sound and the price they want to reach for the model range.

The 60x and 70x must also be quick and easy to build to offer a good price, and if they use parts as good as it is in 80x series, the final retail price will be much higher, closer to the above range.

By upgrading internal wire, solder instead of using many contact parts, and review filter components (and sometime schema), you maximize the potential of the speakers themselves.

In the case of my 705, I've spend approx 250$ for new parts, for a speaker that cost ~750$.

That could seems really expensive for some of you, but I can tell you that the quality jump is simply amazing.

I'll never change my 705 for 805, and my 703 for 803, I'll directlly jump to at least full 802D (with my actual electronics 80x will perhaps sound worse than my 70x).

But it's not always the case, sometimes the modded speakers doesn't sound better than before, and sometime it's even worse than before, so think twice before modding.

It also took me quite lot of time and tests to obtain a speaker that sound much better than before.

So I won't recommand to change filter components and internal wires on all speakers, these mods have a certain price if you use high end parts, and it will IMHO be kind of non sense to put more money to mod them than the price of the speakers.
Depending the speakers you have it's better to simply change them instead of modding them.

[Redhawk]

Sent you a PM...

B&W focus R&D mainly on 8th series, then they re-use some of the components on lower series.

For me, they develop the speakers to obtain the best possible result, then, they review them to reach the sound and the price they want to reach for the model range.

The 60x and 70x must also be quick and easy to build to offer a good price, and if they use parts as good as it is in 80x series, the final retail price will be much higher, closer to the above range.

By upgrading internal wire, solder instead of using many contact parts, and review filter components (and sometime schema), you maximize the potential of the speakers themselves.

In the case of my 705, I've spend approx 250$ for new parts, for a speaker that cost ~750$.

That could seems really expensive for some of you, but I can tell you that the quality jump is simply amazing.

I'll never change my 705 for 805, and my 703 for 803, I'll directlly jump to at least full 802D (with my actual electronics 80x will perhaps sound worse than my 70x).

But it's not always the case, sometimes the modded speakers doesn't sound better than before, and sometime it's even worse than before, so think twice before modding.

It also took me quite lot of time and tests to obtain a speaker that sound much better than before.

So I won't recommand to change filter components and internal wires on all speakers, these mods have a certain price if you use high end parts, and it will IMHO be kind of non sense to put more money to mod them than the price of the speakers.
Depending the speakers you have it's better to simply change them instead of modding them.

[nicky]

I agree with Stevebez.

I used to be obsessed with cables and after many years of experience and also talking to my share of engineers and experts in the matter, there is very very very little difference in sound quality between plain looking solid copper cables that are fairly priced and the "exotic" "good looking" cables that cost an arm and a leg. Most experts laugh at people who pay an arm and a leg for the "exotic" cables that look "awesome" and say it's the biggest rip off in the audio industry.

If you believe buying the expensive cables will make your speaker sound better and make a HUGE difference, then subjectively, you are going to think it sounds different and better. But in listening studies....double blinded studies based on people listening, the choice that people make that they think sounds better are about 50/50 between the expensive and the much cheaper solid copper cables....so basicially by chance. Take that for what it is with a grain of salt. Some will always believe cables make a HUGE difference, when IMO they don't. Focus on the speaker, amp equipment and the room acoustic/placement of speakers for optimal sound.

[Mig17]

I changed my internal wires, it gets better and better

[DL86]

Absolutly correct nicky

[scanido]

here is a picture of the 703 FST speaker:



more inside pictures here:

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29794475

Redhawk, if you want to improve your CM don't change the speakers, mod the filter, change the binding posts, the internal cables and dampen the case.

Regards
Yves

Great pics!!

Does anyone know if these are the same FST drivers found on the 800 series?

[hifiguymi]

They are close, but not the same. The 703. 683, and HTM61 all mount from the front. The 800 Series speaker all mount from the rear. The drivers are not exactly the same, but they are very close.

Eric

[DM3000 Owner]

B&W focus R&D mainly on 8th series, then they re-use some of the components on lower series.

For me, they develop the speakers to obtain the best possible result, then, they review them to reach the sound and the price they want to reach for the model range.

The 60x and 70x must also be quick and easy to build to offer a good price, and if they use parts as good as it is in 80x series, the final retail price will be much higher, closer to the above range.

By upgrading internal wire, solder instead of using many contact parts, and review filter components (and sometime schema), you maximize the potential of the speakers themselves.

In the case of my 705, I've spend approx 250$ for new parts, for a speaker that cost ~750$.

That could seems really expensive for some of you, but I can tell you that the quality jump is simply amazing.

I'll never change my 705 for 805, and my 703 for 803, I'll directlly jump to at least full 802D (with my actual electronics 80x will perhaps sound worse than my 70x).

But it's not always the case, sometimes the modded speakers doesn't sound better than before, and sometime it's even worse than before, so think twice before modding.

It also took me quite lot of time and tests to obtain a speaker that sound much better than before.

So I won't recommand to change filter components and internal wires on all speakers, these mods have a certain price if you use high end parts, and it will IMHO be kind of non sense to put more money to mod them than the price of the speakers.
Depending the speakers you have it's better to simply change them instead of modding them.

I have built many crossovers and B&W does not use high grade parts on the wiring, inductors and caps. Thin wire, regular solid wire inductors instead of Litz, inexpensive caps compared to what is used in the aftermarket.

I think that the Nautilus 800 series used Bennic caps which are pretty cheap (I heard that they even use some electrolytes) and the new 800 series use Clarity Caps which are pretty inexpensive but very high quality for the price (about the same price as Solens):

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

I just replaced all of the caps in my DM3000's with Clarity caps. The original caps were very cheap.

I need to replace a tweeter diaphragm in my friend's Matrix 801 and the B&W engineers told me that they use "plain old solder" instead of 4% silver.

I think that it is a "sum of the parts" thing so you probably do not want to obsess over cabling.

[Mark-n-b]

...the choice that people make that they think sounds better are about 50/50 between the expensive and the much cheaper solid copper cables...

Yeah, but you are unlikely to run solid cores between your amp and speakers hence the better stranded stuff. What about cheap stranded and expensive standed?

[Aldo]

After a 2500usd kymber speakers cables buy!
I can say...
I do not believe in cables anymore!

[Tommy]

After a 2500usd kymber speakers cables buy!
I can say...
I do not believe in cables anymore!

Wow! Even with your mighty system, you don't think it makes a difference? Please elaborate.

[Mig17]

Rotel electronics heavily depend on cables
About other electonics, I have no idea

[Aldo]

Wow! Even with your mighty system, you don't think it makes a difference? Please elaborate.

I do believe there is diference, maybe comparing silver with copper or comparing different gauges but there are limits where you are only buying snake oil.
Lets say you should never spend more than 10% of your sistem value in cables. For speaker cable you are more likely to hear changes if you get better gauge than if you buy a super duper twisted owner farted cable. :B
Oh! and try to keep them short!

[cug]

Rotel electronics heavily depend on cables
About other electonics, I have no idea

So you are a believer?

[PavelL]

I have built many crossovers and B&W does not use high grade parts on the wiring, inductors and caps. Thin wire, regular solid wire inductors instead of Litz, inexpensive caps compared to what is used in the aftermarket.

I think that the Nautilus 800 series used Bennic caps which are pretty cheap (I heard that they even use some electrolytes) and the new 800 series use Clarity Caps which are pretty inexpensive but very high quality for the price (about the same price as Solens):

I believe the new 800 series have mundorf capacitors - in fact crossovers are made by mundorf for B&W. M cap silver/gold supreme used on the diamond tweeters.. and those are THE finest caps available. At least that's what they say...

[Tommy]

I do believe there is diference, maybe comparing silver with copper or comparing different gauges but there are limits where you are only buying snake oil.
Lets say you should never spend more than 10% of your sistem value in cables. For speaker cable you are more likely to hear changes if you get better gauge than if you buy a super duper twisted owner farted cable. :B
Oh! and try to keep them short!

Ah.. got it! :T Thanks for the suggestion.

[DM3000 Owner]

I believe the new 800 series have mundorf capacitors - in fact crossovers are made by mundorf for B&W. M cap silver/gold supreme used on the diamond tweeters.. and those are THE finest caps available. At least that's what they say...

Is that the 800D or all of the 800 series?

There was a picture of an 800 series crossover posted and the caps looked like the Clarity Caps - which are very good.

I have seen manufacturers list that they use high quality caps such as Solen, which are relatiively inexpensive compared to other designer caps, but more expensive than no named caps.

On thing to remember is that it is the total circuit that counts.